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Posted by signa11 4 days ago

Grieving the loss of details(purplesyringa.moe)
309 points | 248 commentspage 3
simonw 5 hours ago|
> [...] I proudly called myself a coder as opposed to an engineer. In my eyes, this highlighted the way I focused on the details, performance optimization, knowing the intricacies of the language, and being able to explain how things work, as opposed to juggling Java-esque abstractions.

Ouch. There's an idea that I've seen a few times now that there are two key types of developers: developers who thrive on building products and solving problems through the existence of code, and developers who thrive on the process and the low-level puzzle of getting that code to work and then to work well.

The former are having a really great time right now. The latter are feeling justifiably threatened.

claykkari 6 hours ago||
I'm not nearly as detail-oriented but I can certainly relate. The craft I've spent 20+ years mastering is disappearing and I'm not sure if I'll enjoy whatever replaces it. It's reassuring to know there are others who share the sorrow.
mattgreenrocks 6 hours ago||
It's such a strange feeling. I have a similar amount of time invested as you. I'd always gravitated toward understanding how things work and bringing those insights back to whatever I worked on. Could be low level details, could be software architecture, or some obscure SQL. It wasn't that I knew everything, but that I could descend into the rabbit hole and re-emerge with something useful if needed.

Hard not to see it as tech killing competence in general, and cheering it on.

Kinda wish I'd gone to med school instead. Tech has only shown itself to be more unserious as time has gone on.

siva7 5 hours ago||
Software isn't disappearing - Code is. The craft is more craft than ever and more powerful.
rwyinuse 5 hours ago||
Your job will probably disappear, if it involves creating software.
xyzsparetimexyz 1 hour ago||
No offense but this person seems either incredibly autistic or mentally ill.

> I don’t see myself as a programmer who is also an expert in a niche area; I see myself as exclusively a low-level coder,

> If anyone can point an LLM at slow code and it automatically finds a hot loop and uses a trick it found somewhere on the 'net to vectorize it, there is little point in hiring someone with a focus on that.

We're no longer in an age where this kind of aggressive specialization makes a lot of sense. And, honestly, that's a good thing. The best thing is to have T-shaped knowledge. Go deep in a few areas, shallow in many.

> A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein

ionetan 6 hours ago||
I think understanding the details is still important. However, it moves toward the more central parts of the application, where the risk is higher and agentic workflows can’t be pushed as far. I think the author may benefit from specializing in those parts of the system where unattended agentic work is still too risky.

Wrote a post some time ago on how we'd be helped by segmenting and ranking the domains of our systems so we can be deliberate about where we stop short of full automation: https://ljtn.github.io/epiq/blog/cost-of-cognitive-debt.html

cseleborg 6 hours ago|
Your article matches my own intuition, and there's a case to be made for adjusting our architectural patterns to better compartmentalize those parts of the app we can let an agent go nuts on. For example, could we leave all of the UI to the agent? Or things like the MCP Server implementation of the app? I'm not quite sure where to draw the line yet. I'm quite comfortable leaving unit tests to the agent by now, but if it's user visible behavior, I still find the agent's work to be off somehow. Ymmv, I guess.
sean2d 6 hours ago||
I think that, with the amount of vibecoded code of mediocre quality being produced, there will start to be a demand for "hand-made" software that someone took time to make as delightful as possible to use.
cseleborg 6 hours ago||
Yes, I think so too. Just like there is a demand for handmade objects like vases, cooking knives and beverages, which was the norm before the industrial revolution and has now become a thing of intrinsic value, provides they are of higher quality than their factory-made counterparts (I have a background in the spirits industry, where "small batch" and "handmade" have often been used to justify premium prices despite clearly lower quality. I've become a little more discerning since when I see those labels anywhere and don't take quality for granted).
jaapz 5 hours ago|||
I think you overestimate how many users actually care that something is mediocre or not, as long as it gets the job done.
advael 6 hours ago|||
Demand from whom? I think a lot of people are pretty constantly observing that software quality in applications they use (or are forced to interact with) has been declining across the board for a while, and that this seems to have accelerated recently. The average lay understanding of this is "because AI" but it's probably a combination of sometimes being models producing sloppy code and sometimes being poor morale and management and product design in this industry that's essentially coming apart at the seams from the perspective of its workforce. I think it's uncontroversial to say that people already dislike this and wish for better software quality. For the most part, though, they either don't have or won't use any levers of market pressure for this. Their software choices are largely limited to what google or apple will allow for their phones, or what employers require them to use. I'll tell anyone who will listen that they should use FOSS where they can, but people really resist this idea even where it's extremely feasible and the tradeoffs are mostly familiarity (like their desktop OS). Consumers of software seem to partially think this way because they have been disempowered so thoroughly that they seldom have a choice

So as market pressure goes, that leaves employers. I do see the occasional oddball project that resists this wave, but "doing things correctly even if it takes longer" is not a value you're really allowed to have in an economy where the make or break factor for your business is usually getting investment capital, and capital is, as a population, probably the most all-in on LLMs of anyone, to the point where I believe they'd push for vibecoding even in instances where they can't find numbers that justify doing so.

A ton of people not in tech hate genAI so much that they say they'll, for example, not purchase a game if they know someone used it for any part of it, and yell about it online, and such, but games are pretty much the only consumer-facing software people make purchasing decisions about, so maybe that moves a needle there, but gamers failed to rally against microtransactions, DLC piecemealing, or even things like always-on DRM or revoking purchases that literally remove their ability to play their games, so I doubt that's going to materialize a change in something that could be more easily obfuscated in response to this pressure like the provenance of the software

Market pressures require at least a somewhat free market, and the overall american market for software is drastically distorted by various oligopsonies that by and large has a vested interest in LLMs (and specifically the corporate black box ones) being used for as much as possible

intended 5 hours ago||
The issue is how much demand.

We have tailors around the world, but Zara and other brands do the lion's share of business.

Automation in physical labour resulted in less work for physical labour. There are still some people producing hand crafted work, but the market doesn't need that many of them.

A much smaller group of people can serve the needs of an entire state.

neonihil 5 hours ago||
Before anybody panics about LLMs let's just take a deep breath, and see this tech for what it is.

It is a giant interpolation machine. It is very good at remixing stuff, but is is hapless when it comes to novel things.

Consider this: an llm was trained on physics, but the training data was cut in 1904. That is just a year before Special Relativity was published. The LLM was then shown papers of SR, GR, and Heisenberg's paper from 1925 that established quantum mechanics, and similar foundational papers of what we call "Modern Physics".

The LLM has systematically "disproved" all of them, and rejected as false.

So even if you show it a novel idea, it's still going to reject it.

It is by design limited to remix existing ideas.

The recent "novel" mathematical proofs are also just remixes. What I mean it uses two or more established math frameworks together to generate a viable bridge. The result is undeniably a new proof, but not a novel idea.

People with novel ideas will always be needed.

xyzsparetimexyz 1 hour ago||
That's more of a straw giant than a straw man at this point.
royal__ 4 hours ago|||
Do you have a citation for this?
leecommamichael 5 hours ago||
Hey, interesting take, could you cite some specifics on the LLM and experiment you’re referring to?
Animats 3 hours ago||
For a brief moment in history, it was cool to be a nerd. That era is over. The era of the nerds began when the IBM PC went mainstream in the 1980s. It peaked in the dot-com era, when, for the first time, large numbers of nerds got rich. That continued through the FAANG era. Now it ends.

There will still be some nerd jobs. Some. Fewer over time. The future is not you telling an LLM what to do. That was the brief "prompt engineering" era. It's an system of LLMs and agents telling each other what to do. Most likely with a bro in charge.

Get used to sand kicked in your face. Or, to quote Orwell, "If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face – forever".

Ask someone who used to have a good union job what life is like now.

huijzer 5 hours ago||
> “I didn’t care about practicality, building useful programs, or writing code per se: all I wanted is to understand how the machine works.”

Over the years, I’ve transitioned from building “beautiful” stuff to nowadays building stuff that works. I still want it to be perfect but now not for me but for the user. If I think it’s ugly, but the user wants it that way, then who am I to decide against it? They will have to use the software, not me. Seeing a user be happy with the software is super nice. Way more enjoyable than me just making stuff for myself.

armchairhacker 5 hours ago|
I think there's opportunity to create a niche that fits the author. LLM-generated work has this problem where the details are flawed in a way that makes it good on the surface, and nowadays a bit deeper, but still inferior to the same work produced by a competent human. The dominance of low-level programmers over software could not last forever, but neither can the dominance of this use of LLMs: English is not an ideal programming language.
krapp 4 hours ago|
I've seen people praise broken LLM-generated software in ways they never would human written software that had the same issues. I think the dominance of LLMs will last simply because of the money and social inertia behind them and because people consider them inevitable, so it doesn't really matter how flawed the code they generate is there is faith that LLMs and the quality of what they generate will always improve, and that one simply has to accept it. That faith and tolerance isn't (and will never be) extended towards humans to the same degree.
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