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Posted by jonotime 2 days ago

Why isn't the industry freaking out about DeepSeek 4.1 Flash?(www.dgt.is)
1093 points | 961 commentspage 8
ApolloFortyNine 1 day ago|
I have no idea if anthropic can actually make money at their subsidized subscription rates (you can easily hit your monthly cost in one 5 hour session if you price out the tokens through the api), but if subscriptions didn't exist, I do think everyone would be on deepseek 4.1 and just not look back.
LeBit 1 day ago||
I have subscriptions to OpenAI and Claude but use DeepSeek 4.1 Flash for my coding agents.

It costs pennies and you got really great output.

The author is spot on.

flying_sheep 1 day ago||
No one will freak out until anyone can run frontier model in their own laptop ;)
browningstreet 1 day ago||
What would freaking out look like, or is this just a stupid bloggish title flourish?

Is OpenAI coming in $20B under a sign of "freaking out"?

jerf 1 day ago||
It would look like major chaos in the markets.

People tend to conflate the question "is AI a useful technology?" with "are the AI companies going to do well?" but they're surprisingly separated in practice, with either one able to be true while the other is false. There is a lot of money tied up in a lot of hardware with a lot of loans made against that hardware as collateral all based on the assumption that AIs are going to need more and more and more and more hardware and whoever has the hardware wins. If a much better model comes out that requires vastly less hardware, or even more accurately, merely charges vastly less than the current AI companies, then to a first approximation (barring Jevon's paradox, and bearing in mind there's no timeline guarantee on that) all that hardware becomes much less valuable for being grotesquely oversupplied relative to what is necessary, and even though that would generally make AI objectively more useful than it was before, it would cause mass financial chaos in the markets.

The markets need a very particular rate of progress. It isn't entirely clear to me that it's even a possible rate of progress, it may be overconstrained, but they certainly don't have plans for the AI models to get commoditized on the timeframes of these vast, vast array of loans being made against hardware as collateral. Spend a metric shit ton of money to kill all your competition then charge monopoly rent on the one thing absolutely everyone needs doesn't work if you can't economically "kill all your competition" because the economics favor them in the spending spree.

And then, based on the fact that this is not even remotely complicated logic, there are plenty of people who are fully aware that they have a lot of money tied up in not running around telling everyone how wonderful the cheap models have become.

hirako2000 1 day ago||
It's also unclear whether those who approved those loans understand GPUs depreciation. In any case, progress in software but also hardware could bring chaos and ruin their house of cards.
pessimizer 1 day ago||
> It's also unclear whether those who approved those loans understand GPUs depreciation.

This also assumes heavy utilization, though. If there's heavy utilization, it might mean they're doing well. If they're all spinning, it's time to raise prices.

hirako2000 1 day ago||
Only if utilization isn't at a loss. Right?
NortySpock 1 day ago|||
Agree that people leaving the big two companies is going to be hard to keep a pulse on prior to IPO.

Anthropic and OpenAi are in the news, so they get the press and people go and try out their product. Large enterprise businesses are going to make larger, longer-term contracts with them and are only going to pivot if they think switching costs are easy or if they think the provider won't deliver.

The other inference producers are less well known or you need to get your cloud sales rep to tell you how to switch to them as a provider rather than Anthropic or OpenAI.

I use OpenRouter, I know switching is easy, but larger businesses tend to work in yearly cycles. DeepSeek v4 Flash came out in late April.

I agree OpenAI and Anthropic are going to struggle when the median price of running a smart-enough model keeps falling.

Edit: I also think demand for hardware will be rapidly absorbed by other companies if Anthropic or OpenAI stumble. We've finally turned hardware directly into runnable intelligence and people are not going to go back to the old ways.

efficax 1 day ago||
they should be freaking out because every time the chinese labs or non "frontier" labs release a model that is only a few months behind and much cheaper than the openai/anthropic models it shows that they don't deserve their valuations
WJW 1 day ago|||
Perhaps, OR it might be that most people in the markets (think that they) are not all that exposed to the valuation AI labs and so their eventual collapse doesn't matter.

Or perhaps they consider the upside from cheap Chinese models to hedge the effect that OpenAI/Anthropic collapsing would have on their portfolios. This would make sense for (hedge funds holding) most companies: they don't really care about who supplies the AI, as long as they get it at roughly the same price as their competitors.

browningstreet 1 day ago|||
ironically, at my large enterprise, they aren't yet distinguishing between "chinese models" and "chinese models hosted at microsoft foundry". so far it's just _banned_. i'm not at all pretending it's like that at other orgs.
airtnp 1 day ago||
Because good enough in the writer's context is a pretty low standard. While many people regards GPT 6.1 Sol or Opus 5.5 as "incapable" in some cases.

Just try Opus 5.5 reminds me how Opus 4.5/4.6 astonishes me. Completely different, and GLM-5.3/Kimi3/DS-4.1 are still like Opus4.8 levels.

smallmancontrov 1 day ago||
They might be. They would delay public admission as long as possible, because public admission would make stocks go down.
taf2 14 hours ago||
it's ok but not great compared to the commerical LLM's it's really not very good. it's benchmarks are clearly fake. even still we run it internally for a ton of workloads on our rack of gpu's
zackangelo 15 hours ago||
I've been loving DS4.1 Flash, it's been one of my daily drivers since we started testing it internally.

We just launched it on our platform today (Mixlayer, https://mixlayer.com), promo code LAUNCH-DSV41F gets you some free credits if anyone wants to check it out.

sotander 1 day ago||
Because it hallucinates a lot. There's no free lunch. Although the new architecture is a genuine move forward. The DeepSeek guys are really top notch researchers and devs.
throwdbaaway 14 hours ago|
Finally an article that gets the maths. Following the release of DSV4 preview where 1M context can fit in single digit GB of VRAM, frontier labs pricing just became stupidly expensive. Other Chinese labs and r/LocalLLaMA also can't compete on pricing.

And since then, there has been so many articles that made it to HN front page, and all of them didn't get it. They just went on and on about tokens generation. Most HN commenters didn't get it either, find-in-page for "cach" typically yield 2~3 responses. If I had a dime for every time this happened, I could have .. paid for 1B cached input tokens?

Anyway, DeepSeek still has to come up with a frontier model, and they almost did it with DSV4 Pro 0813, which is just slightly below GLM 5.3, but 30x cheaper. Unfortunately, the massive price hike happened just 3 days later.

DSV4.1 Flash is good, but not quite the same level. Much easy to self-host though, especially for serving a team of developers. Let's see what the next one can do.

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