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Posted by yarapavan 12 hours ago

You said no MCP(earendil.com)
570 points | 325 comments
alin23 9 hours ago|
Lately I found MCP to be much more than a coding tool. For example, I implemented it in my more complex macOS apps [0] like rcmd, Clop, Lunar, so they can be configured by natural language.

So even with a local Qwen and Pi you can now say things like:

    Set up Clop to optimise any PNG that I drop in my website assets folder and convert to a webp with the same name near it

    Get Crank to start Time Machine backups immediately when I connect my HDD and notify me when the backup is done.

    I want to be able to hold rcmd and fuzzy search and focus cmux agent panes
BetterTouchTool has a great MCP which can create native SwiftUI views and bind them to hotkeys, trackpad gestures etc. It can leverage its immense macOS automation tools and private APIs to let agents do Computer Use.

You would need a much more capable coding model to code those tools from scratch and get the same fail-safe logic that the apps have honed over the years.

Like, since MCP, Crank [1] has fully replaced my use of crontab, launchd, scattered scripts I run once a week. Not that it could not do that before, but it's so much simpler now to just describe the automation and have it happen reliably and visible in the UI. The friction is gone.

[0] https://reddit.com/r/macapps/comments/1wkv0dy/mcp_in_macos_a...

[1] https://lowtechguys.com/crank

mike-cardwell 4 hours ago||
I gave claude an API key for Home Assistant. I can tell it to create dashboards, set up automations, diagnose problems etc, all using natural language. No MCP needed.

Yesterday I received a new thermometer for my aquarium to replace an old broken one. Both were bluetooth, but different models. I just told claude "I'm going to set up up my new bluetooth thermometer for my fish tank in a few minutes, keep an eye out for it and replace the old broken one with it in Home Assistant" and then walked away and put a battery in it and put it in my aquarium.

When I came back it had found it, replaced all my existing entities for the broken one with the new one, and verified it was all working with my existing graphs and automations.

FrinkleFrankle 3 hours ago|||
MCP is a tool more for security than anything else. If you give your agents access to an API key, there's a chance they can accidentally or maliciously leak that key. If the MCP server has access to the keys instead, it takes that possibility away. That's not always something you need to care about, but it is very important for some people's threat model.
cheema33 2 hours ago|||
> MCP is a tool more for security than anything else.

The agent can get to the resource through the MCP server or using API key. I personally do not see the benefit MCP is providing here. Sure you can reduce the exposed surface at MCP layer, but I do that at the API layer. I don't need to add another layer here.

I can kinda understand if you do not have control of the API layer and/or you have to expose the API layer to the public Internet as well. Most of the time that is not the case for me.

anamexis 1 hour ago||
The idea is that with an MCP, the agent doesn’t have access to any credentials. It can’t leak an API key.
spellboots 48 minutes ago||
There are many ways to do this without using mcp, for example one of the many proxy servers that inject the token into requests. I use a custom solution that redacts all secrets to agent transcripts before the agent sees them in a hook.

I find it way better to be able to confidently tell agents to use CLIs than worrying about partially implemented mcps that need configuration and are often yolo’d with npx @latest anyway

Toutouxc 3 hours ago|||
Sooo, how does the agent authenticate with the MCP server?
wiether 2 hours ago|||
My own approach is to put the API key in the MCP server, apply principle of least privilege there, and firewall access to MCP with agents being on same private network with Tailscale.

Not only giving an API key to an agent can leak to the model because of harness issues or too broad reading rights, but also most providers don't give the ability to apply principle of least privilege to an API key.

I don't want to give an agent full R/W access to any of my services/accounts.

c-hendricks 2 hours ago||||
The agent doesn't, the harness does. It's separate from a normal conversation / agent runtime environment. How do you suspect auth keys can leak from an MCP that's been added to chatgpt.com?
dandelany 2 hours ago||||
With a different key, obviously. This lets you keep the MCP server firewalled to your local network only while still allowing home assistant itself to access the internet
SV_BubbleTime 2 hours ago|||
You give it a key of course! And if that doesn’t fit your security model and threat vectors, simply give the key to another MCP.
ash_091 35 minutes ago||||
Verging away from the topic, but I've found Claude is a great addition to HA. I want smart home features, but don't have the time/inclination to learn HA's way of working. Historically I just defaulted to Google Home because it was easier, but with Claude I barely need to touch HA configuration at all.

Recently I wanted to set up a slightly complex routine involving some lights and a couple of motion sensors. It feels like magic to be able to describe the behavior I want, briefly discuss the implementation, and walk past the sensor and see it in action.

Vegenoid 2 hours ago||||
One of the key points of the comment you replied to is that you don’t need a very powerful model to do MCP stuff, such as local Qwen. The “let the agent figure it out” approach works much better with powerful models, such as Claude (which you mentioned you are using).
mike-cardwell 1 hour ago||
So MCP is useful until cheap models get better?
30minAdayHN 3 hours ago||||
I +1 this approach. We are doing similarly. Instead of providing MCP, we are simply providing API key and documentation. Folks are able to then just paste that link and use our service.

User will interact or build apps with simply text like: "Give me all the issues that are X, context: https://somedomain.com/llm.txt"

llm.txt will have all the API instructions

alin23 4 hours ago||||
That's smart! That reminds me, I have to get back into HomeAssistant. I had my whole house through it a few years ago, but the complexity and things breaking in hard to debug ways made the experience too frustrating for my wife and visiting relatives.

Having an agent keep an eye on stuff and fix things proactively should make the experience much better. Plus I can no longer write yamls at last.

mithr 3 hours ago||
Developing for HA with Claude has been great. Not only can it make all of those yaml changes based on natural language goals, but it's so easy now to create a custom dashboard or configure various apps. I was struggling with both the ChoreOps docs and its fairly cumbersome interface until I pointed Claude at it and told it what I was trying to do.
c-hendricks 3 hours ago||||
> No MCP needed

Definitely helps that the home assistant api is documented online most likely in the training data.

matt_heimer 2 hours ago||
One of the nice things about MCP is that the tools have descriptions that provide guidance to the LLM. You can provide documentation in other formats like OpenAPI but its nice that the documentation is so closely coupled with MCP servers.
cheema33 2 hours ago||
> One of the nice things about MCP is that the tools have descriptions that provide guidance to the LLM.

It is more of a curse than a blessing. MCP pollutes agent context even when you are not using it. Use a manually invoked skill instead if you don't want to be wasting tokens on every turn and bloating up agent context making it dumber in the process.

c-hendricks 1 hour ago||
> MCP pollutes agent context even when you are not using it

MCP in some harnesses bloats context. MCP in some harnesses doesn't bloat context.

thebruce87m 4 hours ago|||
How are you interacting with Claude for this?
mike-cardwell 2 hours ago|||
I just run claude's cli tool?
SV_BubbleTime 2 hours ago|||
Same question… but I would assume he’s running Claude Code on a PC that is on the same network.
taylor-tg 8 hours ago|||
I just wanted to say thank you for making the tools that you have either free, or very reasonably priced. ZoomHider, MusicDecoy, YellowDot, and IsThereNet are some of the first things I install on my/my family's Macs (often before even Homebrew).

They're so powerful and yet get out of your way when you're not using them. I couldn't imagine being without them. Thanks y'all!

alin23 8 hours ago|||
Hey thank you! Always nice to hear when my work helps others ^_^
alsetmusic 6 hours ago||
Love Lunar. Love it.
rudcodex 5 hours ago|||
Had no idea that MusicDecoy existed! I just had music app pop up by accident too. Thank you for pointing those apps out
gojogs 7 hours ago|||
Hi! I've dabbled in implementing an MCP server/client back in March. To me a proper REST API and/or cli tool seems sufficient enough, agents use them with good efficiency. Any reason not to provide CLI or REST interface for your tools, but MCP for agents specifically?
alin23 6 hours ago|||
In my apps, CLI came first which works through Mach ports as the IPC, so the "REST equivalent" of macOS apps is also present. MCP takes advantage of the same client-server architecture I created for the CLI, so there's nothing you can't do with the CLI that needs an MCP.

But in my case, a CLI was not enough.

Like, to the MCP I might say:

    Set Clop to make every video copied in ~/shots smaller, 2x and silent 
Then the MCP can use elicitation and say:

    By smaller, you mean re-encode to compress file size (factor can be 0 to 100 max compression) or downscale resolution (100% same size, 50% half size)? 
    And does 2x mean faster speed? In which case do you want to keep frames so the video plays smoother or drop frames for size? Or does 2x mean upscale? 
And the agent will present those as nice choice menus I can decide schematically on.

With the CLI I have to first read, learn and memorize the requests and commands needed for each app, the accepted values and formats and the steps to reach a specific result.

There's only so much space in my head I can leave for implementation details of arbitrary apps. I'd rather have an agent care about that.

And yes I get the irony, those are my apps, I coded them by hand for years, I should know their implementation details, yet even I forget if I should pass 50% or 0.5 for half size.

Btw Clop is a media file compressor for context: https://lowtechguys.com/clop

DrammBA 5 hours ago||
You answered "Why use MCP with your agent instead of using CLI manually?" but the more interesting question is "Why build an MCP when you could already point your agent to the CLI?". The user experience of "the agent will present those as nice choice menus I can decide schematically on" will probably be the same since agents are very adept at using cli tools and gathering required/optional arguments, examples, and warnings/errors to present you with useful choices on how to proceed.
alin23 5 hours ago||
The most important reason is that I can keep the CLI output and help for humans, while the MCP can be crammed with information for agents.

Plus I can add some complex commands like in the rcmd Stages [1] case where the agent can create a 4 monitor layout with apps and windows placed where you want, with every window opening the document/folder/project/URL you want and running the terminal commands you need. Sure you can do that with the CLI, but it's hard enough to get right because of shell quoting issues, that even an agent can get it wrong.

For simple tasks though, sure, the CLI is just enough and the agent can use it without needing to install yet another MCP. You'll know when you need it.

[1] https://lowtechguys.com/rcmd

---

EDIT: I just remembered, you can even hook the Claude/Codex/Gemini desktop app to the MCP, while you can't get it to use the CLI. so there's that for users that still don't feel comfortable at a terminal, which is a number higher than you might estimate.

brabel 6 hours ago||||
How do they authenticate to your API?? Do you want to ask normal people to store an API key and remember to rotate it every so often?
anthonypasq 6 hours ago|||
agents dont always have access to a terminal. why is this so difficult to imagine
asveikau 4 hours ago|||
> Set up Clop to optimise any PNG that I drop in my website assets folder and convert to a webp with the same name near it

This seems like exactly the sort of thing I've done with shell scripts or even makefiles.

alin23 4 hours ago|||
Nothing in there is innovative or unattainable, Clop uses open source tools behind the scenes anyway so obviously you can replicate it with scripts.

But this is for people that already use the app, researchers, writers, students, people that aren't necessarily comfortable with a terminal. And given Clop already implements the basics: an efficient file events watcher, tuned encoders for the Mac silicon, fail safe backups and UI for seeing the result and interacting with it in real time, it has advantages over trying to do it yourself.

asveikau 4 hours ago||
I'm not intending to denigrate your tool. I'm just commenting on the "look at how we go full circle" aspect.

I will point out that the shell script way uses less resources than an LLM making a tool call. But I understand that these scenarios are not necessarily meant for the same user.

alin23 4 hours ago||
No offense taken, I can see the irony myself :)

Oh for sure, I would prefer to have the automations as invisible things running at the system level, doing exactly what I want and nothing else, not wasting resources on UIs and event watchers I might not need. I would get rid of my own apps if that was easy to do.

But it seems we need to waste some resources to get some usability in return.

weego 4 hours ago||
This is how engineers end up justifying why my doorbell needs to contact the cloud to confirm it should run when someone is at my door.
kccqzy 3 hours ago|||
I used to do that using the macOS builtin Folder Actions. People forget these exist. Pure GUI.
alin23 2 hours ago||
I had no idea this was a thing: https://developer.apple.com/library/archive/documentation/Ap...

Definitely saving it for further use, I sometimes need to have small invisible watchers and I don't want a full fledged app or shell scripts for that.

kccqzy 59 minutes ago||
That guide seems like an extremely roundabout way of doing things. Just open Automator and use the GUI.
selicos 5 hours ago|||
So you found them useful to script what other open source tools can do with basic automation tools? How is any of this unique to MCP?

Why is AI involved for any other reason than building the original test implementation?

alin23 5 hours ago|||
This is for giving the existing users of my apps the ability to describe what they want the app to do without having to navigate and learn the UI.

Not sure if you got the right context, your question doesn't really make sense to me.

sublinear 5 hours ago|||
I find it exciting that the dust is finally settling.

We're back onto the original use cases for natural language processing. This is where all the value always was, and now the market has proven to itself what anyone with even a bachelor's in computer science already knew.

_fat_santa 6 hours ago|||
Where I found MCP's really useful is integrating with "consumer AI" (chatgpt.com, claude.ai, etc).

I'm working on a sideproject called Rowbly[1]. It acts as a sharable data store where LLM's can dump research rather than keeping it in their memory or throwing it into a spreadsheet.

At first I thought "I don't need an MCP, I'll just expose a CLI" but that carries a pretty big limitation in that it only works with agents on your computer (Codex, Claude Code, Pi, etc). For the folks on here this is not an issue and is often times preferable but I'm also targeting the average LLM user that primarily interfaces with it via "consumer AI" and with those tools the stuff you can do is very very limited.

I still think MCP's have a long way to go maturity wise and hey maybe in a few years we will figure out a better way to do things but for now, if you want to interact with consumer AI apps, there's just no way around using them.

[1]: https://rowbly.com

tentacleuno 5 hours ago|||
I use rcmd daily (and have just taken the time to dial in the configuration, it works even better now!) and I have to say that it's wonderful. It makes using the computer so much faster and easier: with window scripts too, it's like magic.

There were some teething problems on Golden Gate: keystrokes didn't seem to make it to the rcmd popup, but your recent remediations seem to have solved it. It's a beta OS version too, of course :-)

alin23 5 hours ago||
Thank you! Yes, macOS 27 continues to be a pain with the all new rewritten window manager.

Still working on finding all the edge cases, so sorry if you still encounter problems there. I've been using it since June and still find problems in input handling.

Like there's this thing, where if an app has Accessibility Permissions and listens to key events (like rcmd does) and then you revoke that permission while the app is running, then your whole system will stop responding to keys and clicks. Until you kill the app in question, but how are you going to do that without a keyboard?

All apps have this problem, even established ones like BTT, because it's a recently introduced macOS behavior in how the internals of CGEventTap work.

selicos 5 hours ago||
Oh it's MacOS.
astrange 4 hours ago|||
> Get Crank to start Time Machine backups immediately when I connect my HDD and notify me when the backup is done.

Is that not how it works out of the box?

alin23 4 hours ago||
Not really. macOS may wait for idle time, may prioritize internal disk and the backup will go extremely slow on an HDD, there's no notification whatsoever.

It's a very specific thing for me really, I connect the HDD specifically for doing backups as fast as possible then I want to disconnect and store it back so I can keep using my laptop. I don't have a desk anymore where I can keep these things connected all the time.

giancarlostoro 7 hours ago|||
I guess the best way I would put it is that MCP is an RPC for any software in a way that an LLM could interface with easier. Since MCP etc can work with things like Blender.
alin23 6 hours ago||
Yep like a self-documenting RPC since you don't have to read docs first to use it. You just ask.
anthonypasq 7 hours ago||
This has been what everyone who has supported MCP has been telling people, but coders just endlessly screeched about how CLIs are better.

Everyone on this forum has an absolute paucity of imagination when it comes to applying LLMs to any use case that doesnt involve coding.

vorticalbox 7 hours ago|||
I think the issue is that any mcp could be a cli and llms are very good and using bash.

Of course MCP has its use case like if you want auth, or session based actions.

anthonypasq 7 hours ago||
> any mcp could be a cli

NO IT CANT!!! why dont you understand that not all agents have access to a terminal!

jasomill 6 hours ago|||
This isn't restricted to agents. It's generally annoying when any service I may want to use programmatically is exposed through a CLI but not an API. Sure, I can call a CLI from most programming languages, but I/O beyond arguments and return values is at best awkward, and especially on non-UNIX OSes performance can suffer due to process creation overhead for every command.

Recent example: The AWS CLI has a convenient "s3 sync" command that does a one-way directory sync, only downloadiong new files if existing files with matching sizes and timestamps don't exist, but the closest thing the .NET SDK has unconditionally overwrites destination files.

Another example: one of the nicest things about C# is how the compiler exposes itself as extensive library functionality, so, not only can I compile and run code at runtime, I can generate this code from programmatically created ASTs instead of text, parse expressions into ASTs, etc.

jameshart 5 hours ago||||
Yes - Or a working directory that’s under version control where they can write arbitrary memory files and maintain working state across contexts.

These are things devs often take for granted as being part of ‘how chat agents operate’ but they are specific to how claude code/opencode/pi/codex operate.

Giving agents a Unix computer account they can play with is definitely a powerful tool that makes them capable of doing a lot more (see: meta muse, OpenAI dots), in much the same way that giving a human a computer they are trained to use makes them way more capable… but it’s surely not the only way we can run these things.

nimih 4 hours ago|||
you probably shouldn't complain about people "screeching" when this is the tone you respond to calm, measured discussion with.
anthonypasq 4 hours ago||
im only bothered by people screeching about things that are wrong.
pjmlp 6 hours ago|||
Some coders, those that equate being a developer with UNIX, mostly.

They pay tons of money for hardware, only to use it the same way I was using those DG/UX terminals at the university.

Naturally there are no coders in other operating systems as well.

gk1 6 hours ago||
Props to the team not only for changing their minds from a strongly-held belief but making it very public and not hiding the fact that it's a reversal.

The linked post from Armin is gold:

"... whenever you are confronted with a very strong opinion about a topic, reasonable discussions about the topic often involve arguments that have long become outdated or are no longer strictly relevant to the conversation."

(https://lucumr.pocoo.org/2016/11/5/be-careful-about-what-you...)

And that's from 2016! These days if you're arguing from a position you took even a week ago, you already might be out of sync.

yieldcrv 4 hours ago|
> "... whenever you are confronted with a very strong opinion about a topic, reasonable discussions about the topic often involve arguments that have long become outdated or are no longer strictly relevant to the conversation."

Thats my observation when people retort “whataboutism” in usually a geopolitical context

Its not ever clear to me that people are aware that their own country or a place they respect engages in the same practice as the place they are denigrating

Like, sure I would like both places to fix their problem but dont you have better things to do like fix your own?

CharlieDigital 9 hours ago||
This was the easiest call and many like me made it in March[0] among all of the anti-MCP wave of influencers claiming it dead (many, many prominent folks in tech including Garry Tan). Literally every tech influencer in every social feed in March was calling MCP dead and crowning CLI the winner (completely ignoring every reasonable argument around security, observability/telemetry, ease of deployment and operations, etc.)

A direct quote from March, 2026[1]:

    > If you’re still not convinced that a lot of this discourse [regarding the death of MCP] lacks nuance and is just hype, congrats on buying into the current AI-influencer FOMO hype cycle; see you in 6 months when the influencers move on to the next revelation of the moment to stay relevant and get your eyeballs and dollars.
It was fairly obvious why MCP would be needed once AI engineering and uptake moved beyond the solo developer and single harness stack of "what works for Me" versus "what works for My Team", particularly in an enterprise context. The key mistake people made was thinking in terms of their own workflows and own local stacks instead of a team's workflow and a team's operational stack. There was also an ignorance of MCP's stateless HTTP mode (yes, it was already a thing in March; the 2026-07-28 revision of the spec just prioritizes it as the primary focus moving forward) versus local `stdio`.

My biggest complaint right now is that OpenAI has still refused to implement the MCP Prompts spec[2] and in general, the major clients have spotty implementation for some of the features in the spec.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=47380270

[1] https://chrlschn.dev/blog/2026/03/mcp-is-dead-long-live-mcp/

[2] https://github.com/openai/codex/issues/5059

Aurornis 8 hours ago||
Everyone is so afraid of being left behind in this period of rapid AI change. The influencers are exploiting that to create anxiety and fear of missing trends.

I follow several influencers from pre-AI times who were (or were trying to become) social influencers thought leader types. People like Theo or many of the JavaScript and training course people. Following them was helpful to follow the trends that more chronically online juniors would be picking up and pushing at the workplace, which set me up in a better position to understand and then defend against it.

All of them, every single one, have dropped their previous influencer topic and pivoted to being AI influencer. Every time I see a post they’re either saying you need to adopt a new trend or that last month’s trend is dead. “Prompting is dead! Graphs are the future!” or “Claude Code is OVER! This new harness is 10X better”

MCP was one of these topics. Everyone went from telling you that you needed to use MCP or be left behind, to declaring that MCP was dead almost in unison.

The only pro-MCP holdouts were the influencers who had built their own MCP courses for sale.

ambicapter 7 hours ago||
It kind of repulses me when these people will make a video about anti-AI sentiment and splice in an ad for an AI tool at the halfway mark.
cyberge99 7 hours ago||
Do content creators have a lot of say over what advertising gets spliced in to their creation?
Aurornis 6 hours ago|||
Spliced in likely refers to ads they splice into their own videos, which they control completely. The platform ads are separate from the video and the creators do not have control over what is shown.
ambicapter 5 hours ago|||
Yes. I'm talking about the sponsored segment where the creator reads ad copy of whoever's sponsoring that episode that day.
rajeevk 8 hours ago|||
> My biggest complaint right now is that OpenAI has still refused to implement the MCP Prompts spec

MCP servers provide three things: tools, resources, and prompts. Of these, tools seem to be the only part implemented consistently across major clients like ChatGPT, Claude.ai, Claude Code, etc.

For prompts and resources, there doesn't seem to be a common understanding of how clients are supposed to consume them.

For example, if an MCP server exposes resources, Claude Code can discover them and consume them when needed without you explicitly asking for a specific resource. Claude.ai behaves differently. It doesn't automatically discover and consume those resources. Instead, it gives you a way to manually add an MCP resource to the prompt.

So while MCP defines tools, resources, and prompts at the protocol level, the actual user experience for resources and prompts varies quite a bit across clients.

hobofan 8 hours ago|||
In practice, the problem with resources is that many resource collections are too large to list exhaustivley, and if that's the case you will need to need to implement a proper search tool anyways (as the Completions utility isn't a good fit), at which point there is little use in also implementing all of that as a resource, rather than `list_`,`search_`,`get_` for a resource.
crooked-v 5 hours ago||
That feels like it should be the obvious use case for something like a `?q` query param, formalized or not, but it seems like nobody working on the spec and libraries ever considered query params as a use case, since they're still broken in the Typescript library.
spennant 8 hours ago||||
The idea of "model controlled", "application controlled" and "user controlled" for tool, resources and prompts (respectively) was aligned with the chat interface. It breaks for the autonomous agent paradigm where the agency is the user and the lines are blurred. Unfortunately MCP has been mostly relegated to tool calling leaving potentially powerful capabilities on the table due to lac of client support for them.
CharlieDigital 8 hours ago||||
I disagree on Prompts since virtually all of the mainstream harnesses implement them: Cursor, Claude, OpenCode, Copilot. Prompts are very clearly just a remotely delivered `/` command and it is easy to see why this is really powerful (single entry point, no need to update/sync skills, dynamic sets by audience, dynamic construction of the payload by audience, etc). For all intents and purposes, it should be viewed as an analog to local, text-only skills.

Codex is the only mainstream harness that does not implement this in the client.

justinhj 7 hours ago||||
Prompts I am not that sold on but it seems silly to not implement it in clients.

A good use case for resources is small amounts of commonly needed state that can be fetched and proactively updated by the mcp server, saving latency when the model requests it.

CharlieDigital 2 hours ago|||
Prompts is possibly one of the most useful enterprise features for MCP.

Dynamically target sets of `/` commands to teams in an enterprise by their identity+claims? Legal team gets a set of skills? Finance team gets another just by their roles? Always up-to-date delivery of what are effectively remotely served skills? Telemetry on who is using which skill? Server-side rendering of skills so that common skills can be composed? With placeholders replaced by user- or team-custom options? Easy to ship new skills as long as the user has connected the MCP? Easy to retire skillsets that are outdated across the entire enterprise?

MCP Prompts is one of the most powerful capabilities in the spec for enterprises.

OpenAI team: if you are angling for enterprise, you need to get this solved. Your FDEs are going to make a killing getting this set up for enterprises. Build an enterprise skills management platform around this that's integrated to their directory. Streamlined setup of the MCP via MDM. Telemetry on enterprise wide usage of curated skills across the enterprise, by team, by individual. You need this.

politician 5 hours ago|||
An MCP server should be self-describing, so I use prompts to deliver skills or skill-like context.
ianjbutler 4 hours ago|||
[dead]
bmurphy1976 7 hours ago|||
To be fair, the MCPs of 8 months ago are not the MCPs of today. You had to mess around with headers and .env files and local npm proxies and other bullshit only cli jockeys would tolerate. The MCPs of today are fully remote, stateless, oauth enabled, and integrated much more nicely into the the user experience. Click a button and it works.

I do agree, the "MCPs are dead" narrative was overblown, but there were legit reasons we weren't ready to go all in on them back then.

everforward 7 hours ago|||
I’m still not entirely sold. I do hear you about team workflows, I’m just not sure MCP does that dramatically better (as of today).

I can see the snap appeal. One protocol, we can chuck an auth reverse proxy in front of all the MCPs, compliance has their integration point, etc.

I don’t think MCP is structured enough to give a huge edge over bash there. Looking at MCP messages, they aren’t immediately more legible than a bash command, output and exit code. You also don’t own a lot of the MCP servers you use, so backtracking for audits will require knowing what MCP commands did what back then.

I do suspect something more like MCP than bash will be the winner. MCP just feels very open source rather than enterprise. Eg I don’t think I’ve seen any sort of privilege escalation and logging scheme. The enterprise will want some sort of “request admin privileges” scheme. Likewise they’ll probably want more context on ACP requests; who is calling this MCP, using what agent, and for what project?

CharlieDigital 2 hours ago|||
MCP is about the server side, not the client side.

MCP over HTTP buys you server side telemetry, composability, remotely held credentials (security), etc.

MCP is about enterprise control of the server side; no advantages on the client side at all.

brabel 6 hours ago|||
You’re out of the loop! I’ve myself implemented access escalation on top of MCP and it’s not rocket science. It’s already being used by Enterprise everywhere!
stymaar 8 hours ago|||
With stateless MCP, the MCP rube goldberg everyone was calling dead in March is effectively dead though.
CharlieDigital 5 hours ago||
MCP was already stateless capable in March. All the build I was doing was already stateless HTTP (which is why it felt certain that it was the future).
jollyllama 6 hours ago|||
These reason why they were proclaiming MCP dead and crowning CLI the influencer is that they aren't serious people. They're either vibe coders who never knew what the meaning of engineering for production or they are those who chose to forget the meaning because it fits their chosen vibe coder narrative.
bluegatty 4 hours ago|||
Decent point - but - the same could be said for skills. You can have enterprise skills that don't require use of MCP.
CharlieDigital 2 hours ago||
Sure, but now you have a distribution and telemetry challenge.

It's hard to customize those skills. How can I tweak my skill a bit to match my workflow? With MCP Prompts over HTTP, this is easy: you can server render the text with my personalization specific to me.

It's hard to tell which skills are being used. With MCP over HTTP, each Prompt call, each Tool call is an HTTP request and you get telemetry on activation. You can server compose the response and ask the agent requesting it to return a score on how useful it is, too. Or ask it to call another endpoint to rate the skill.

Enterprise skills delivered to the disk you cannot do this. If a skill is flawed or outdated, you cannot revoke the skill at an enterprise level. MCP Prompts: it's easy to do.

bluegatty 2 hours ago||
"It's hard to customize those skills."

I don't see what you mean?

An MCP and a skill are just two ways of distributing capabilities.

For telemetry ... well the agent should still have it's http logs? Also, I'm not sure MCP Telemetry is the primary point of concern for most things? Like thats a skill debugging thing?

CharlieDigital 19 minutes ago||
I sync a skill in a file with my repo. I can't edit that skill. I can't combine that skill. I can't customize the skill without affecting the other folks on my team or I have to put that in a gitignore.

A user getting a skill via a plugin and wants to keep it in sync with the source has the same problem. Next update/sync wipes out their changes.

Skills delivered via file system download/git are like Deck.final.v2.real-final.2026-10-01.published.pptx. Skills delivered via MCP over HTTP are "live" and dynamic.

An HTTP MCP server is just a server returning text. The MCP prompt can be a template. It can have placeholders. I can build a UI to allow the user who logs in to customize the prompt/skill by filling in the placeholders. If they don't put a value for the placeholder, I render it to the HTTP response stream with defaults. I can dynamically render the skill, tailored for each user like I can render JSON or HTML for each logged in user. MCP Prompts just returns text. I can render any text I want on a server. I can return a different, more suitable skill text for the user. I can personalize it based on their workflow. The base template is always up to date for every user, etc.

Try it. Go write an MCP HTTP endpoint delivering a prompt. Now make that dynamic and serve different text back based on different users. Now your users are in different teams. Render variants of the same prompt/skill by team. It's powerful.

Use your imagination.

AznHisoka 9 hours ago|||
Yep, number of new MCP servers this month is on track to be the highest it has ever been: https://bloomberry.com/data/mcp/
CharlieDigital 9 hours ago||
"MCP" is the new "API" (MCP over streaming HTTP, after all, is just an API with a structured payload wrapper and defined interactions).

It is only going to continue to proliferate in usage and adoption.

Eldodi 9 hours ago||
With the v2 spec, MCP became a lot closer to APIs by becoming stateless. And there is now a push to use HTTP verbs more extensively to improve caching even better in v3. MCP is converging into APIs but wit great auth and auditing
Zambyte 8 hours ago||
... Are both of you using "API" as a synonym for "REST"?
jazzypants 8 hours ago|||
It's annoying, but that's been pretty common for the last decade. It's just like how everyone uses "REST" to mean "JSON RPC". In the end, we all basically know what the other ones are talking about, so it's pretty pointless to get bogged down in semantics.
imtringued 8 hours ago||||
This is the worst moment in time to talk about "REST".

Do you mean the Roy Fielding "REST" or the HTTP API "REST"?

Calling the latter "REST" is wrong. It's like calling a hermit crab a snail.

Edit: I forgot to mention, the former is gaining relevance as the elusive evolvable clients are now a thing.

jazzypants 8 hours ago||
I'm not trying to be a dick, but it's pretty hilarious that we made these two posts at the exact same time [0]. I totally get what you're saying, but I don't understand the motivation behind it. A properly designed HTTP API is what Roy Fielding was discussing in his dissertation, but he was obviously talking about HTML pages full of hyperlinks. At the end of the day, does it really matter much if the definition is only 80% correct if the majority of the population understands the basic gist of the conversation?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49908582

imtringued 8 hours ago||
Unironically, Roy Fielding had a point.

If you can build the ultimate evolvable client, then you can collapse all UI into a single client.

Basically Roy Fielding told us to build an API that can only be operated by a human like intelligence, nobody could implement that because such an intelligence did not exist (hence the switch to imperfect HTTP APIs), and now that LLMs are a thing, said human like intelligence exists. This means Roy Fielding wasn't wrong, he was 25 years too early and ironically people should be building real REST APIs in the pendantic academic sense from today on and not the "pragmatic" HTTP API.

leptons 1 hour ago||||
"REST" is one of many way to implement APIs.
natpalmer1776 8 hours ago|||
Seems like in this context API means HTTP API lol
deadbabe 8 hours ago|||
There is no reason to think about team workflows. Focus on your workflow. Your own custom local workflow is basically your competitive advantage as an employee. The moment everyone else can do exactly the same things you do, there is no reason to really keep you around.

The game has changed in the AI era. Horde secrets, skills, custom processes. Don’t share everything. Stop giving things away or you will have nothing left.

moonsu 8 hours ago||
If that works for you great but I am where I am in my career by helping everyone I can around me. Making my team and the company better pays dividends and you stand out from people that only work for themselves.
deadbabe 7 hours ago||
This is now an outdated mentality in the AI era, where people will quickly use whatever you put out to make themselves better but little to no benefit will return to you beyond maybe a fuzzy feeling. People already feel proud just prompting huge projects out and claiming it as their own work. You will not be recognized.

“When a favor becomes too large to repay, the gratitude turns to resentment.”

moonsu 3 hours ago||
It sounds like you and I are having very different experiences in the AI era.

Good luck

efromvt 8 hours ago|||
I mean it was a pretty classic hype cycle - MCP was massively inflated, the blowback was also inflated, and now we're in the happy state where there are same cases where it's genuinely better and differentiated and everyone will keep iterating on it. (statelessness was a big step forward).
c-hendricks 4 hours ago||
Either way still seems like the issue is people giving influencers too much power over them.
kristjansson 6 hours ago|||
> The key mistake people made was thinking in terms of their own workflows and own local stacks

We need a dunning-kruger for empathy: people least able to imagine situations not their own trying hardest to influence others.

whywhywhywhy 7 hours ago|||
Important to remember most ai influencers are a joke and spewing nonsense, claiming things are “over” is one of the only reliable and viable ways to for a person not at OpenAI/anthropic to actually make money in this wave.
chasd00 7 hours ago||
I was watching something on YouTube last night and it really reminded me of informercials from the 80s/90s. Imagine trying to divine actual useful information about business, technology, and industry from infomercials..
dominotw 2 hours ago||
> prominent folks in tech including Garry Tan

lmao not sure if you are being sarcastic but that guy is joker and a poster child of ai psychosis .

_fw 11 hours ago||
I appreciate their reluctance towards MCP, but /something/ is better than nothing.

It’s suboptimal for the reasons the author outlines: but so is USB-C. So is NVME, so is HDMI.

We use these hugely successful technologies in spite of their flaws because they’re widely compatible and easy for the end user.

That’s why MCP is everywhere. It might not be performant, robust and uniform but it WILL get better over time.

And I’d much rather have the broad MCP ecosystem that we have now than seven or eight different “optimal” ways of plugging in an LLM to something useful.

alexfortin 10 hours ago||
Agreed. I personally don't use any MCP but I think it was a good move.

I hope they'll do the same and eventually add native support for ACP (https://agentclientprotocol.com/get-started/introduction) which, on the contrary, I use quite.

msdz 10 hours ago||
Arguably, adopting ACP might even help Pi’s case, in that it could escape the terminal interface into one of many wrapper GUIs. TUIs inherently tend to limit your userbase to those who know what a terminal is… And given OpenAI’s latest product announcement [0] in response to Meta’s, the trend seems to be to attempt an expansion of customers to the general population, away from just developers and maybe “business” people.

Then again, I don’t even know if general adoption is what Pi/Earendil is going for.

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49896604

everforward 7 hours ago|||
I’m not sure; the integrated GUI seems like a major differentiator for them.

Pi’s agent is supposed to be simple, and a simple ACP agent is like a couple hundred lines of code. Making a system that allows UI plugins is way harder.

Also not sure if you’ve seen but you can get ACP from Pi with https://github.com/svkozak/pi-acp It bridges Pi’s RPC mode to ACP, works okay but not amazingly. My thinking level selector in Zed has never worked with it but everything else I use has worked (I’m sure other things don’t but I must not use them).

alexfortin 8 hours ago||||
Good points.

About what Pi/Earendil is going for, I can't really say but a while ago they created quite a stir in the Pi community for adding a trust system[0] which for many (me included) went against the loudly advertized "yolo" phylosophy, at that time I speculated it was a move to make it more palatable for the general population (whatever that actually means), so I'll stay optimist for ACP adoption for now.

[0]: https://pi.dev/docs/latest/security#understand-project-trust

ElectricalUnion 9 hours ago||||
The "general adoption agent" for Earendil is their other product Lefos, that is based on Pi and uses email as the interface.
chriswarbo 7 hours ago|||
FYI Pi can do RPC over stdio (though of course it's a bespoke thing, rather than standardised). I use Pi every day; never used the TUI (I forgot it even had one).
skohan 8 hours ago|||
You could already use MCP perfectly well on pi via extensions.

I'm not so sure about this move, or the general inclusion of code mode in the core editor as one of pi's main selling points was its minimal nature.

warmwaffles 5 hours ago||
If Armin and Mario want, they can just as easily move this back into a package and make it an optional thing to support if they want. There was already a heavily used mcp adapter package that they appear to have just finally incorporated fully.

Though as time progresses, they are probably going to do the same with sub-agents.

skohan 3 hours ago||
I think MTP is kind of ok, since it's a common protocol, but I think incorporating sub-agents could be a mis-step.

There are a lot of ways to implement sub-agents, and it's not something I need the harness to be opinionated about.

I know builtin tools support opt-out, but it's more bloat. It's also more complexity for the agent to understand when you use it to build extensions for itself.

mikeocool 7 hours ago||
Except there already was "something" that the creators of MCP just ignored.

Imagine a world where you could:

* Configure your favorite harness/chat client with any OpenAPI spec for an API that supports Oauth2.

* The harness would walk you through the Oauth flow and securely store the token.

* And then insert some tools for discovering the API methods and making requests in to the context.

* The agent could then formulate a request, call the request tool, and the harness would 1) makes sure it's allowed to make a request to that API, and 2) insert the Auth Token into the request.

It would be basically exactly the same way MCP is setup today, except all you would need is an OpenAPI spec. You wouldn't have setup a server for a janky new standard that's half implemented slightly differently by every harness/chat client.

internetter 6 hours ago||
Yeah I'm not a huge AI bull but I've just never understood why MCP needs to exist when OpenAPI could've just been extended
jasomill 5 hours ago||
For that matter, why does OpenAPI need to exist when IDL could have been extended?
KronisLV 11 hours ago||
I feel the same way about needing support for sub-agents, those feel pretty foundational to me.

I suspect that a smart model driving multiple dumber models for work and then using sub-agents with the same smart model for adversarial review will be a pretty common pattern.

Personally, I got a bit confused about Pi having most of that stuff as plugins since I remember how much of a mess Eclipse was where so much was just loosely fitting together plugins and just went with OpenCode since it covers most of my needs out of the box. Guess that might also be a sign of me getting older, because my IDEs and desktop environments are all closer to stock too.

sunaookami 11 hours ago||
Hah, it's the complete opposite for me :D. In Claude Code I disabled all sub-agents stuff, disabled nearly all tools but Bash, Edit, Write and WebSearch and replaced WebFetch with my own tool that doesn't summarize anything because the results were always worse with sub-agents, they always lack the necessary context and weaker models summarize bad. I also replaced the system prompt with my own that cuts a LOT of tokens, agents don't need a 10k+ system prompt anymore.
KronisLV 11 hours ago|||
That's interesting! You don't have cases where the main session has important planning stuff but the actual work to execute has so much crap in it that context compaction will probably dig into the important plan stuff too much and make it too lossy? Also what about the cache read costs for longer context sizes?

Using sub-agents for example also lets me decrease the default context size in Claude Code instead of running at the full 1M like:

  /autocompact 420k
or deal with Codex's 258k tokens (seriously quite tiny by modern standards).

Same idea with something like OpenCode, there I even configured custom agents for review: https://opencode.ai/docs/agents/

sunaookami 9 hours ago|||
I never hit compaction, most of my sessions are 150-300k tokens long with the longest being around 700k. Using sub-agents means that they can't use that cache, have to re-read everything and now multiply this for every sub-agent you call and it just wastes money/tokens. I also don't like how intransparent sub-agents are, I can't follow what they are doing and I can't really steer them. Claude Code has the /agents view but it's clunky and awful to use.

GPT context window is way too low for me and my last experience with it (GPT 5.6 Sol) was so awful and I hit limits way too fast that I cancelled it (and at least got my money back).

I'm no longer using Pi since it got worse IMHO and Claude subs can only be used in Claude Code but I miss the /tree feature which is perfect for first letting the model read & cache the important bits of the codebase and then start your plan from there (as long as you stay in the Cache TTL). Claude Code has /rewind but it's not as good.

I'm only using the 20$ plans.

kouteiheika 4 hours ago|||
> Using sub-agents means that they can't use that cache

They can, when they're forked off the main session instead of spawned from scratch.

imtringued 8 hours ago|||
I admit I'm not a heavy user of subagents but isn't one of the standard use cases for subagents to run a single command, take the output, summarize it for the main agent and pass it up instead of polluting the context?

When cargo fails to build and creates a massive amount of compile errors, you're better off having this preprocess step.

jmcodes 2 hours ago|||
I also don't like subagents.

I usually have my main agent write a wrapper command around things like that as it hits them. The wrapper only surfaces the important info, writes the full log to a file, and the agent gets some instructions on using sed and the like to navigate the output.

It seems to work reasonably well.

sunaookami 2 hours ago|||
>When cargo fails to build and creates a massive amount of compile errors, you're better off having this preprocess step.

Claude already greps and tails every output by itself, a sub-agent would do the same.

surgical_fire 10 hours ago||||
> You don't have cases where the main session has important planning stuff but the actual work to execute has so much crap in it that context compaction will probably dig into the important plan stuff too much and make it too lossy?

For that is it not better to have separate sessions for planning stuff and doing actual work? Pi is super flexible with session management, and a lot of that can be automated by its extension system.

KronisLV 8 hours ago|||
> For that is it not better to have separate sessions for planning stuff and doing actual work?

Personally, seems like too much effort for something that would still need to (and fail to) have some sort of a link between the two, so I could go from the planning over to implementation and back easily. In reality, that'd get lost in the noise of dozens of sessions - I mostly just want the harness to help me do work and otherwise get out of my way, not make me dance around it. Ergo, the more context management it handles, the better!

surgical_fire 7 hours ago||
Eh, I find managing sessions in Pi extremely easy. In fact, I customized how it mages session as part of my workflow, and how agents in different sessions communicate with one another.

It's part of why I really dislike to work in Claude Code, and found it too unwieldy. There I have to keep dancing around it to manage the context in a sensible way.

dools 9 hours ago||||
What’s the difference between sub agents and separate sessions?
Cilvic 8 hours ago||
I'd assume separate sessions are not aware of each other, sub-agents are spawned by an orchestrator agent?
surgical_fire 7 hours ago||
Almost correct, separate sessions can communicate with one another. In my case, planning and coding communicate by writing files locally.
krzyk 7 hours ago||
And subagents don't always communicate with each other, AFAIK that is the most common case.
j16sdiz 8 hours ago|||
separate session need more hand holding, i guess?
surgical_fire 7 hours ago||
Er, no?

I mean, not in Pi at least. In Claude Code it is a chore.

cyanydeez 10 hours ago|||
running local models, now with Qwen3.8-Flash-Next, they have 256k, but when they get up there their speed is just too slow. So i've taken https://github.com/Tarquinen/opencode-dynamic-context-prunin... and started improving it. It already worked well to get a lot of mileage out of just taking tool calls, code modifications, etc, and dumping them in favor of a summary.

But they'd still inevitably get to long in the tooth, and context poisoning meant they'd just eventually not be able to stay in the preferred context size, which for me is 64k-128k. So, I extended it with an eviction command and required a ratio. So instead of a summary of work, it now just places a waypoint. The waypoint basically means the context has a semi-coherent context but without all the baggage.

I'm on like day 3 of a single session with 3m tokens removed and still in the sweet spot. So it evicts to beneath the lower limit, compresses to the upper limit, then evicts again.

It's amazing how resilient it is if you give it a good plan. The work flow has basically been:

1. Write up an implementation document for some new set of features.

2. Rewrite the implementation as a TDD document

3. Set it to work.

The only thing I haven't figured out is it likes to stop when it hits the finish line of the subparts, but likely we're going to end up with the master of puppets monitoring these things and just set them to evaluating what they've done.

TobTobXX 9 hours ago||
> taking tool calls, code modifications, etc, and dumping them in favor of a summary

Doesn't that destroy the cache? I find that caching significantly sped up my Qwen, especially on said larger contexts.

cyanydeez 7 hours ago||
Yes-ish. The compressed summary sits atop the cache stack, so if we got to 96k, it'll take say 30k, compress to 10k, and that 66k+10k is the new stack, so 66k is still cached and retrievable.

So it is designed like a heap, where we're taking raw context off the heap, compressing it, and putting it back on the heap. So cache during compression is mostly unperturbed, since we're rarely digging all the way to the bottom of the stack, but that could happen.

Eviction though is cache busting; but again, I'm valuing the session's roadmap as the valuable product and context size slows computation size, so I have to bust the cache to sacrifice immediate re-processing for longer term compute speed up.

Because that's faster than getting to the end of the context (remember, every 1k adds to the compute time of the next 1k). So speed at 200k is much lower than at 100k. It's also local, so I'm only paying time+watts for the trade off. As far as I can tell, speed is not being lost since if I let the context grow, the kv cache doesn't help with the compute throughput.

So, yes, but it's "smart"; we're only busting it at the top of the context, so rebuilding it isn't from the bottom up, it's just at the top. Those summaries sink on the heap until you get to the eviction limit, and then, they're evicted, and we rebuild from some intermediate place in the heap.

The benefit of it all is I can have lots of projects, and keep a single session that tends to have the context necessary to avoid having to write AGENTS.md or other context bloats. Set large implementation goals and come back to them as needed, etc. I've had it running like this for awhile and it seems Qwen3.8-Flash-Next has no trouble understanding the rolling window.

Pxtl 9 hours ago|||
That sounds like you just NIH'd mr Zechner's Pi Coding Agent. Those were basically its founding design: yolo-mode security, simple design, minimalist system prompts, plug-in based for anything fancy (even sub-agents and web).
sunaookami 9 hours ago||
Yep, I've used Pi in the past (see my other comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49908276) but I don't like the direction it went (selling out, forgetting their principles/throwing them out). And since Anthropic wants you to use Claude Code with their sub I just switched to CC again. I've only used Pi for a few months though when GitHub Copilot gave you 300 requests for like 10$.
buserror 11 hours ago|||
I did the same, also, the fact the tools evolve so fast, I dont want to waste time on a particular one while it might be obsolete next week. So either it works now, other I pick something else.
DanielHB 10 hours ago|||
oh-my-pi is a fork of Pi that adds a lot of this stuff

https://github.com/can1357/oh-my-pi

I haven't tried it much though, can't vouch how well it works.

spiffytech 10 hours ago|||
Pi vs omp is hotly debated within my friend group. It has most things you could want, ready out of the box, but also a lot of things you'd never want and it's constantly 5% broken. Some people love that trade, others don't.
yurishimo 9 hours ago|||
Glad I'm not the only want to find it a bit janky/broken at times. They seem to constantly be pushing updates which is nice, but I treat it mostly as a black box.

Anecdotally, I find the auto compaction (or what I assume is happening when the context magically drops) to be hit or miss. I do like how easy it is to use my work cursor sub and business chat gpt at the same time. Then I use nearly free cursor models for dumb shit and Sol for real problems.

skerit 7 hours ago|||
I used it for a while, and I thought it was quite hard to follow what was going on. And in the end it just went off the rails anyway, though that might have been a GPT-6 kind of thing.
probst 10 hours ago|||
Exceptionally well is my takeaway. It’s the only harness I am using these days. I was previously using pi and codex mostly, but also the ones built into editors like zed, vscode, and the jetbrains IDEs.

On top of that, somewhat unrelated I’ll agree but still, it has support for vim keybindings

nullwarp 7 hours ago||
Oh thank you for mentioning it has vim mode that's been my only gripe and I had no idea it had it. don't know if it's new or not never noticed the setting.
surgical_fire 10 hours ago|||
It's actually the main reason I chose Pi.

I did create some extensions where it spawns sub agents for specific tasks, especially when I want to keep the context clean or when I really want to offload a piece of work to a cheaper model. And for that I have a high degree of control over, I know which model is being used for each subtask.

I find Claude Code too unwieldy for my tastes. Pi's philosophy of being very light on features nut highly flexible for customization, clicked very well for the way I work.

embedding-shape 11 hours ago||
Some things are impossible to just tack on or work around though, like MCP, while other things, can be done by just composing stuff.

Like sub-agents, you could just instruct pi/any harness with a user prompt/system prompt to start new invocations of itself, if you share what the exact command is, and pi or any other harness will do their own poor man's version of sub-agent via standard unix programs.

none_to_remain 5 hours ago|||
I had the model write up a pi extension for logging the transcript to the syslog, and all on its own initiative it spawned a subagent to generate test output. It decided to spawn a lighter model for this trivial task, apparently unaware that I can only fit one model at a time so my llama-server ended up thrashing to the lighter model then back to the original model. My own personal n=2 semi- rogue swarm
k__ 11 hours ago||||
What would you say is a good harness with subagents?
fwip 9 hours ago|||
I found the MCP extension for Pi to work fine.
abtinf 8 hours ago||
> The way we like to think about MCP at this point is that it should be much closer to OpenAPI with intelligent tool discovery. That means tools should return structured data and tools should be discoverable by their documentation and description.

OpenAPI is “intelligent tool discovery” (whatever that is). OpenAPI literally “returns structured data” and is “discoverable by their documentation and description.”

Just once, I’d like to see someone explain MCP in terms that suggest they have any idea what they are talking about.

aftbit 6 hours ago||
I do sometimes wonder about the value of the whole MCP spec rather than just adding some semi-standard attributes to OpenAPI specs to make them more LLM consumable.
abtinf 7 hours ago|||
Seriously, it just makes no sense.

https://chatgpt.com/share/6abd1842-cd34-83e8-997e-55c8bc23cd...

Alifatisk 6 hours ago||
Don't be a meat proxy
crooked-v 5 hours ago|||
"Just use OpenAPI" doesn't handle the question of having a single well-defined OAuth flow that will work with desktop clients across the board, as well as various gotchas like rendering embedded widgets that will use that OAuth flow, elicitations for user decision points outside of the model control, and other such things outside of the API round trip process itself.
crooked-v 4 hours ago||
Having built out MCP functionality for actual use cases for a small company, the big gotchas for us that can't be handled with "just an API" (putting aside the auth flow thing) have so far been (a) fully custom UI pieces in GUI clients (for example, media embeds with custom rendering) and (b) having the ability to put a user-facing hard stop in the loop for some interactions.

Part (a) in particular is pretty prominent for us since our uses cases are all about video, and having "just" an iframe URL to supply, with no other interaction with the model/turns, would give a pretty janky and unpleasant experience if Claude/ChatGPT even allowed it to embed.

statenjason 9 hours ago||
I use mcporter[0] for consuming MCP when suitable CLIs aren’t available. It exposes MCPs as shell commands. Agents compose using standard shell primitives. Tool returns json? Pipe into jq.

Another perk is it allows me to run tools in the exact same way as agents instead of treating MCP as a special way to call on services. Super valuable when debugging.

[0] https://mcporter.sh/

CamilleScholtz 9 hours ago||
I don't understand MCP still? What can MCP do that a skill + cli can't? I've been using hax (https://usehax.dev) and haven't missed skills at all to be honest.
fnordsensei 9 hours ago||
As a provider, I can add a tool or change instructions on my MCP server, and you'll get it on your next connection, sometimes even mid-session.

With a skill, updates depend on whatever channel delivered it to you. Whichever channel that is, it's out of my hands as a provider.

So, MCP solves the problem of coordinated distribution of updates to a larger subscriber base. Think inside of a company, for example. I don't have to go around and tell people to `git pull` their skills folder.

charcircuit 6 hours ago|||
How is this different from a skill giving you are a URL to another skill file where you can find an up to date list of everything that is available?
jun_lung 5 hours ago||
Because why should you have to load "here's how to update this skill!" information into the context window every time you use it? Would you expect the agent to go to that URL and look for more recent skill files every time you use it? Is this a real question?
charcircuit 4 hours ago||
Versus having an agent read MCP config and fetch the existing tools every time it wants to use the MCP? It's duplicate functionality.
newtwilly 3 hours ago||
The agent doesn't do that. The harness does the fetching and provides the tool definitions to the agent without the agent having to do anything.
charcircuit 2 hours ago||
Nothing says that agents can't read skills, interpret them and fetch stuff. Needing to agent to pass things off to powerful LLMs to interpret doesn't have to be done for everything.
Juvination 8 hours ago|||
[dead]
sthuck 9 hours ago|||
Im sure there are more reasons but updates to prompts and tools coming from the server side is a major one.

It's typed so you can build some governance around it, by allowing only some tools or parameters for your org (this is a pretty weak point, but still)

A skill has one giant description from the frontmatter loaded into the context, where MCP loads a smaller one for every tool. Not necessarily better, the skill approach is often better actually, but sometimes the MCP approach fits more

anthonypasq 4 hours ago|||
not all agents have access to a terminal. not all agents are coding agents. a cli is a versioned piece of software that the user has to update to get new features. APIs can change in the background and add new capabilities.

MCP's have all the same advantages that a rest api has over a cli.

james2doyle 7 hours ago|||
The biggest win for me is they can have state. So you can log in to an MCP (via oauth) and not worry about having to refresh tokens locally or in the ENV. I use it for Trello. I log in, then I can call all the data about my board. No CLI to install, no token to copy-paste somewhere. It just opens a browser tab to log in when required, next, next, next, and it works.
charcircuit 6 hours ago||
Why do think CLI programs can't store state (locally or on a server)?
athrowaway3z 5 hours ago||
Your cli is slightly different than how a LLM uses it. We use 'export' and 'cd' to store state. LLMs dont do that generally.

There is an argument for and against having the model repeat this state.

I'm still on team CLI in that i think even designing an interface from the CLI perspective gets you a better domain interface compared to when you can 'cheat' with the MCP state.

But the thing MCP is just better at is credentials.

The thing that _was_ the dealbreaker between CLI and MCPs is that MCP's couldn't be composed. Maybe `codemode` fixed this; haven't tried enough to say 1 way or another.

charcircuit 4 hours ago||
CLI support using oauth to authenticate via a browser too.
bob1029 7 hours ago|||
MCP is like Docker or Kubernetes. If you are operating at a certain level of abstraction (low), these tools look like they are getting in the way more than they are helping. For others, they will seem absolutely mandatory. It depends on what your goals and constraints are with the project.
crooked-v 4 hours ago|||
Plenty of companies will supply an MCP that will never, ever provide a CLI command or free-floating API keys.
0xbadcafebee 4 hours ago|||
To explain, let me rephrase the question: what can a standard API and remote server do, that a local program and AI-hallucinated text file can't do?
0xbadcafebee 4 hours ago||
To rephrase the question: what can a standard API and remote server do, that a local program and AI-hallucinated text file can't do?
raincole 10 hours ago||
I'm still confused about what this codemode is. Models have been trained to chain bash and other typical unix tools well. They're so good at that to an uncanny level. Why do we want to not utilize this ability? Is it just a permission management issue in case you don't want the model to use shell directly?
the_mitsuhiko 10 hours ago||
We will write about it. The best way to think about it is that codemode solves a different problem than bash in that bash is a way for the agent to run a particular tool: running bash.

Codemode is a way for the LLM to orchestrate harness level tools. The reason this happening now, is because the models by the labs are increasingly trained on this. Codex for instance in responses lite requires codemode to even perform parallel tool calling.

Guillaume86 9 hours ago|||
Codemode is a fancy name some MCP authors coined for the practice of providing scripting/method chaining for their MCP tools. It's generally implemented by providing some kind of code execution tool, the LLM calls it with a script, and the MCP server runs it in a sandbox.

It's pretty effective because of the reasons you noted, but there's a composability problem since each MCP has its own sandbox and can't call into the other ones.

IIUC Pi offer a workaround for this, the harness runs the sandbox and populate it with the MCP tools, that way the composability problem is solved and every MCP do not have to implement their own sandbox.

fireant 7 hours ago||
My understanding is that code mode is supposed to be implemented by the harness, not the MCP provider. You chain multiple MCP providers as well as other harness provided tools inside the sandbox.
Guillaume86 7 hours ago||
My timeline might be wrong (I remember a cloudflare article mentionning the "in MCP" case), but anyway yes there's tools to do it in the harness now and it's the better idea.
pjm331 2 hours ago|||
yes codemode is when you want to utilize this ability AND you want MCP tool calls as part of your scripts

codemode lets you execute scripts in a runtime where your MCP tools are made available as function calls

this matters for cases where the MCP tool is the only way to do something and you do not have an equivalent CLI, API, whatever to script with

agentdev001 10 hours ago||
From my understanding, code mode came about due to some agents not having access to a shell.
andrewingram 9 hours ago|||
The value is that rather than an agent chaining together tool calls itself (which means each step sends the result back to the agent for it to analyse and work out what to do next), it writes a script for the harness to execute that chains together all the calls. The major benefits are:

* speed - much fewer hops back to the LLM

* fewer tokens - intermediate execution steps in the script don't leak into context, only the final result does.

* repeatability - if the LLM needs to repeat work, it can reuse a script it wrote last time.

If you have a harness that has access to a full shell and knows how to use bash or python, you'll often see it writing little scripts. For setups that don't (ie normal model API requests with tool calls), you can give it an lightweight secure execution environment like just-bash, or quickjs.

krzyk 7 hours ago|||
But agents do write scripts, in bash. And they are very good at it. And bash is quite efficient with its pipeing.
andrewingram 7 hours ago|||
And I said that they do this in my last paragraph. But you need an execution environment for this, and you don’t get this automatically when just interacting with models via their API
anthonypasq 4 hours ago||
this seems to be an incomprehensible point for these people to understand. its really quite bizarre
xienze 5 hours ago|||
Bash scripts don't really help when you're dealing with MCP tools or other tools that are local to the harness itself.
dools 9 hours ago|||
Agents just do this anyway, how is it a “mode”? I always see the agent writing scripts in a tmp dir to execute or even just inlining bash and python scripts.
jsw97 8 hours ago|||
Perhaps the appeal is a stronger and more customizable lockdown on agent capabilities.
imtringued 8 hours ago||
We're in a HN submission about the least locked down LLM harness, it's too late for that.
agentdev001 4 hours ago||
We're in an HN submission about the least locked down by default harness. Pi is aimed at being extended, openclaw is a good example of this. You can buy a box of razor blades and put them in any number of razors.
jsw97 4 hours ago||
Right the benefit of pi's customization is that it is exactly as locked down or not as you want it to be, in exactly the way you want it to be, and you can inspect it to verify.
Cilvic 8 hours ago|||
but these bash scripts can not execute MCP tools.

What if I have an MCP Tool LookupZip(City) and want to chain it with a bash tool that prodcues a list of 100 cities. And then I want to filter again to the largest Zip code.

jsw97 8 hours ago|||
Yeah but arguably that tool should be a cli anyway, or could easily be converted to one. The benefit of MCP is that it's _less_ capable than bash.
agentdev001 7 hours ago||
Not in my testing. A lot of the benefit comes from the tool definitions (from mcp) existing in the context window of the first turn. You could replicate this of course by describing your cli tool in the initial user/system prompt- but, mcp is already 'built' for this at the client (harness) level generally.
agentdev001 7 hours ago|||
These bash scripts certainly can curl the mcp server which is exposing the tool, however.
asar 10 hours ago|||
thanks! it now clicked for me. so instead of cat its read_file, even if read_file resolves to cat, cat is not always available.
agentdev001 7 hours ago||
Rather, instead of shell_tool(command: "cat ...")
NichoPaolucci 11 hours ago|
I had no idea pi didn't support MCP! I'm a new user, I just started messing around with it. I was getting my tooling up and running and tried to get one of my database MCPs working (Which, in retrospect, seemed a little painful - but I guess I was under the assumption that it was my responsibility to build + maintain those connections).

Another retrospect note, "No MCP" appears to be the first icon on their front page - not sure how I missed that.

Imagine my surprise reading this!

xienze 10 hours ago|
Pi doesn't even support a permissions model. It's extremely barebones, you're expected to customize basically everything.
pyrolistical 7 hours ago|||
I was enticed by the promise of it being barebones but I still found it too bloated

So I cut out a lot of functionality in my own fork

https://github.com/Pyrolistical/mi

I took “expected to customize basically everything” to heart

alexfortin 10 hours ago|||
... and after using it for a while you might end up forgetting most of the extra stuff you thought you needed in the first place. That's what happened to me and I've never looked back and still am a happy Pi user (https://a.l3x.in/ai if you're curious)
jjuel 7 hours ago||
I have already basically removed any extensions I had installed. There are still a couple, but I am going to remove those as well. Except maybe a web search one as that is something I use often. Going to remove all skills and anything else as well. I am a simple man when it comes to agent programming.
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