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Posted by jttnr 3 hours ago

Total Annihilation, rebuilt for modern computers(nanolathe.gg)
261 points | 104 comments
modeless 3 hours ago|
I recently discovered Beyond All Reason, a spiritual successor to Total Annihilation. There have been several of these, but I think BAR is by far the best. It's open source, but looks nice and is polished. It has amazing quality-of-life features I haven't seen in any other RTS. And it supports insanely huge battles with hundreds of players and tens of thousands of units.

150-player match: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQJujiZ-oz0

https://www.beyondallreason.info/

Lucasoato 3 hours ago||
Yeah, let me add that it’s a wonderful community. They won’t flame you for failing the frontline because your opponent has been playing the game since day 1.

If you just started, just stay in the backlines and do “eco”, people will be ok with that.

techjamie 3 hours ago|||
That's pretty good to hear. I've taken interest in it from time to time, and downloaded it at one point to spectate matches. It seemed really intimidating to my extremely casual RTS playing self with how much is happening.

Maybe I'll give it another look.

modeless 3 hours ago||
There are some single-player missions and modes that you can play to try it out. And I heard there's going to be a commercial release with a full single-player campaign coming out eventually. https://www.beyondallreason.info/news/beyond-all-reason-and-...
nylonstrung 1 hour ago||||
The sarcasm isn't warranted

It's very much a game of team coordination where the power curve is exponential but also can have huge turnarounds since buildings are fragile but drive the economy entirely

So naturally you have to know how to play your specific role or it can throw the game for everyone else

It's not casual like Command and Conquer or something, but nor is it incredibly sweaty like StarCraft or DOTA

daymanstep 12 minutes ago||
Is command and conquer considered casual?

I feel like whether a game is considered sweaty or casual is more dependent on the game mode (e.g. ranked vs normal, UMS vs ladder etc).

thebluegecko 2 hours ago||||
This experience might uh, might not be universal. I found the 8v8 community unhappy when I accidentally threw games while trying to learn. I will say the 1v1 community is very relaxed though. Starting 1v1s or vs bots might lead to a better experience.
searealist 2 hours ago|||
As someone who has played BAR, it's hard to read this as not being maximally sarcastic.
Lucasoato 1 hour ago|||
Man, I got flamed hard even for losing against one of the game developers, the community is cooked.
dgently7 1 hour ago|||
ya, this drips with the common noob complaint that people flame you for being a noob.

unfortunately that is a totally fair assessment. its a deep and detailed game with lots of units, commands, mechanics and a few maps that have extremely developed meta.

this is only a problem if you think you can drop into multiplayer on literal day 1 without even doing any of the local/non ai learning options the game provides and expect your team to just deal with you not even knowing the basics.

And even then if you start in "noob" lobbies people are pretty helpful, to the extent that they are trying to play the game and give you tips and can only do/type so much.

so its simple... 1. play the scenerios/vs to learn the basics. also watch some yt basics guides 2. join noob lobbies. 3. when people try to help you and they sound mad/terse/short it helps to assume they are just busy with their own match and are doing their best to play and help you learn. if they give you advice try to take it. 4. do your best and ping out when things are going bad in your lane.

the community on there really is very much "nicer" to noobs that many games, especially ones that are co-op team based. but you do need to have realistic expectations. people will get upset if you mess up their games bc you havent at least tried to learn how to play at all.

handoflixue 53 minutes ago||
"It's simple" followed by an on-boarding routine more complex than some paying jobs I've had.

You are way out on the edge of the bell curve. You only want to play with similar people. That's fine. But own up to it and don't pretend it's friendly to newbies.

asanineassasin 28 minutes ago||
[dead]
iamnothere 10 minutes ago|||
This is often recommended here, but I find BAR to have too much of an “arcade” feel compared to many other RTSes. It seems to be competing with modern Starcraft, not the rest of the TA lineage.

I’m sure many will like it, but if you’re expecting it to be like TA or FAF then you may be disappointed.

chrysoprace 34 minutes ago|||
It's better in just about every way, and if you have a copy of TA (such as from GOG), you can load the soundtrack from TA into BAR's music folder and it'll change the soundtrack to the TA soundtrack.
reactordev 2 hours ago|||
Can confirm, BAR is what you want...
jansan 1 hour ago|||
I have a very strong opinion about everything not having the 2.5D viewing mode as TA cannot be a worthy successor for TA. The 2.5D mode was part of the fun.
thaumasiotes 2 hours ago|||
I was struck by something else about Beyond All Reason.

There's a popular Starcraft 2 commentary-and-gameplay streamer, Winter, who spent some time posting commentated BAR games. Videos from this period include direct pleas to his audience to take more of an interest because it's a better game with a better development model.

Then he took BAR off of his main youtube channel because that didn't work. He now seems to operate a separate variety channel with some BAR content.

I think about what this says about the role that marketing plays in people-in-general's choice of pastimes.

majormajor 11 minutes ago|||
Starcraft 2 is a 16 year old game that's a sequel to a 28 year old game. In my limited exposure that's a crowd of people who know what they like and want to stick to what they know, not a crowd of people looking for new things. Probably one of the most now-marketing-resistant groups you'll find. Marketing in 1998 may have been able to change it, though. ;)
Havoc 1 hour ago|||
Also bunch of vids by a guy called drongo. Haven't seen any recently (7 months) though
lloydatkinson 1 hour ago||
I keep meaning to try this game when I see it mentioned. It looks fun!
somat 2 hours ago||
Fair enough, but is there an advantage over the spring engine? Another clean room implementation that understands total annihilation data-structures, a project started 20 years ago.

For what its worth, the Total Annihilation derived project with the most attention currently is is BAR https://www.beyondallreason.info/ They decided to make it legally distinct, but it was the balanced annihilation project which was total annihilation rebalanced for better pvp. I don't play too many RTS so this is not authoritative, but BAR plays better than any other rts I have tried, They really care about the fine details of user experience there.

In fact, I consider Chris Taylor(Total Annihilation, Supreme Commander) to be one of if not the greatest RTS designers. His games don't have the fluff people appear to love(looking at you starcraft) but he gets the control design better than anyone else I have seen.

ThrowawayR2 2 hours ago||
The advantage presumably is that a player gets to experience Total Annihilation's gameplay as it was originally released, without any rebalancing. It's interesting historically as the root of its own lineage of RTS games, it's interesting from a nostalgia perspective, and it's a great, if dated, game in its own right; the campaign, music, and narration still hold up nearly thirty years later.

To whoever put it together, thank you.

Quothling 2 hours ago||
Isn't this just the ebitengine doing all the work, with someone having used AI to vibe code TA functionality on top of it?
PorciiVorbesc 2 hours ago||
>His games don't have the fluff people appear to love(looking at you starcraft)

What fluff (of Starcraft) are you referring to?

somat 2 hours ago||
Gratuitous cutscenes, annoying barks everywhere, huge useless animated portraits. It is basically the blizzard polish, looks better than it plays. Not that Starcraft plays bad, but none of the fluff contributes to gameplay. And that gameplay takes a lot more micromanagement than it needs to(some people like this. me, not so much).
SgtBastard 12 minutes ago|||
> Not that Starcraft plays bad, but none of the fluff contributes to gameplay. And that gameplay takes a lot more micromanagement than it needs to(some people like this. me, not so much)

As the gen Zs would say: Skill Issue.

philipov 2 hours ago||||
None of that has anything to do with why starcraft is popular, though. Starcraft has a long history of organized professional competition, and that's responsible for sustaining interest in the game.
IsTom 1 hour ago|||
At first people played Starcraft for the campaign, internet access in late 90s wasn't common enough for a game to thrive on mostly online multiplayer. And it was popular back then. And playing on LAN was more of "20 mins no rush" thing.
majormajor 9 minutes ago||
Yeah, the TA campaign was... not very compelling.

By the time my crowd had reliable enough connections for multiplayer, the number of people who knew and liked Starcraft from that campaign was much higher than the number who'd either gotten to love TA from the campaign or from vs-computer matches.

samplifier 1 hour ago|||
So: money, gambling, ego bloating, greed, eye candy, narcotics?
rvba 1 hour ago|||
sound (and lack of it) is something that gives aa lot of balance to the game

in brood war you get info when units are made and sounds wben they die. unless an invisible dark templar one shots your units, then no sound

also brood war is the better game

slightlygrilled 2 hours ago||
I have been working on this for supreme commander!

With modern tooling, libraries and such, many of supcoms old technical issues can be addressed. (plus it now works on linux and mac!)

I think I'm close to a like for like version.

And of course the performance is leaps and bounds beyond what supcom could do, you can see a 64,000 unit air fight, and I'm pretty sure i can get that going at 60fps plus!

and end game vs the ai, is still 4x realtime, well beyond what supcom could do.

and of course higher player v player battles

You can see that all here and in the replies https://forum.faforever.com/topic/10451/supcom-moho-engine-r...

mscbuck 2 hours ago||
Dude.....I need this. SupCom is one of my favorite games of all time (especially the "World" custom map, so many games played on that one). Super excited
lysecret 57 minutes ago||
so cool! Loved sup com
samstress 3 hours ago||
Random meta comment - but have you noticed that especially Codex generated websites tend to have these 01, 02, 03 numbers as part of card layouts? (see the section just below the header). It's almost the em-dash equivalent for AI built website detection.
wormius 2 hours ago|
I really despise these AI generated websites, they often look so samey. IDK about the numbering, but the overuse of cards everywhere, and abusing my favorite color schemes (tokyo-night, dracula style), really irritates me (esp, the color schemes, way to ruin even colors, guys).

It makes me dislike whatever they're trying to "sell" (literally or metaphorically). I wish people who wanted to be "creative" would you know... be creative, not just "push button, machine go brrr" which is what half this stuff spits out. Template, generic, no individuality. Hyper "professional" looking (but just "cool" enough to not be completely corporate).

On the other hand some of these look better and are more responsive than older sites that were definitely fuglier, klunky and less responsive. It feels like there's a middle ground, which I think is where good designer comes into play.

userbinator 46 minutes ago|||
I don't think that's unique to AI --- many sites always had the same bland style, especially corporate ones, and I remember all the complaints about bootstrap.css when that was the trend many years ago.
pizzafeelsright 1 hour ago|||
I witness a large amount of AI generated pages at work and in the wild. Creative control belongs to the human because without it you get a scientifically accurate model without the stargazing factor.

I have built a few better sites after AI generates the shell. The colors and styling need about a dozen human interactions to get something passable as human created.

philipov 3 hours ago||
Planetary Annihilation was made by some of the people who worked on Total Annihilation:

https://store.steampowered.com/app/386070/Planetary_Annihila...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planetary_Annihilation

More than just a spiritual successor, imo.

jaggederest 2 hours ago||
Unfortunately did not even come close to capturing the magic of the original or TASpring / BAR though, sadly. I wanted to like it but it suffered from a lot of sequelitis.
ffsm8 2 hours ago|||
That game always felt more like supreme commander then TA to me... Personally I preferred the foss games spawned out of the spring engine like eg zero-k and the previously mentioned beyond all reason over it
philipov 2 hours ago||
It's true that the game director Jon Mavor, who wrote the graphics engine for TA, was also the lead programmer on SC. And he's not the only point of confluence between the two games.
detritus 1 hour ago||
Yerp, sadly spherical maps just didn't work. Imho, obv, but I really did try and persevere with it, believing in it at the time.
vladms 25 minutes ago||
Not sure about this one, but there is another engine that started as a Total Annihilation clone: https://recoilengine.org/

Some of the (open source) games on that engine (https://beyondallreason.info/ and https://zero-k.info/) have similar feeling with the original TA, with quite different play styles. I do prefer Zero-K over Beyond All Reason, but I would recommend anyone interested in the genre to try both and decide for themselves.

Tarks 13 minutes ago|
Zero K is deceptively amazing, like StarCraft mixed with supreme commander.

The lead Dev's "Cold takes" blog series are dripping with the sort of insights you only get from years of hard won iteration and if you like RTS games are a joy to read : https://zero-k.info/mediawiki/Cold_Takes

Attummm 18 minutes ago||
This is incredible and still one of the best RTS games available. However, the old rendering engine somehow looks more appealing a similar issue with Shogun 2.
Waterluvian 3 hours ago||
I love this so much. Something I’m a bit obsessed with lately is watching AIs (the classic kind) battling endlessly in games like this. Total Annihilation is a great fit for it because the maps are often wide open and grand scale.

I think Beyond all Reason has had some 50v50s or close that are a bit ridiculous to watch.

nubinetwork 2 hours ago|
TA's ai was pretty dumb, actually... on most maps with unpassable water, they'll happily crank out kbots without building any ships or planes, until it hits the unit limit.
Waterluvian 1 hour ago||
Yup. Being able to API like open broodwar creates a way to make the game an arena for AIs on a ladder. Then there’s some more interesting stuff that can go on.

I love the idea of having some reinforcement learning approach that keeps generating new AI versions that play each other indefinitely.

wobblywobbegong 3 hours ago|
Spiritual successor already exists: https://github.com/beyond-all-reason/Beyond-All-Reason
pohl 51 minutes ago|
Sort of. Back in the day I could play TA on my Mac.
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