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Posted by signa11 14 hours ago

How to keep enjoying programming in a world of LLMs(discourse.haskell.org)
136 points | 194 commentspage 4
tosh 14 hours ago|
Pick something you always wanted to learn more about and use LLMs to help you
teaearlgraycold 13 hours ago|
It just needs to be something where you can verify its information quickly enough.
plastic-enjoyer 13 hours ago||
I find it quite entertaining that programmers seem to find themselves in the same position as every other person that has hobbies that were once serious jobs but got automated away, and can't seem to connect the dots. How to keep enjoying programming? The same way as people that still make their own clothes, their own furniture, their own shoes, their own bread, and so on. They do it for themselves, for their own satisfaction and for the transformative potential doing things on your own has.
supaflybanzai 13 hours ago||
Is it really that hard to understand?

Same people that make clothes for fun usually do not work at sweatshops.

Some bakers started baking as a hobby, got really good at it, and then better tools and profit margins came about. Now they were forced to make low quality bread at work for 8 hours straight every day and seeing 90% of their colleagues that they considered pretty good bakers actually be fine with it.

How exciting do you think those bakers are to bake more bread at home after they go though slopping bread at work? How enthusiastic are they still about their hobby after a few years or a decade?

plastic-enjoyer 11 hours ago||
I don't see how LLMs change the picture then. The hobbyist who fell in love with programming didn't dream of Spring Boot configs, enterprise middleware or the Nth CRUD app either. There was already a huge gap between programming as a craft and programming as a job, and most people never had the privilege of working on anything particularly exciting or fun[1]. If your job is slop bread for 8 hours, and for most of us it already was, then the joy has to come from somewhere other than the job. That's the adjustment every one of those trades had to make.

[1] On another note, a lot of my friends who are professional musicians barely play or make music in their free time, apart from keeping their skills up.

supaflybanzai 6 hours ago||
I kind of agree. But I think LLMs just make it way worse than Sprint boot, enterprise middleware or anything similar ever could.

And I still very much like using LLMs for certain things. I do not miss Googling for hours to compile the right information.

Matl 13 hours ago|||
I don't think the analogy quite works. Hand crafted furniture etc. is still a valued skill, even commanding a premium price. I find it unlikely that hand crafted software will end up the same if the LLM generated one is cheaper and as far as most are concerned works sufficiently well.
plastic-enjoyer 11 hours ago||
Valued by whom? The market? Most people who craft as a hobby never sell a thing. They do it for the love of it. If something's only worth doing when someone pays a premium for it, boy, you're in for a hard time.
Matl 11 hours ago||
> Valued by whom? The market?

No. The people. You know, the Shown HN: I wrote a cool thing. Here's the thing on GitHub.

It's not about selling, it's about sharing and people appreciating it, using it, sharing tips to improve it. Most people who write FLOSS in their free time do it to solve their own problem first, but they also do it to share with others a cool thing they did etc.

> Most people who craft as a hobby never sell a thing

Sure. But they do craft for SOMEONE. Initially for themselves but at some point they want to show their skills to someone, even if only to family and friends. People are social animals.

I don't know that hand crafted software has the same appreciation as say woodworking.

plastic-enjoyer 11 hours ago||
> I don't know that hand crafted software has the same appreciation as say woodworking.

Yet. But I doubt you'll find that appreciation here on Hacker News, or on GitHub. You'll probably have to find a community of like-minded people who enjoy tinkering with software by hand, and those already exist, e.g. parts of the IndieWeb, or Lobsters. Posting your hand-crafted software here is a bit like a knitting enthusiast showing off their sweater at a textile industry trade fair.

physicallyIllfr 13 hours ago|||
You can also program by hand professionally. There's a reason why the handmade, luxery items are more valuable and desirable than the heavily manufactured counterpart.

1. Because they're genuinely better quality. Usually.

2. There's a human connection (way more important than people think. I.e commodity fetishism)

3. Less people can do it.

-- all of these properties will apply to software in the near future. The person that can hand code the thing an llm does poorly, or because an llm cant be trusted will be extremely valuable, especially as this category of people begins to shrink, as peoppe atrophy their skills with llms.

The rest of y'all are excited about handing over the value of your labor to some billionaires thinking machine because that same billionaire has convinced you that you're going to be able to create your own startup or something stupid.

Nah, you're going to become a (underpaid/poor) conveyor belt operator making mass manufactured slop. Some smart ones will become the swiss watchmakers of software. Rare and in demand.

na1026 13 hours ago||
These narratives are designed for people who want to see programmers taken down a peg. The truth is that LLM generated code is not sustainable and the people hawking it are operating recklessly.
gkcnlr 2 hours ago||
People just like to spill out their justifications on how they interact with ai and generally try to be agreeable in their comfort zones until they get bamboozled by actual market demands. No competitive structure is willing to pay more (to you) that could be replaced by lower cost means to maximize profits. This is basic economy 101. This article seems a huge cope to me IMHO regarding the advice it gives. Programming is mostly solved, although in a very anti-humane way IMHO. Hobbyist means could justify it in the remaining time...

I just pray open weight wins at the end and people actually utilize their ai and own their ai.

Ailogeneous 9 hours ago||
It doesn't matter how fast you're going if you're going in the wrong direction. Programming can still be a challenge with LLM's, but everyone is panicking and skipping the research portion.
jdw64 13 hours ago||
Still, isn't programming fine as a hobby? Honestly, when I program, I hand off the parts I don't want to do to AI, and these days I just do what I want to do. It seems like something worth doing as a hobby. At work, you're forced to use AI to meet deadlines, but as a hobby it seems perfectly good too.
teaearlgraycold 3 hours ago||
Look, I love code. I have laser cut code snippets framed on my walls. I functions that I have shared online proudly multiple times. I have projects I have lovingly tended to for years just for the joy of making a computer do something strange.

But what’s far far more important is making people happy by producing good software. Ever since my very first SWE internship I’ve cared most about the user. I’m extremely bummed if the user isn’t happy with my work. I’m ecstatic if my work can improve their day. LLMs change how my work gets done and what it is that my effort goes towards. But the core reason to be here instructing computers hasn’t changed.

nonasking_ 14 hours ago||
Thanks for sharing. It might also come down to whether we see programming as an end in itself or as a tool.
KevinMS 13 hours ago||
You could just not use LLMs?
sieve 13 hours ago||
I have been programming for 25+ years and the last year has been the most fun because every single useless-for-everyone-but-me idea ... I could spend a few hours on and get it working. Did 30-40 different small projects this year.[1] Mostly used by me (and some by a couple of friends).

I write software because I am interested in the final outcomes, not because I enjoy the journey, which is often infuriating because of the mistakes you make, or the crap you depend on to get your work done.

Whether people will still have jobs in three years, or thirty, only time will tell, but I feel people are kidding themselves if they think LLMs won't have an impact. We were fine with using machines to automate physical labor as we now balk at the same thing happening to the intellectual side of things.

I, personally, have done a complete volte-face as far as my views on the subject are concerned over the past year or so as I use LLMs more and more for coding and other tasks.

---

[1] There is this idea I have had of an Excel replacement: simple, purely functional, TSV-based spreadsheet with zero backward compatibility with styles as purely optional sidecar material that I have always wanted to do but lacked the time. Brainstormed a spec with Claude today. Might work on it in the near future.

okship 2 hours ago||
That's been my experience too. 7+ years in industry and lot more before, and I now finally feel like I have more time to do fun side projects. Some may say it is all about the journey, but i rather build for whoever is going to use it, even though it might only be for myself.
api 13 hours ago|||
Me too.

I used to enjoy the journey more. I feel like the explosion of insane complexity and layers and the mess of dependencies and all the rest ruined the fun of the journey long before AI came along.

Take user interfaces. Making one wasn’t so bad in the 90s or 2000s. Now it’s a hellscape of either bloated Electron or the shifting sands of native APIs that are all complex and special.

All of it imposes cognitive load that has nothing to do with the problem I want to solve and it foists ugliness on you. Before you can touch your problem you have to create all this boilerplate.

I can just have the bot do that crap now.

If I want to code for fun I can code only the parts that are fun.

na1026 13 hours ago||
[flagged]
123975 4 hours ago|
But there might be reasons you don’t want to be, e.g. you actually need to bring some real productiveness gain to the table, or you don’t want to be left behind while the rest of your team, your company, your industry, is moving towards heavy LLM adoption.

Oh sure, you are not an LLM bro! Honest!

The amount of new LLM articles that try to feed them like vegetables to a child is amusing and tragic at the same time.

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