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Posted by 6bitquant 3 hours ago

The Mathocalypse(scottaaronson.blog)
147 points | 150 commentspage 3
PowerElectronix 2 hours ago|
What's with all the "AI just proved that this or that isn't O(n (log (n))^2) but akshually O(n (log (n))^1.99999)"??

I guess it deserves respect as progress, but it just rubs me the wrong way. Like the machine did the absolute minimum to beat the previous mark.

bryan0 2 hours ago||
Often times the constant (2 in this example) is a conjectured minimum, so anything below that is a noteworthy result. Think of it as breaking through some theoretical limit.
mswphd 1 hour ago|||
for say FFT/integer multiplication or 3SUM, we have natural algorithms that have existed a long time with a given complexity (O(n \log n) and O(n^2), respectively). Given how long these natural algorithms have been the best algorithms we have, it is natural to conjecture they are optimal. Showing an O(n(\log n)^{.99999}) algorithm exists shows that these optimality conjectures are false.

Now, there are some critiques you can have of this. Namely, it is possible that these novel algorithms have significant trade-offs that make them almost never worthwhile in practice. "Fast" matrix multiplication algorithms are typically of this form. So perhaps this all points towards a deficiency in big O notation, which can be deceptive. But, for people who care about optimizing asymptotic complexity, it is still interesting.

JohnKemeny 1 hour ago|||
Many people thought it could never be less than 2. They proved that it can. What is the true value? Nobody knows, now.
zem 1 hour ago|||
to get some intuition about why this is such a big deal, look up the history of strassen's algorithm, which solved matrix multiplication in less than O(n^3). this was a truly stunning result because it seemed intuitively obvious that the output matrix had n^2 cells each of which was calculated via an independent O(n) loop over a row/column of the input matrices, so how could you do better than n^3. but once strassen proved that you could do some clever tricks and reduce the overall time to something less than O(n^3) it started an entire cottage industry of people getting better and better algorithmic bounds. the initial breakthrough was a qualitative one, independent of how much it improved things in numerical terms.

https://hideoushumpbackfreak.com/algorithms/algorithms-stras...

tmvphil 52 minutes ago|||
Tell that to the humans working on matrix multiplication who spent years of their lives getting it from n^2.3728596 to n^2.371866, only for openai to blow it away at n^2.25
para_parolu 2 hours ago||
You just run it again and again and again
zkmon 2 hours ago||
The irony. Something that is born out of a science, eats up that science.
plasino 1 hour ago||
I think this should be called “mathematician discover vibe maths”
TMWNN 2 hours ago||
Quoting DCKP <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49989738>:

>I have had this conversation with my PhD students yesterday. I am 100% sure that all of their problems can be solved by publicly-available models now (I solved a case of one myself as a test, it took 15 minutes). So the challenge for them is to see how much they can accomplish in their allotted period, and still pass a defence on at the end of it all. The PhD defence is going to become all about a test of understanding, not a test of quantity of publication.

Also, Ted Chiang's 2000 short story "Catching crumbs from the table" <https://np.reddit.com/r/singularity/comments/1wzu5gf/this_mi...>.

cgio 6 minutes ago|
Maybe they should target more ambitious results now that they can solve their other results in 15 minutes? This spirit of racing in academia is insane. Get in before the door closes.
p0w3n3d 1 hour ago||
Wasn't openai accused of stealing personal work of some mathematicians? It's going so fast I'm unable to keep up
Kotlopou 42 minutes ago||
Yes, there was controversy around the Navier-Stokes result. But here are >300 problems and no corresponding >300 complaints of theft. Things are indeed moving really fast, and it's hard to keep up even as someone folrowing this with more obsession than would be healthy. Maybe somebody should keep a running short summary of The Situation...
frontier_thief 1 hour ago||
Yes it was:

https://cepr.net/publications/ai-didnt-steal-the-mathematici...

Frontier theft is just faster.

m3kw9 1 hour ago||
I'm not getting all the fear. AI seem to have brought math field to the cutting edge instead of solving decades old problems. AI can find new problems that needs to be solved, that themselves cannot solve. So thats where mathematicians can come back in to leverage tools to go at it.
mlh496 2 hours ago||
Imagine if a team of mathematicians from OpenAI had gone on a university tour, gave demos of how powerful their models were for math research, and then gave mathematicians access to the model. Empower others rather than drop 700+ discoveries on GitHub that were made using a model only they have access to.

People might feel differently about AI if they were a part of the changes rather than being a helpless spectator.

AlanYx 1 hour ago||
The reaction/fallout would have been substantially improved even if OpenAI had just made a commitment to not scoop external researchers using an internal model until X months after the model had been made available to the public.

That would have given grad students who've been grinding towards a PhD for years a fighting chance to see if they could leverage the model to push their work forward, rather than watching years of work potentially turn to dust via a tool they don't even have access to.

It wouldn't delay the progress of mathematics by any meaningful amount in the long run (an X month delay is nothing) for OpenAI to take this approach, and would help somewhat to preserve the health of mathematics as a field. Without it, the motivation for any young mathematician to devote years to a new problem must be sapped knowing there's an uneven playing field... an OpenAI team with access to colossal tools months before they'll ever be able to get access, willing to scoop anyone as soon as they can, perhaps without even taking the time to completely understand the proof.

I don't see any long-term benefit to OpenAI with their current strategy. This is an internal model; it's not available for sale at the moment. They've said they're not even going to bother claiming the Millenium Prize money for Navier-Stokes. It feels like kicking over hundreds of other people's chessboards just because they can.

karmakurtisaani 2 hours ago||
Also, the independent authors might have spent some time to actually understanding the results and producing a readable manuscript. The AI papers are pretty badly written.
OutOfHere 2 hours ago||
The obvious answer is to have mathematicians use AI to:

1. Help understand, check, and explain the results.

2. Write new works explaining or refuting the new approaches and results in more lucid language.

3. Advance the field further.

I don't know why this is not obvious. Each step is intended to support human understanding, not to replace it. Any mathematicians who don't do these will be left behind, and if none do it, the field of human mathematics itself will become obsolete. All I am hearing so far is excuses.

j2kun 1 hour ago||
AI is producing works that are so poorly written/explained that it requires AI to even parse the results, which in turn produces explanations that are still confusing. In fact, it seems the humans are required to understand and explain the results, and the fact that they need to use AI to do so is a shortcoming of AI.

And if humans decide to give up on mathematics because the process of using the machine is so tedious, then there will be no value in automated theorem proving.

aeturnum 1 hour ago|||
You can certainly do that - but it's quite the break from tradition to release a paper in the state described. Why they did is a really interesting question! It may be that AI math requires approaches that humans don't find intuitive and what you are describing is actually counter productive (because, in summarizing the work in a way humans understand, you're removing the context an AI would use to further the work an AI did). It also might be that OpenAI could have done that and chose not to - or maybe they tried and this was the best they could do. No matter what I don't think anything about how to react to a paper being released in this state is obvious.
qingcharles 1 hour ago||
Isn't AI well-suited to tasks #1 and #2, though?

#3 at this point might need more human intuition; but that might be a 2026 problem.

tkdb 2 hours ago|
C'mon. Mathpocalypse. Things are hard enough already.
Nition 1 hour ago|
Just be glad you're American, because Mathsocalypse and Mathspocalypse work even less.
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