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Posted by razin 6 hours ago

RIP, vector database(turbopuffer.com)
238 points | 63 commentspage 2
ActorNightly 5 hours ago|
Im not full read up on RAG pipelines, but has anyone ever tried to make the database a neural net itself? I.e get rid of any sort of traditional databases, and then you basically just have some sort of autoencoder?
thefxperson 2 hours ago||
There's been quite a bit of research into this over the past 3-4 years under the name "generative retrieval." The general approach is to use a transformer and treat the weights as the index. You input the query, and then used constrained decoding to generate the document ID.
tyromaniac 3 hours ago||
In some sense there's probably a database compression scheme that does something similar. Usually people care too much about fidelity
sreekanth850 6 hours ago||
I find very little reason to use a pure vector database for enterprise retrieval. We built an enterprise retrieval engine on top of a SQL database with native vector support, and the flexibility is something we cannot ignore. Vector similarity is just one query primitive alongside full text search, filters, joins, ordering and normal relational predicates. Tenant/app/collection isolation becomes part of the query itself. ACLs, document versions, categories, metadata constraints and temporal filters are ordinary predicates rather than something you have to bolt onto a vector store. SQL is already going to be part of almost any enterprise system. Adding a separate vector database introduces another moving part and syncing two system whenever you update your data is the most difficult thing to get right.
ijidak 3 hours ago||
Which database did you use?
sreekanth850 3 hours ago||
We use cratedb. but now, clickhouse, starrocks all hve vector.
polynomial 3 hours ago||
[dead]
blakeashleyjr 6 hours ago||
This sounds like the Postgres vs. InnoDB argument 10 years later. Postings pointed at physical location (the ANN slot), so every SPFresh rebalance rewrote every index touching that doc. InnoDB solved this by pointing secondary indexes at the PK and eating an extra lookup on read. Curious what that extra lookup costs you when it's an S3 GET instead of a B-tree hop.

"Updating one vector can move hundreds of attributes and their indexes" is basically Uber's 2016 Postgres write amplification post, but for search. Same fix too: stop pointing indexes at where the row lives.

So ANN becomes a secondary index that points at a doc ID, and vector search now needs a hop to complete. Do clusters keep their own copy of the vectors so the search itself stays local, and only result fetch pays the indirection? Otherwise cold p99 seems like it gets worse.

alfiedotwtf 2 hours ago|
I haven’t read it, but “ stop pointing indexes at where the row lives” sounded interesting. So if not the row, what does the index point to instead?
ddorian43 23 minutes ago||
It points to the full primary key (which rarely changes).
xer 1 hour ago||
[flagged]
vhiremath4 4 hours ago||
AI Slop. Will not read.
gravitronic 3 hours ago||
The article?

turbopuffer is founded by some of the smartest people I ever worked with in past jobs. I strongly doubt they used an LLM in the writing of this article.

_peregrine_ 3 hours ago||
confirmed - we still write by hand
croemer 1 minute ago||
This one sentence sounds very LLMish:

> Object storage as the source of truth gave the economics, and tiered NVMe SSD/memory caches gave the performance.

dolebirchwood 3 hours ago||
Are humans who use em dashes that intimidating to you?
OutOfHere 6 hours ago||
It would be nice to have a page that actually loads. This one doesn't. RIP.

UPDATE: It loads now, but it didn't when it was first posted. Traffic load on the server does matter.

syndacks 6 hours ago||
loads just fine on my $10k laptop with 10g internet here in NYC
alexjplant 5 hours ago|||
Takes 11 seconds to load on Firefox on Linux with 3G-level throttling enabled in Dev Tools.
uproarchat 6 hours ago||||
Also loads fine on my beater in the sticks :)
OutOfHere 4 hours ago|||
Do you actually think that 10G makes pages load faster than 1G or even 100M? It doesn't. The blocker was most likely on the source server, not on your side.
WarcrimeActual 4 hours ago||
You're the reason the /s tag has to exist.
phoghed 3 hours ago||
The onion is more valuable when there are people to eat it, we should be thanking him
jjgreen 2 hours ago||
Deep
throwawy0352 6 hours ago|||
Loads really fast for me. (MacBook Air, average internet)

If you still have issues, try https://web.archive.org/web/20261001100105/https://turbopuff...

wilj 5 hours ago||
It has a pagespeed insights score of 55 and noticeably sluggish on my m3 max.

And what's with the throwaway account for this one comment? Is this becoming reddit with throwaway shills now?

phoghed 5 hours ago|||
fucking shills, making helpful comments and promoting seemingly nothing, what's this place coming to?
throwawy0352 5 hours ago|||
Yes, I get big money from the Internet Archive to promote their services. It's the new scheme that shills like me go for.

The reason is that I have no account on HN and rarely comment. I create a new account a few times a year because I don't remember or care about my previous account.

I could have made an account named john2026 and you would not think twice. Instead, I let people know upfront what type of account this is. Quite the opposite of what a true shill would do.

I got a Lighthouse score of 99 in Chrome. Believe it or not, I won't spend more of our time on this. (relevant XKCD: https://xkcd.com/386/ )

First Contentful Paint 0.7 s

Largest Contentful Paint 0.9 s

Speed Index 0.7 s

It makes a lot of requests, and some are stopped by my ad blocker, but most of them don't seem to make an difference. It is almost instant from my point of view. I disabled the ad blocker and didn't notice any visual difference.

swedishPerson1 6 hours ago|||
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jasonmp85 5 hours ago||
[dead]
childintime 4 hours ago|
Is it time to kill the database and replace it with a LLM optimized compiled version that simply implements the required API directly in (Rust) code, without any dynamic overhead? It probably will still be based of off a base design or a base file format.

Ultimately this system will encompass the whole OS, of course, but the DB might be the best place to start.

tyre 4 hours ago||
You mean get rid of Postgres and build bespoke database-esque systems for every use case?

If so, then no. It is not time for that.

cogman10 4 hours ago||
Yeah, I'm struggling to come up with a really good time for that.

The best I got is if you are trying to do an old-school style video game asset/save game storage. But even then, the value in just using sqlite or even parquet is really high.

There's so many really good data formats that deciding on a new one at this point seems pretty silly. Particularly because what you sign up for when you make a new one is losing any and all tools that could be used to work with and diagnose that data.

nemothekid 4 hours ago|||
Instead of a database, the LLM will expose an api endpoint and build a database on demand?

That's interesting. Maybe to decrease latency the LLM could "cache" it's build of it's database and reuse in between instances. It could host this artifact on a "hub" of git trees and then any new use cases that come up, can be added to this git tree. Then it can possibly be reused in different use cases.

bijowo1676 3 hours ago|||
SQLite already exists and some people use it
dymk 4 hours ago|||
Is it time to get rid of hammers and replace them with swiss army knives?
pessimizer 2 hours ago||
We could build a new hammer for each nail!
eatonphil 4 hours ago|||
I have seen this happening already at two different companies. And I'm also doing it as well. Particularly for search indexes where there's no risk of data loss.
Ostatnigrosh 4 hours ago||
Unless you're tigerbeetle and want to handroll every single thing you do lol