Top
Best
New

Posted by Anon84 9 hours ago

Terence Tao: Math 2.0 [pdf](teorth.github.io)
273 points | 326 commentspage 2
gste 8 hours ago|
> Using AI to find and highlight new principles, methods, or insights, rather than merely new proofs.

I would have assumed that, by producing new proofs, the AI has either validated existing principles, or discovered new ones? Isn't that worth studying?

Are mathematicians complaining that reviewing AI's proofs is not as fun as writing your own? Try being a programmer... welcome to our world!

If AI lacks imagination and is not discovering new principles, then it's doing us a favour: it's crossing out the problems that don't need new principles. So the problems/conjectures that are still left are the more interesting ones.

esalman 1 hour ago||
I have done both scientific research and software development, they are not the same world. For a start, when you write a program you have a specific goal. When you ask a scientific question, you often don't.
hansvm 7 hours ago||
Absolutely not. New proofs aren't the same thing as new proof techniques, AI is not generating new techniques (yet), and while the existence of more mechanical proofs is interesting those same problems if left to human mathematicians would have been much more likely to actually generate new techniques. Much like how tech has a "juniors" problem we're pushing on the future (no reason to hire juniors, so where are tomorrow's staff engineers going to come from), OpenAI's approach generated a "questions" problem where math and AI could happily coexist if we designed that correctly, but instead nobody's going to be generating or working on the right questions anymore.
zozbot234 6 hours ago||
> AI is not generating new techniques

Source? I assume that many of the approaches embedded in this proof dump will eventually be distilled and generalized into new techniques. That's how proof techniques tend to come about anyway (before AI): human mathematicians do something novel and unexpected to solve a particular problem, then efforts are made to understand how the "trick" works.

tim-kt 5 hours ago||
The point is that so far the AI is not doing a good job at explaining the "trick", so we (humans) have to do it. And the way these results are published at the moment (that is, dumping a load of proofs with badly written explanations) is not cooperative to enable this distillation (for example, presenting results at conferences and engaging with mathematicians). I recall Tao working through the disproof of the Jacobian conjecture, stating some steps as "miracles" for lack of better terms. If a human solves a problem in an unexpected way, at least there is some reason why they chose this path, which can help in understanding. This is not available to the same extent with AI generated proofs.
zozbot234 3 hours ago||
> The point is that so far the AI is not doing a good job at explaining the "trick", so we (humans) have to do it.

Sure, but that's a real technical limitation with current AIs, not something that AI firms should be blamed for. And if anything, this creates a viable career path for the mathematicians who were "scooped" wrt. the original solution: they can at least puzzle out what exactly the AI managed to do. Many practitioners are actually quite excited by this possibility; Tao's stance is by no means universally shared.

tim-kt 2 hours ago||
I'm about to start a PhD in mathematics. The idea of puzzling out what an AI did to prove something sounds quite boring and unappealing. But yes, maybe it's a viable career path.

I'm just not happy with the presentation of OpenAIs result. Maybe they could have gotten into contact with the people of the research areas of the problems that they solved and worked with them to create a better exposition. Sure, it's a slow process and requires lots of staff. But I believe that they can afford it.

zozbot234 2 hours ago||
> The idea of puzzling out what an AI did to prove something sounds quite boring and unappealing.

The way I see it, it's no different from a lot of grad student work where you have to figure out what a human-written proof is doing.

> Maybe they could have gotten into contact with the people of the research areas of the problems that they solved and worked with them to create a better exposition.

That's what Anthropic is doing, and the issue is that people will complain that they weren't the chosen "person to work with". OpenAI's approach is more like a race where everyone's at the same starting point: they get the AI's raw proof to work on and have to figure out how it works.

tim-kt 1 hour ago||
You raise good points. I don't have answers for them. We will see how this plays out in the next few months.
manlymuppet 1 hour ago||
I think people have really misunderstood Tao as someone against "AI doing his job". That's at the core of this controversy in math, and it couldn't be further from true.
alecst 7 hours ago||
Putting aside the cancer question: I still don't understand how TT seems to be fixated on what models can do today instead of tomorrow. It's realistic and even conceivable that the models will also become better at explaining and presenting proofs too. Maybe he's not emotionally ready to accept that there may not be a future where his (and to some extent, my) skills are relevant and valued. It breaks my heart. I hope I'm wrong, but it feels like we've run out of higher ground to run to.
robotpepi 4 hours ago||
We don't know what models are going to be able to do in 2 years. If they don't improve much but people in charge simply decide to reduce the number of mathematicians, then we'll end up with a dead math community and no progress. That's obvious to everyone in position in power. Arguing that he's not emotional ready is very naive.
brcmthrowaway 6 hours ago||
Your skills in math, or SWE?
math_dandy 8 hours ago||
From the slide Beyond Problem Solving:

"Reaching these lighthouses [resolutions of open problems] prematurely by automated tools can disrupt the exploration of the paths not taken, and sterilize the surrounding field."

This crucial issue is centered in mathematician psychology and the incentive structure of academic/institutional mathematics worldwide. For mathematics to flourish going forward, we will need to realign our brains to think differently about the nature of mathematical progress. And we need to reorient our institutional incentive structures towards the promotion of meaningful mathematical progress itself rather than targeting proxies that are no longer faithful.

Regardless of the precise nature or the causes of the "sterilization" Tao refers to, we (the mathematics community) can only rely on ourselves to repair it. Though, since it will involve fundamental change at the level of ossified academic institutions with many stakeholders and divergent vested interests, any such repair will be slow, frustrating, controversial, and lacking any guarantee of success.

glimshe 6 hours ago||
We still don't fully understand why Pepto Bismol and Tylenol work.

I'm a big fan of Tao. He must be so shaken by the AI storm that he's now writing arguments that even teenagers could quickly dismiss. A sad day.

viccis 3 hours ago|
Maybe he just sees the legions of armchair experts weighing in on his (extremely notable expert) opinions on mathematics and thought that maybe they'd like a taste of their own medicine?

"Oh no! Not like that!"

- everyone with Very Strong opinions on mathematics academia when he talks about the thing they are (or consider themselves to be) experts in

tipsytoad 2 hours ago||
This all seems precedented on model capabilities that came into play over the last 3-6 months. How do you establish this new paradigm when we don’t know what the models will be like in 1,2, 10(?!) years from now.
levzettelin 2 hours ago||
Jeez, TT made one bad example (cancer cocktail) and people in this thread can't stop bitching about this, even though the rest of the slide deck kinda makes sense.
1970-01-01 7 hours ago||
In a nutshell, Math 2.0 is not fully compatible with Math 1.0 and the forced upgrade is breaking features, plug-ins, and we're tracking several new bugs, but this is still the fastest, most secure, and best version of Math ever released, with powerful new features and unrivaled privacy.
numitus 2 hours ago||
Can someone explain, why people understanding is important? Proof 1+1=2 was created in XX centery, but people before and now use it without understanding, use it as axiom. In computer science, a lot of people use CAP-theorem without understanding their proof, because we know someone else prove it and verified it.
freecodeio 54 minutes ago|
cause one day the planes will fall out of the sky and we won't know why
vagab0nd 27 minutes ago||
do you personally understand all the things that keep the planes from falling out of the sky?
freecodeio 5 minutes ago||
Me and a group of aero engineers together do.
the__alchemist 6 hours ago|
This crisis exposes a conflation between A: The broader concept of [abstract] Mathematics and B: The contemporary Mathematics culture and community. This crisis is directly in B only. B will adapt: In how it attributes value, status, hierarchy, and career. There will be a death (Or something close to it), and rebirth. Through this, A will advance in a Kuhnian leap - habits will be broken as incentives changed, and paths ignored will be explored. Insights will flow to the sciences.

I'm excited!

More comments...