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Posted by vinni2 7 hours ago

Plunging test scores are a slow-moving catastrophe(www.economist.com)
https://archive.ph/n8Akh
147 points | 279 commentspage 2
BobbyTables2 5 hours ago|
Gee, schools got rid of text books and ask only multiple choice questions on Math tests… They now also use AI to grade short essays.

I’d have been more surprised if there wasn’t any impact on learning.

ProjectArcturis 6 hours ago||
So many places to point our fingers:

-Everyone has screens.

-Education system broken.

-Covid disruptions

-Biological effects of Covid infections

notourproblem 1 hour ago||
- Browner
Lerc 6 hours ago||
I wouldn't know, the articles talking about the loss of learning are paywalled.
ketanmaheshwari 5 hours ago||
The writers of such articles too need to put food on the table.
Lerc 53 minutes ago||
They do indeed, but that does not make the method by which they choose to do so free of consequences.

Bank robbers, gun runners, and chiropractors also need to put food in the table.

frankbreetz 6 hours ago||
I find this article to be more interesting: https://www.economist.com/international/2026/09/08/are-teena...

Especially the part where it states that part of the issue is in 2000 when Finland had higher test scores then everyone it was attributed to play based learning and less testing. Everyone immediately jumped on this, because if you can have more fun and learn more, of course that is the way to go. This opinion still permeates both teachers and parents. I was of this opinion for a long time, as I went to a rigorous school, and would have enjoyed "play based learning".

It turns out this may have been way off and difficult schools such as those in China and Singapore have the best results. In the Finland example they had only recently switched from more rigorous to more play based, so the rigorous schooling was still being shown in testing. I think we were all a bit bamboozled by this. Maybe it seemed too good to be true and we should have been more critical of the findings. But the play based learning opinion is still strong and we as a society need to move back to more rigor will make stronger students.

Zigurd 5 hours ago||
Reductiveness is under the surface of many of these numbers. Finland has high teacher salaries, which is a contributing factor but entirely outside of the way teaching methodologies are evaluated.

Chinese students can work like fiends because they are in competition for a shortage of seats at elite universities. Not too surprisingly they burn out or they slack off once the pressure is off.

My personal experience with self-paced learning in middle school tells me that some students are capable of blazing through a curriculum at 3X the normal pace of classroom instruction, under no pressure at all. Technology can enable self paced learning, and it's really the only answer to scale it up. So it's hard to blame technology for screwing up education.

overgard 3 hours ago|||
Intuitively though at 40ish, most of the things I "learned" in school but never used have all fallen out of my head. The knowledge I have is things that I was actually excited to learn: computers, enough math to make computers do what I wanted, writing so I could socialize with other nerds better, history because I like history. Basically, you couldn't stop me from learning those things, but the things I was forced to learn ended up being somewhat of a waste of time for both me and the instructor, I think. I mean, you want to challenge kids a bit because they might resist something at first and then eventually realize they like it quite a bit (math for instance), but there's also a point where the tests mostly just become kayfabe. We say these people are doing "better" because they get a higher test score, but then they get into the real world where there is no test score, and that entire academic framework is kind of useless and maybe even harmful.
zozbot234 3 hours ago||
"Play based learning" is a huge misnomer, which is unfortunately common in unscientific academic fields like education. Any successful, intrinsically-motived learning is biologically categorized as "play" behavior; and knowledge-based, teacher-centered, direct instruction approaches (i.e. traditional schooling) are the most effective and most likely to be perceived as enjoyable "play" by a school pupil. So-called "play-based" or "student centered" approaches (i.e. expect the student to know what they're supposed to learn by themselves, while the teacher just slacks off) are merely a source of confusion and frustration for shoolkids.
analog31 5 hours ago|||
When my daughter was in kindergarten, it was common to walk your kids to school, then let them play in the playground while chatting with the other parents, until the bell rang.

One mom told me: "I like the American school. It's like Singapore, but with fewer beatings."

Ekaros 4 hours ago|||
In somewhere that period of Finland education system I remember there being testing. Just not large scale standardised testing. But everything did have tests. Still teachers did have quite large freedom even if criteria was state level. Also it was very much traditional lessons with only occasional small scale group work.

One impact for later time was increased immigration and challenges of integrating increasing amount non-native speakers in same system that used to have nearly exclusively native speakers.

sfblah 5 hours ago|||
Don't Finland, China and Singapore have the highest IQs of any countries? Why can't that be the answer? To me, what you do exactly in school is likely pretty secondary.
medler 2 hours ago|||
I don’t think reliable data exists for making these comparisons, but even if it did, how you perform on an IQ test is strongly influenced by your schooling.
t0mpr1c3 37 minutes ago||
Correct. The likely causality is in the reverse direction.
SubmarineClub 5 hours ago||
> Maybe it seemed too good to be true and we should have been more critical of the findings.

I mean, I always was. My rule has always been - if something seems too good to be true, it is.

This is my biggest issue with ‘progressive’ types. They always seem to get drawn in by hype and flash, and neglect to consider 2nd order effects. I’ve had an endless number of conversations with friends of this persuasion where I point out very very obvious problems with some hot new idea they are so enamored with, which they inevitably poo-poo as me being a mean old cynical conservative. And a few years later we end up with articles like above.

tancop 5 hours ago||
The whole system is built on the idea that kids will learn because we force them to for their own good. But I don't think you can get real understanding from that, you need internal motivation that comes from a true desire to know more.

I'm not saying lower test scores are good but they might be a sign that we need to move from "push based" forced complete education in childhood to a more "pull based" system. That would mean the only mandatory part is basic skills as opposed to knowledge, things like reading and arithmetic but also critical thinking, social skills, task organization and manual/mechanical work.

Everything else should be optional, fully up to the student (and their parents until they're 18) and available for their whole lifetime. That's the most important part.

If you go to an accounting school and decide to become a plumber after you graduate, then switch to programming at 30 and electrician at 45, you should be able to do that. Low cost, free if you're poor and always without social stigma, the exact same quality and credentials as if you did it in high school.

Sometimes you need to wait and experience life a bit before you understand how important your education is. We should support that instead of making it so you only have one real shot.

srj 5 hours ago||
The period after leaded gasoline was eliminated and before modern tech may go down as the peak of human intellect.

More specifically I wonder if the birth of social media in the form of short videos is the real culprit. Most other single causes don't line up even if I can believe they are a factor.

It seems like we should be able to adapt, but the dopamine hit of short videos may prove as difficult to manage as healthy eating and exercise in terms of self-discipline.

Henchman21 5 hours ago|
Just forget being able to adapt if you’re male, the videos have attractive women in various stages of undress, that auto-play one after another. You may find yourself in a daze drooling out of one corner of your mouth.
TFNA 1 hour ago||
Taking an intercity bus ride in Europe may disabuse you of the idea that short-form video is a threat to males specifically: you're likely to see from your seat several young women consuming short-form videos (often from beauty influencers) for the entire journey.
JohnMakin 6 hours ago||
Whole word reading has been a disaster.
t0mpr1c3 36 minutes ago||
Teaching phonics is one thing the English education system got right.
boelboel 6 hours ago|||
Not all countries changed to whole world reading at the same time.
analog31 5 hours ago||
Indeed, and some countries have whole word writing.
functionmouse 6 hours ago||
something something the purpose of a system is what it does
overgard 3 hours ago||
One thing that tends to get lost when we talk about the education system we have is how it was invented and what it was designed for. I mention this, because if you want to educate kids better, it's useful to consider what they system was designed for so we can design a better one. Unfortunately, the history here is somewhat more cynical and bleak than you might expect. There's an excellent book called "The Underground History Of American Education: A Schoolteacher's Intimate Investigation into the Problem of Modern Schooling"

Anyway, modern schooling was essentially designed to create excellent workers -- it was never about creating excellent individuals. At the time, the robber barons who helped invent this system along with a series of pseudo religious ideologues essentially wanted: standardized, predictable, obedient individuals without a lot of creativity. Credentials became important. Basically they wanted good consumers who don't question their station in life. (It shouldn't shock anyone that this is essentially what our current robber barons also want, although to a more extreme degree. It also shouldn't shock anyone that this is largely what we get out of the system.)

The current system was still helpful, despite it's design, I would argue mostly because of the excellent teachers that really do have kids best interests in heart. However, I really think technology has just completely broken this. I'm not sure it's a system that can be repaired, I think it's going to end up being a new system. My guess (I think it's basically already happening) is the rich will send their children to more experimental schools because they have the money, and the poor... well who cares about the poor anyway? (Sarcasm, but, I think that more or less describes the unspoken attitudes of the elites)

chairmansteve 3 hours ago||
Apparently test scores are rising in England....
zkmon 5 hours ago||
It's a cycle. Affluence of food, goods and tech removes natural survival instincts due to lack of struggle and need. That would cause the affluence to go away, rekindling the survival instincts through struggle. The cycle repeats. Different geographies have different phase delays in this cycle. Sometimes the cycle is affected by artificial forces such as dominance of a nation and it's control over the global matters. But the cycle just pushes forward.
cs702 6 hours ago|
Isn't education the best antidote we have against misinformation, against ignorance, against hateful ideologies, against our least civilized impulses?

Is it possible to have a civilization that works well, with institutions that work well, if the population is poorly educated?

Sigh.

frogperson 5 hours ago||
Many, many times through out history knowledge and education have been destroyed to prop up some group that want to rule.
boelboel 4 hours ago|||
Better chance it's the reverse, civilized societies end up educating people.
cvwright 3 hours ago|||
The counterpoint to this is that early 20th century Germany was one of the most advanced, sophisticated, and educated countries in the world.

In fact the genocide only stopped when a bunch of unsophisticated American (and Russian) farmboys rolled in.

cs702 1 hour ago||
> was one of the most advanced, sophisticated, and educated countries in the world

It was also an economic disaster. Surely that contributed.

t0mpr1c3 28 minutes ago||
WWI was the cataclysm that destroyed the global economy.

(Its aftermath was a necessary transition, that happened to be disastrously mismanaged.)

The current proponents of new "realism" who claim that regional empires will co-exist in peace would do well to study the causes of WWI.

maomao5 6 hours ago||
> Is it possible to have a civilization that works well, with institutions that work well, if the population is poorly educated?

Yes, for some definition of "works well" but the population has to be tightly controlled. It's why the oligarchich elite is so enthused to build out the surveillance state at the same time.

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