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Posted by john_alan 12 hours ago

Apple/macOS removed from official Unix registry(www.opengroup.org)
223 points | 200 commentspage 2
whatever1 3 hours ago|
Why is the client OS important?

We just ssh/http to the real Linux machine that runs our things anyway. These days with commoditized VPN and symmetric residential Gigabit internet, that Linux box does not have to be in the cloud either (specially with LLMs guiding the sysadmin tasks).

Any thin client with a browser, an ssh client and an internet connection will do the job.

callc 2 hours ago|
Less things that can go wrong.

Sometimes just having a local machine that you can do everything on is what you need

nsagent 11 hours ago||
I see macOS 26 listed under the Unix 03 standard. Was macOS 27 listed and then removed? The submission title + site contents combined do not give enough info to assess what exactly was silently removed.
john_alan 11 hours ago|
macOS was listed on the main register (the link in this submission).

It was Tahoe, it’s since been removed.

The UNIX03 page still lists it, but I believe that’s a mistake.

macOS has been removed from the main register/list.

dofm 10 hours ago|||
The index page seems to only list the status of current OS versions.

Perhaps Golden Gate simply hasn't passed certification yet? It's less than a month old.

MYEUHD 6 hours ago||
macOS Tahoe was certified on launch (September 14th 2025)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45238930

dofm 5 hours ago||
Yes, that is interesting and certainly lends credence to the OP’s interpretation.
nsagent 10 hours ago||||
The this is much ado about nothing. Every single entry on the page you linked goes to its product page with the exact Unix standard it is certified as. Once you select a filter, you cannot get back to unfiltered list without the back button on the browser.

This is just a site rendering issue. Rather than silently removed, it's more like some bug was introduced. macOS 26 is still Unix 03 certified.

nateb2022 5 hours ago||||
macOS is still very much registered: https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm
sdcfgy 11 hours ago||
Well Unix as a standard is completely dead. macOS as a Unix is completely dead. I expect another branch in the already complicated as hell tree of Unixes.
skywalqer 10 hours ago||
macOS as Unix is not dead – the compatibility with developer and unix infrastructure it has is an important reason why the company I work for uses MacBooks (at least I believe so).
mdasen 2 hours ago|||
Does your company care about compatibility with UNIX® infrastructure or that it's compatible with Linux/BSD infrastructure?

People care that macOS has a lot of compatibility with Linux/BSD, but most don't care that it's UNIX® - just as people don't care that Linux/BSD aren't UNIX® compatible. Yes, Linux/BSD are very similar to UNIX® and mostly compatible, but they don't conform to the specification.

You (probably) don't care about the UNIX® specification. You care that your MacBook has good compatibility with Linux/BSD infrastructure. Many people assume that Linux/BSD are UNIX® and just don't pay for certification. They aren't UNIX® compatible. They are extremely similar, but they don't follow the spec 100%.

Sorry for putting the ® everywhere, but people often use UNIX when they mean nix-like operating systems and when we're talking about whether people care about macOS as a UNIX® or not, it matters whether were saying "people want macOS to be UNIX®" vs "people want macOS to have good compatibility with nix-like operating systems such as Linux and BSD like it does today." People usually care a lot about the latter and not about the former.

jeremyjh 9 hours ago||||
The relevance of Open Group and the UNIX brand has been a walking corpse for decades.
Grombobulous 6 hours ago||||
I would guess that your company isn’t actually interested in the UNIX compatibility specifically, more that they’re interested in laptops that can run a similar toolset.

They probably also buy MacBooks since they’re reliable, performant, high-endurance (battery life) general purpose business laptops that employees like using and see good productivity with.

bananamogul 7 hours ago||||
I think he means macOS as official, certified Unix is dead.

macOS as a more Linuxy-friendly place to work on Linuxy-type software, sure. Definitely true compared to Windows. But no one cares if macOS is blessed as Official UNIX.

How many people are writing software that they need to be able to run on Linux, Solaris, AIX, and HP-UX in 2026?

sdcfgy 9 hours ago|||
We've found it to be a much worse experience than windows for dev stuff. It's a different OS and architecture to the target env (Linux). Aligning with that makes life considerably easier.
kstrauser 4 hours ago|||
If you're using a language compiled to bytecode or interpreted, then the OS and arch don't matter a whole lot (so long as you don't have to deal with Window's weird filename conventions or other oddnesses). If you're using compiled-to-bytecode languages, there's a huge advantage in forcing your code to be cross-arch safe from day one, lest ye accidentally end up with something that can only build on the exact CPU in your devs' laptops or can only run on the flavor of WSL you're using that year.

Writing on Mx Mac and deploying on Intel Debian is a little harder in the beginning, but spares you oh, so many footguns down the road. Eventually you might want to deploy to a different OS or arch for cost or convenience reasons. That's a really bad time to find out that your project can't be made to work there without heroics.

asdff 4 hours ago||||
Why not develop on the same env? I mean if I were you my macbook would just be an ssh client to the x86-64 dev box that emulates the target env. So many advantages to offshoring the compute to some server (my preference is your own hardware ofc but theres flexibility in cloud). For one, the laptop is not getting hot just being a dummy ssh client. I can spill a coffee on it during a build and nothing happens, build goes on and I am just out a thin client I can replace immediately with anything with ssh installed, my cellphone included if I am so desperate.
coldtea 9 hours ago|||
Linux doesn't have an "architecture".
sdcfgy 9 hours ago||
You know what I mean. ARM vs x86-64 -and- macOS API vs Linux API.

And yes, they are different even at the user end on the shell.

plorkyeran 8 hours ago||
All of our production Linux systems are running on Graviton these days, i.e. they’re arm64.
Rohansi 8 hours ago||
Your production is not going to be the same as everyone else's. It's also not going to be the ideal for everyone else's, or even possible for everyone else's.
jasomill 5 hours ago||
The differences between ARM and x86 are probably less relevant for the majority of server-side development than API and admin interface differences.

In practice, anyone seriously developing Linux software on either macOS or Windows is using VMs or containers running the actual Linux kernel, at least for testing, and the difference is that Microsoft has put far more effort into integrating specific support for these things into the OS.

john_alan 11 hours ago||
Indeed.

I just wonder if macOS will stop being UNIX like.

That is, whilst it still has home brew and a BSD core it’s great. If that goes away it’s no longer a viable alternative to Linux.

Brainspackle 11 hours ago|||
I've been a software engineer for 25 years, doing Linux stuff at startups and big companies (the biggest even). In all my time as a software engineer, I've seen maybe 3 people who didn't use a MacBook Pro for work. Apple makes the bulk of its money from tech companies and schools and they cater very well to both. If it stops being Unix-like, they lose the thing they make the most money from. They are smarter than that.
torben-friis 10 hours ago|||
I don't think apple makes the bulk from professionals at all, the iphone is their flagship product and their laptop line has been expanding towards casual markets with budget models.
kstrauser 4 hours ago|||
They absolutely do not want their developers to mass migrate to another platform. Walk into any SF startup and you'll see 100% Mac laptops, except for the Finance guy who needs Excel on Windows, and that one dev who insists on Linux, and all those devs build webpages that work on Safari, and iOS apps before they (maybe) eventually get around to making an Android app.

Apple is highly incentivized to keep devs on Macs, even if it turned out to be a loss leader for them.

jeremyjh 9 hours ago|||
Right but in this thread it is pretty clear we are talking about the money they make from MacOS.
kbolino 6 hours ago|||
They don't make any money on macOS anymore. You get it preinstalled on their computers, you can't buy it separately, you can't install it on other computers, and major upgrades are free.
jeremyjh 6 hours ago||
It is a part of the computer that people pay for. This is like saying they don't get any money from Apple Silicon because its already installed on the motherboard.
kibwen 9 hours ago|||
The money they make from MacOS is a footnote compared to the money they make from phone hardware, the app store transaction tax, and ads. To a first approximation, the only reason that Apple cares about MacOS is so that people can make iOS apps.
jasomill 5 hours ago|||
This is a poor approximation, as there would be no need for such an extensive Mac product lineup if this were true. The Mac mini and one laptop product line with two or three sizes would be more than sufficient, and continuing development of first-party Mac applications like Logic and FCP would serve little purpose.
jmcs 10 hours ago||||
Backend developers are already conditioned to use Linux VMs when developing in Mac OS.
splittydev 8 hours ago||
And so are developers on Linux. 99.5% of your backend stuff will run just fine on macOS without any modification, but it's been a good practice for a long time now to run stuff in containers (Docker/OrbStack/podman/etc.) in order to have a reproducible environment free of contamination. My development process in macOS is basically no different than it was on Linux.
pjmlp 9 hours ago||||
I bet you are located in US.
sneak 10 hours ago|||
You’re in a bubble. Windows is still huge, especially in middling companies that dictate it and standard HP/Dell/Lenovo hardware for all 3k staff.

It’s insanely common.

orf 10 hours ago||
His point isn’t that it’s common, it’s that a unix-like environment is a key selling point.

Given that Windows made WSL in an attempt to capture developer mindshare, that tends to support his comment

9dev 10 hours ago||
You still end up in uncanny valley often enough, with commands that are missing, or working unexpectedly differently. It often feels like macOS could be made so much better for developers, but Apple just doesn't care because people buy their devices anyway.
spacedcowboy 9 hours ago|||
It’s not that. It’s that their lawyers won’t let the engineering side distribute gnu tools. Period.

At Apple, if you even use GPL tools in your workflow you have to seek approval, and most often there’s pushback of “why won’t this (alternative that isn’t GPL) work ?”

Their lawyers aren’t stupid, they understand the GPL and its limits, but they’re simply doing a risk assessment- which one is less risky, the GPL variant or the BSD. For a corporation, that’s generally BSD.

pjmlp 9 hours ago||||
The problem is that being a developer is not a synonymous with UNIX.
jeremyjh 9 hours ago|||
In deeply saddens me to think that there is a developer who has not installed gnutils and put them earlier in the PATH.

The remaining differences are related more to systems stuff - managing daemons with launchd for example. These aren't really a distraction day-to-day.

jonhohle 9 hours ago|||
It really is that simple. No different from a BSD or even a non-GNU (busybox, etc.) Linux distribution. If you like GNU tools, use them.
9dev 9 hours ago|||
It’s a computer. I can make a computer go beep if I want, that is not the issue.

The fact that someone who didn’t grow up at the time when open source was an idealistic concept instead of free support to corporations needs to learn about the gnutils and how to install them with homebrew is what makes me sad.

Why do we seriously not have a command-line package manager on macOS yet? Windows has one by now. It’s just sad to me that you need a manual checklist of post-setup steps to turn a Mac into a useful machine for software development.

jeremyjh 8 hours ago||
I don't think you have to grow up in some idyllic era that never existed. Its more like you type 'ls', notice that its total crap, and google it.
9dev 6 hours ago||
The point I was making was that knowing what GNU means in the first place probably requires some cultural background that many people lack, especially younger ones.
jeremyjh 6 hours ago||
Right, and the point I'm making is that you can learn this from Google once you notice there is a difference from how common commands work on Linux and MacOS. You don't need to know about GNU, you just have to wonder why its different.
mrweasel 10 hours ago||||
It already feels a bit like it's two separate operating systems on one machine. It's still usable, but I am starting to notice odd behaviours. Files created in the terminal not showing up in the UI, there seems to be no notification from the filesystem to Finder, informing it that the terminal has created a file.

Developers and operations people are already starting to move to Linux. More and more I see colleague either switching to Linux, or have a mac laptop for administrative tasks and then a Linux workstation, or VMs, where they do their actual work.

mingus88 10 hours ago|||
> Developers and operations people are already starting to move to Linux.

I’ve been in this industry for a long time now. Linux always had more credibility among devs and ops folk. This “starting to move” view is weird.

My view is that OS X was acceptable by these teams because it was close enough to Linux and corporate could deal with it.

When I worked in corporate IT Linux was simply not an option for a primary workstation because there was no standard configuration or management tooling that made everyone happy. Macs were an easy compromise.

hollowonepl 7 hours ago||
I personally don’t see macos anyhow competing with Linux or to be anyhow comparable to Linux in each others sweat points. linux dominated server side, so be its fair victory but it’s continually shit kind of clone of many things done in MacOs desktop experience. It just kept cloning Apple since forever to repeat a glimpse of that experience even during Next times with WindowMaker and then with many incarnations of modern desktop systems to compare with OSX and MacOs continually and in that direction. Linux is open, it’s different, that comes with value but still a little handicapped brother to MacOS desktop experience with continually f*up fundamentals even if you include wayland as the base. So is MacOs in servers but there Apple just resigned last year and stopped pretending they have servers. Both have only one thing in common, shell with base posix tools. Nothing else. And none are as open as original idea for Unix as this idea is long dead and linux tries to make Stallman’s wet dream about GNU system come true as his own kernel implementation did not move forward much it at all since mid 80s.. that’s the only UNIX reality that matters.. rest is bureaucracy and 5000 pages of POSIX standard nobody cares about as this is more about C libraries than kernel’s internals.
mingus88 13 minutes ago||
You may be interested to learn that Apple does in fact have servers internally.

https://wccftech.com/apples-private-cloud-compute-server-m5-...

I don’t think it makes business sense for them to mass produce these for a consumer market but a data center of M5 chips sounds amazing for the workloads they’re running.

I don’t think the open source model will ever make an Apple quality UI because that’s the result of highly opinionated executives like Steve Jobs who don’t need to compromise or allow customization.

I’m glad both exist. I use them both and my life is good

jameshart 9 hours ago||||
Microsoft just shipped a full-fledged first class Linux container runtime as part of Windows[1]. I don’t think it even made front page of HN, which shows how far windows has fallen as a developer environment, but it is absolutely something Apple should be offering as a first class capability on OS X. The compatibility of the host OS file system with being mounted into docker images makes it a better environment for running such things.

[1] https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2026/09/29/wsl-co...

moritz 9 hours ago|||
https://github.com/apple/container
jameshart 8 hours ago||
Well… that’s handy.
jasomill 5 hours ago|||
Has it really, though? Because outside the HN bubble, Windows still seems to be the most common developer environment for most things that don't specifically target Linux or Apple platforms, and a popular option even then (e.g., in game dev).
akxowkciwkdkw 5 hours ago||||
> Files created in the terminal not showing up in the UI

You might wanna look into that because that’s not how it works at all. I frequently switch between terminal and GUI apps and have not once noticed Finder failing to catch up with whatever it is I’m doing in the terminal.

mrweasel 5 hours ago||
Strange, because I have the same issue on two different machines. It doesn't happen all the time, but frequently enough that I assumed that Finder does some re-scan every now and then (or when you open a new Finder window).
chuckadams 1 hour ago||
Finder windows subscribe to filesystem events, so the reaction is pretty much instantaneous.
pjmlp 9 hours ago|||
Game and app developers certainly not.
lloeki 11 hours ago||||
I'm suspecting some forces at Apple would be perfectly content with ripping most of the BSD core and the assorted CLI out and just have Linux containers spawned in VMs, WSL2-style.
pjmlp 9 hours ago|||
Of course they were, even NeXTSTEP was designed to be compatible with UNIX only to compete with UNIX workstations like those from Sun.

Neither Apple nor NeXT had a UNIX culture, and efforts like A/UX and mkLinux were never that much serious.

Had they acquired Be, BeOS was even less UNIXy than NeXTSTEP.

jeremyjh 9 hours ago||||
Its called colima and its excellent.

https://colima.run/

moritz 9 hours ago||
and they have a first-party one now as well

https://github.com/apple/container

jeremyjh 8 hours ago||
I haven't tried it. colima also simplifies linux VMs which is more of an analog to WSL2 than just running containers. It has really nice integration with Incus as well, if you like persistent system containers.
moritz 7 hours ago||
I also use colima mostly, it‘s great! (the Apple container thing de facto requires macos 26+)
throawayonthe 9 hours ago|||
would be awesome
Telemakhos 9 hours ago||||
In some alternative dimension Ternus decides to realize the full potential of the Mach kernel by embracing Hurd in place of XNU. Users are discouraged because the new system is not enough like GNU/Linux.
totetsu 11 hours ago||||
What would that going away look like?
sdcfgy 11 hours ago|||
Swift on Mach
john_alan 8 hours ago|||
yeah I guess there isn't really much to move to... a new custom Kernel and Userspace? extremely unlikely - I guess it's here to stay, despite not being formally Unix.
sdcfgy 11 hours ago|||
It's distinctly problematic there unfortunately. Particularly the moment you add any UI toolkits to it. I've had so many problems with stuff that uses Qt because Qt takes a while to catch up with things Apple broke inside their Cocoa internals. Very irritating platform to work on.

Edit: love how I get downvoted for facts?! They literally broke Cocoa so it was throwing hopeless useless exceptions at the bottom of the stack when they changed the native file open boxes to run in another process. Two bits of software I use couldn't raise an open file dialog window any more.

Benard-dev 3 hours ago||
I didn't realize macOS was actually certified UNIX since 2007, thought it was just marketing.

Is this Apple just not wanting to pay for the certification anymore or does it actually change anything for us devs?

mdasen 2 hours ago||
There's a long story behind it, but Apple started saying that Mac OS X was UNIX, but UNIX was a trademark. So Apple decided that they either needed to alter OS X to conform to UNIX standards or buy the trademark. They chose the former.

> Is this Apple just not wanting to pay for the certification anymore or does it actually change anything for us devs?

It's probably not about paying and more about tiny differences. Will it change anything for you? Almost certainly not. In fact, it might make things better for you. If anything, Apple's adherence to the UNIX spec can sometimes mean subtle differences in tools between macOS and BSD/Linux. Do you want things like grep or sed that conform to the UNIX spec or that work like grep and sed work in the real world?

And these differences are often small edge cases that don't come up much, but a spec is a spec.

The money is inconsequential for Apple, but at this point it probably makes more sense to just stop calling it UNIX and not worry about shipping a version of a tool exactly meets the UNIX spec - it'd be more useful for their users if it matched the behavior on Linux/BSD.

Benard-dev 2 hours ago|||
Thanks for explaining.

That grep/sed difference on mac caused me issues so many times, always thought it was just Apple doing their own thing. I didn't realize it was a spec thing.

pdw 31 minutes ago||
It's neither, really. OS X takes its command line utilities from BSD world, while Linux's mostly come from GNU. They're independent implementations, and GNU utilities are as a rule much more featureful than their BSD equivalents. Or much more bloated, depending on your point of view.

Both aim to conform to the POSIX, but POSIX is a very spartan spec, people routinely use non-POSIX features without realizing it.

ghboo0927 40 minutes ago||
Tahoe and Sequoia are still in the apple's apple's list(https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm)

Tahoe, Sequoia, Ventura, and Monterey were in main list until October 7.

Can't figure out the reason.

zerozerotwo 11 hours ago||
I never quite understood what the point of this was beyond marketing. Linux is also not listed probably because no one ever paid to have it listed
zarzavat 10 hours ago||
Apparently it was for legal reasons. Apple was sued by the Open Group for describing Mac OS X as Unix® so they decided it was cheaper to bring it up to spec rather than to fight the lawsuit.

https://retrocomputing.stackexchange.com/questions/27095/why...

https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...

lproven 4 hours ago|||
This is incorrect.

More than 1 Linux distributions have been tested, passed, and listed in the past... But you need to pay again every year, and recertify every new version, and they didn't bother keeping it up.

I described them and what this meant in some depth in this 2023 article:

https://www.theregister.com/software/2023/01/17/unix-is-dead...

liamgm 9 hours ago|||
Enterpise espeically banking need standard and certification for reliability thats why , also certain Linux distro had certified before from China based on RHEL.

This is UNIX 03 certified OS with OSS alternatives from I gathered on internet :

- Apple OS X 10.7 - Apple macOS 26 , provide OSS Darwin 9 - Darwin 26

- Oracle Solaris 10 / 11 , provide OSS OpenSolais , then Illumos

- EulerOS 2.0 , based on RedHat Enterprise Linux / RHEL 7 and 8

- Inspur K-UX 2.0 , based on RedHat Enterprise Linux / RHEL 5

- Inspur K-UX 3.0 , based on RedHat Enterprise Linux / RHEL 7

dofm 10 hours ago|||
It is specific Linux distributions that would be Unix-certified. Huawei had one; not sure if it has ever been on this page.
stingraycharles 11 hours ago|||
Enterprise. Checklists.
mrweasel 10 hours ago|||
It was a legal problem, and an interesting story: https://www.quora.com/What-goes-into-making-an-OS-to-be-Unix...
drob518 10 hours ago|||
And Gnu’s Not UNIX.
onionisafruit 10 hours ago||
It would be marvelous to see GNU/Linux certified as a UNIX specifically with rms’s preferred GNU/Linux as the name.
steve1977 10 hours ago|||
They could even just call it GNU is now UNIX.

It was Stallman who came up with the name POSIX by the way.

lproven 4 hours ago||||
As described in the thread, EulerOS and Inspur K/UX were both certified in the past.

They were CentOS Linux derivatives.

brewmarche 8 hours ago|||
IIRC there were some UNIX Linux distributions in the past but the certification wasn’t renewed
throw75586886 7 hours ago||
Linux can’t be listed, because Linux is not an operating system. It’s just a kernel. Unix specifies a whole operating system, which includes things like libc, cat, sh etc.

At best a distro could be certified. But that certification would not automatically extend to other distros.

alberth 10 hours ago||
HN thread, 150+ comments:

The story behind macOS UNIX certification.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29984016

lisper 6 hours ago||
Why would anyone care about what the Open Group has to say in this day and age? Is anyone actually still using SCO or AIX any more?
gfalcao 6 hours ago|
It appears here https://www.opengroup.org//openbrand/register/xy.htm
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