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Posted by outlier99 1 hour ago

Opus 5.5 agents discover two room-temperature magnetic semiconductor candidates(www.vals.ai)
103 points | 88 comments
tedsanders 26 minutes ago|
> We’re all used to two types of magnet. The common one, the fridge magnet, is ferromagnetic — its atomic magnets all point the same way (up or down), adding their magnetic effects. The less well known one, the antiferromagnet (AF), has neighbouring atomic magnets that point opposite ways and exactly cancel out magnetically.

This is a very bizarre introduction. People encounter diamagnets (e.g., copper) and paramagnets (e.g., aluminum) way more than they encounter antiferromagnets. I don't know why you'd ever cast magnetism as a false binary between ferromagnets and antiferromagnets, without even acknowledging any other types of magnetic order.

(I did a PhD in magnetic materials)

contemporary343 16 minutes ago||
This is what happens when Claude writes it for you (and you don't review it)
aero142 20 seconds ago||
So, Claude claims a new discovery and then someone else's Claude writes the blog posts. It would be helpful if I could get Claude to read this for me and post dejected HN comments in response.
comradesmith 23 minutes ago||
I also like how they explained ferromagnetism as being arranged atomic magnets. Magnets all the way down.
tedsanders 16 minutes ago||
Yeah, and it's not even an accurate explanation either.

> The common one, the fridge magnet, is ferromagnetic — its atomic magnets all point the same way (up or down), adding their magnetic effects.

Ferromagnets typically have domains with magnetic moments that point in different directions. Ferromagnets can have a net magnetic moment without every 'atomic magnet' pointing the same way.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_domain

Refrigerator magnets in particular are usually magnetized as Halbach arrays, where the whole point is that the 'atomic magnets' are not pointing in the same direction.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Refrigerator_magnet

scrlk 56 minutes ago||
After the LK-99 debacle, I'm taking this with a truck load of salt.
zaep 48 minutes ago||
I think, of course, skepticism around this "LLM discovers X" thing is warranted, and there have been plenty of more recent examples around questionable LLM "discoveries". Just stating this because the LK99 thing I believe was notable as a (supposed) room-temp _super_conductor while this is about a _semi_conductor.
adriand 27 minutes ago|||
> After the LK-99 debacle

"Debacle"? That was the most fun I've had on the Internet in years. When's the last time so many people engaged in so many arguments about materials science and electromagnetism? Sometime in the 1800s?

ntonozzi 21 minutes ago||
Maybe he meant 'debacle' in an endearing sense, not a derogatory one. I personally agree with you and loved this debacle.
gekoxyz 26 minutes ago|||
Yeah I remember going to my physics professor super excited about LK-99 to ask him if he heard about it, and him just telling me "yes but stuff like that happens twice per year, they will find something is off", and in fact it's what happened...
mawadev 16 minutes ago|||
I start my day with plenty of optimism, then I go back and forth in the CLI and find out most of whats posted online is fake, and then towards the end of the day 2h past my bed time I end up ed zitron maxxing, it is the way it is ig
mlmonkey 30 minutes ago||
You probably meant "I'm taking this with a tiny pinch of salt". The amount of salt is directly proportional to how much of the claim you are willing to accept.

Edit: I stand corrected. According to Gemini:

Me: Does using more salt mean accepting more of that claim?

Gemini: No, it actually means the exact opposite. If you say you need to take a claim with a huge pile of salt (or a shovel of salt), it means you believe the claim is highly unbelievable and you need an immense amount of skepticism to accept it. How the Metaphor Scales

• A single grain of salt: "I am slightly skeptical, but it could be true."

• A pinch of salt: "I have a healthy amount of doubt about this."

• A grain of sand / A truckload of salt: "This sounds completely made up, and I barely believe a single word of it."

The salt represents your skepticism, not your belief. Therefore, the more unbelievable the claim, the more "salt" you need to swallow it.

frereubu 23 minutes ago|||
I don't think this is right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_grain_of_salt The "grain" isn't a single grain, it's an old English measure which is around 65mg, i.e. roughly how much there is in a pinch. I've also only ever heard people use larger amounts to mean more scepticism.
PostOnce 9 minutes ago||
A person leans on the titanic intellect of a trillion dollar company's most fearsome LLM, only to be corrected by a random commenter with a link to Wikipedia.

We live in interesting times.

Retro_Dev 25 minutes ago||||
Hmm? I always thought it was how much you had to flavor the statement to swallow it.
esperent 18 minutes ago||||
No, the implementation is that something "tastes off" so you need to add a pinch (+) of salt to make it palatable. The more off it tastes, the more salt you need.

(+) Or a "grain" if you're from the US since American English sayings seem to all date from the middle ages, while the rest of the English speaking world tends to update ours over time. No shade meant, I've just always found that interesting.

plastic-enjoyer 13 minutes ago||||
I guess mlmonkey is a fitting name.
ReptileMan 26 minutes ago||||
Inversely proportional
tempestn 26 minutes ago|||
Citation needed.
nico 35 minutes ago||
In a way, you can think of pretty much anything we express with language, especially things that are already modeled in scientific language, or logical language, or in equations or code; to be representable in a parametric/searchable space

Thus, you can build ai/ml models+agents to explore those spaces, at a speed and scope much larger than what any human can do

I can imagine findings like these are going to keep increasing in frequency to a point in which the bar for novelty goes a lot higher

nico 26 minutes ago||
Anecdata: over the weekend, on a whim, I decided to download a real fly’s brain’s weights [0], run it on a simulated task like finding food, then train a logistic classifier using the fly’s decisions as the expert, then use the trained classifier as a decision model to simulate the fly on a 3d environment, running in real time on a website

It took me (using Claude code and some codex), about 3 hours to put it together

And even though it was a cool demo, it seemed so easy, that it also felt like it wasn’t worth sharing

0: ChessFly (not mine), uses the FlyWire connectome (the fly’s brain’s weights) to play chess https://huggingface.co/spaces/mlabonne/chessfly

binsquare 17 minutes ago|||
I think ai certainly raises the bar for those with taste
tripleee 16 minutes ago||||
Many people wouldn't find that easy, even with AI
polishdude20 23 minutes ago|||
Oh please do share!
nico 13 minutes ago||
https://playground.jeffyclassify.com/#fly

It's a small machine, so it might get bogged down

esafak 30 minutes ago|||
It is not at all obvious that merely because we have words for concepts, that a model should be able to do all these miraculous mathematical and scientific things.
nico 23 minutes ago|||
You are correct. My comment is not so much about that this is something elementary. But rather an observation that, given the current state of technology, it seems like we are being able to model increasingly more things, in increasingly more efficient and automated ways, to the point that there seems to be a pattern to it
jeremyjh 27 minutes ago|||
Right, it also has to model a substantial fraction of reality (or at least a true simulation of it) to accomplish these things.
SR2Z 5 minutes ago||
It models our language, which is a flawed and imperfect way of describing the world. So far, it seems like a lot of these discoveries are "filling in the gaps" between the things we've written down and the things they imply (if you have the memory to think them through).

The story about OpenAI's Navier-Stokes solution is a good example of what I mean. I don't think it would have been possible without computer assistance because that proof is long and complicated. I'm also not sure that it would have been possible without a human proposing a new approach to the problem, because by all accounts that's exactly what led to the absurd amount of spending that OpenAI did to solve the issue.

I feel like that at least implies that there's some room left for humans in the new world.

nater5000 18 minutes ago||
Yeah...?

That's the pitch of LLMs lol

dev_l1x_be 56 minutes ago||
I am not sure how this process looks like. When they "discover" these, what are they actually doing?

    The agents ran quantum-mechanical simulations of each crystal with the standard method for this, density functional theory, at two levels of approximation: a faster one (PBE+U) and a slower, usually more accurate one (HSE06). The band gaps and spin windows below come from the more accurate one.
So the agent runs a classic simulation or I am missing something.
atq2119 31 minutes ago||
A lot of the public successes with agents is really LLM-driven local search against an objective function that is evaluated in more traditional ways. This one seems to fit the pattern.
fasterik 37 minutes ago|||
From the little I understand about this topic, it looks similar to approaches used in the recent Navier-Stokes breakthrough. These physical systems are governed by partial differential equations (PDEs) which can be solved numerically using standard algorithms. So when we say "simulation" in this context we really just mean "numerical solution".

In the case of quantum mechanics, it's the Schrödinger equation, which is no different than any other PDE. Agents are getting very good at searching through the space of possible simulation parameters and initial conditions to find solutions with certain properties. Some parameters produce less accurate simulations but are faster to run, so the search uses these to find promising directions and then runs the more expensive simulations on candidate solutions to test for convergence.

One of the potential applications of quantum computers is that they might speed these simulations up exponentially, but in practice they're not strong enough to be useful yet.

rsfern 6 minutes ago|||
Modeling superconductivity with DFT is tricky, there are plenty of DFT reports from reputable groups explaining why LK-99 should be superconducting. It’s a limitation of the theory, DFT can’t model correlated electron states well, and it’s not great at finite temperature, and both of those are important for superconductivity.
__MatrixMan__ 43 minutes ago|||
I'm under the impression that this kind of modeling is one of the applications that quantum computers are likely to be good at.

I'd imagine there's a lot of documented research which has attempted to find such things using classical computers.

Seems like there would be a lot of well structured context for somebody to use while directing agents to repeat that research, now with updated models once quantum computing is ready for that kind of task.

contemporary343 30 minutes ago|||
They ran Quantum Espresso which is ok, but by no means the 'state of the art' for DFT. And in case, any DFT computation has to be taken with a few pounds of grains of salt before getting too excited about it.

No offense to the person writing this (assuming they did at all), but I'm not sure they really understand what they're doing..

dekhn 31 minutes ago|||
not a classic simluation- a quantum simulation. This means they put a lot more work into representing the wave function of the simulation and modelling quantum effects.
contemporary343 17 minutes ago||
They used quantum espresso.. undergrads usually run this in certain classes: https://www.quantum-espresso.org They didn't do any work there.
rfgplk 48 minutes ago||
Frankly, there is no point in trying to "understand" what an LLM does. Their thought process is effectively undecipherable by humans (it's essentially information arising from information) so even such a "simple explanation" is almost certainly wrong. The agents might appear to have "used this method", but the actual method of computation is far beyond our grasp.

Why are people being so belligerent about this? I thought it's fairly obvious at this point that LLM reasoning is far beyond anyones understanding. Or does anyone have a refutation?

reasonableklout 43 minutes ago|||
This is a strange attitude. When an agent is optimizing a piece of code, comes up with 2 variations, and runs benchmarks on them to figure out which one is faster, then selects one of them based on tradeoffs between performance and other things it reasons about, do you ignore its explanation and all experiment runs?
fasterik 21 minutes ago||||
You're confusing the weights of a model and internal chain-of-thought with the output of the model. Yes, we don't know a lot about how the internal mechanisms work. But with the correct prompt, agents will produce a worklog that documents exactly what solutions were tried and how the result was obtained.
static_motion 30 minutes ago||||
>Their thought process is effectively undecipherable by humans (it's essentially information arising from information

Are you trying to say that human brains are incapable of inference?

black_knight 25 minutes ago||||
What are you on about? I have had Fable come up with new shit for me several times (I do research for a living, so actual new shit nobody knew before), and each time it was perfectly understandable.

Of course I don’t know how it got its ideas for what to try. But heck, I don’t even understand how I get my ideas half the time. But the process, like what code it wrote, simulations it ran etc can be understood by (some) humans just fine!

amoorthy 45 minutes ago|||
Yes I saw 3Blue1Brown say the same thing in his tutorial on how neural nets worked where he built a simple model to recognize a particular letter. Good reminder.
rfgplk 41 minutes ago||
I've been dabbling with some of my own (tiny) models recently and it's actually shocking at what they can "learn" despite having _zero_ mention of it in it's training data.
malfist 23 minutes ago||
Okay? Aren't the semiconductors we use today room temperature? I certainly don't use helium to cool my phone.

I don't see any claims that this is better than the current silicon and gallium arsenide semiconductors that we use. And the use of "room temperature" seems a deliberate attempt to misconstrue this with superconductors

monocasa 19 minutes ago||
Sounds like a good reason to hire a lab to make some, and then make a big deal about it if the results pan out.

I can think of worse uses of VC AI funding.

esperent 7 minutes ago||
[delayed]
Legend2440 54 minutes ago||
Interesting; but until actually made and tested, not worth getting excited over.
devmor 50 minutes ago|
One of the materials is most likely impossible to synthesize. The other already exists, so that may actually be capable of being tested. It's only been synthesized once, 27 years ago though.
nrmitchi 35 minutes ago||
> One of the materials is most likely impossible to synthesize

Is this a "actual impossible because it's inherently contradictory", or "we just don't know how to do it yet but give us a year"?

Legend2440 23 minutes ago|||
We don't know a way to precisely place atoms in a checkerboard pattern like that, without getting it so hot that the arrangement is destroyed.

It maybe could be possible but beyond the reach of current material science.

nrmitchi 9 minutes ago||
I personally thinks that’s the more optimistic of the two options; I’ll take it as a win for today
devmor 8 minutes ago|||
"Likely Impossible" as in, we would need a revolutionary discovery in how thermodynamics apply to crystal formation.
otterley 23 minutes ago||
I wouldn't describe them both as being newly-discovered. The second one, KV[Cr(CN)₆], had already been discovered.
jonplackett 36 minutes ago|
A lot of these ‘an agent invented’ or ‘an agent solved’ are actually the agent wading through a lot of info and finding something a human did that no one noticed or saw the relevance of at the time.

If ai becomes so prolific that we humans all stop doing those things then will they still work?

gabbagool 23 minutes ago||
Which is somewhat ironic since neural networks were "discovered" back in the 1940s... then forgotten... then wait, they were discovered again! ... then forgotten, again... and now here we are.
chris_money202 30 minutes ago|||
Well its not just any old human doing these things in a general sense. Its typically academics or highly paid researchers who love doing work like this. So, I don't think it will just one day stop
Schiendelman 33 minutes ago|||
Yes, as long as we are advancing to behavior and world models, so that agents can interact with the world themselves. Which we are.
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