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Posted by Zeekaas 15 hours ago

Hackers activate automatic defrosting in supermarket fridges across Europe(www.tomshardware.com)
https://www.reuters.com/business/retail-consumer/french-supe..., https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/crq5nzxv9q4yo, https://www.lemonde.fr/en/france/article/2026/10/12/french-s...

Related:

https://www.claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controlle...

I think the military commissary's freezers were hacked - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49508506 - Aug 2026 (239 comments)

478 points | 680 commentspage 9
mneil 11 hours ago|
This is terrible. But, at the same time, why now? This seems like something you'd want to hold onto for use later as a nation state. And there's no money to be made here since you can't really ransom it. Was this just a petty attack to scare the public?

On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer and others will have an increased security posture going forward.

codedokode 10 hours ago||
> On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer

I initially misread it as "On the bright side, I'm the manufacturer..." (and earn a nice profit).

queenkjuul 11 hours ago|||
Manufacturer abdicated saying those models are no longer supported and so not receive security updates.

Wonderful world we live in where refrigerators and cars also become e-waste because a manufacturer gets tired of patching them

esseph 10 hours ago||
> Wonderful world we live in where refrigerators and cars also become e-waste because a manufacturer gets tired of patching them

We're in a "post-patching world" in that the number of 0days coming out is so rapid, I'm not sure it would even matter.

The physical architecture itself is the problem. There needs to be better controls (physical and software) to access those systems. Airgap possibily.

newsclues 11 hours ago|||
Who benefits from chaos? There is a war raging in Europe, maybe start there
ungreased0675 11 hours ago||
Exactly. This is fifth generation warfare.
newsclues 10 hours ago||
Unrestricted warfare is a book more people read to be aware of
psychoslave 11 hours ago|||
Script kiddies are on LLM steroids now. I’m so glad I kept my home "smart" stuffs fully disconnected from any network. No, I can’t control my home temperature from the other side of the world when in vacation, and so can’t the rest of the world until they physically enter it.
bambax 11 hours ago|||
I think that's exactly what happened. A kid found out (via an LLM or otherwise) that fridges' temperature were remotely controlled, probably with lax security (or no security at all) and decided to play with it.

It's not immediately obvious to me why fridges in supermarkets need remote control; a supermarket is a place where there are always people, it's not a base on Mars. And even if a remote is needed, it should probably not go further than the manager's office.

Shank 11 hours ago|||
> It's not immediately obvious to me why fridges in supermarkets need remote control

I don’t know to what degree control is needed, but remote supervision of cold holding temperatures is good to make sure food doesn’t spoil. Most places that don’t have networked fridges have staff manually logging the cold holding temperatures to make sure things are working.

Again, though, I don’t know about making changes though.

bambax 11 hours ago|||
In this case it's not like the devices were turned off, they were put on "defrost" which means heating up to 50°C (122°F). Why would you need the ability to remotely set all your fridges to defrost??
amluto 11 hours ago||
One possibility is that it’s maybe useful for the fleet operator to be able to remotely update firmware and the attacker used that.

The other, more likely, answer is that there’s a diagnostic mode that allows raw control of the system and no one bothered to require physical presence to enable service mode.

With remote firmware update capability, at attacker could easily brick the entire fleet. With just service access it could be possible but would be more complex.

bmilleare 11 hours ago|||
I remember having to do this every few hours 25 years ago when working at a store part-time as a student.

Having networked telemetry seems like a good idea, just not sure why they would need remote control too - that seems far more dangerous than necessary.

queenkjuul 11 hours ago|||
15 years ago a retail chain i worked for had all their HVAC thermostats centrally managed by corporate. This isn't new and it is stupid but how else do you ensure shareholders keep every possible cent of profit (in the short term of course)
NetMageSCW 8 hours ago||
Superstore had a few episodes about the consequences of that.
drillsteps5 7 hours ago|||
Alternative theory: Google's "mea culpa" on "misalignment incident" while testing the agents using their "next gen frontier model" is coming out in three... two... one...
AnimalMuppet 11 hours ago|||
> On the bright side I'm sure the manufacturer and others will have an increased security posture going forward.

Wow, are you an optimist. The manufacturer has stated that they're past the period of security updates. And others... meaning the supermarkets? They outsource that. The people they outsource it to? Maybe they'll start paying attention to security.

pvaldes 11 hours ago|||
> why now?

Probably to inflict pain on the life of the voters so they can blame the government and manipulate the 2027 French presidential election in April. Maybe just a test.

Same as the high velocity train being sabotaged again just in the Spain national day. Hybrid war.

input_sh 10 hours ago||
Come election day, do you really think many people's deciding factor would be a supermarket refrigerator incident from half a year ago? Especially considering that around the same time something far more... shall I say politically meaningful was happening at the same time, such as students protesting the lack of school funding?
pvaldes 9 hours ago||
This is just one in a thousand problems that will happen until that day. A high velocity train wagon was set on flames today, blocking the railway and creating chaos among thousands of passengers that try to return home after the holidays. Why?, because it makes the government look bad, and inflicts maximum pain on people, just when Spain is also about to celebrate elections. Angry people vote the loudest voices.

In France this benefits the pro-Russian Lepen's party with the "government is a disaster but we will make them pay for your suffering". Page "16" of the manual. In the end is all the same handbook all around the planet.

Just by the record, EU has just approved the biggest packet of sanctions against Russia so yes, they know. The more desperate grows Russia, the more this will happen. Until it will stop, suddenly, for no reason.

dist-epoch 11 hours ago||
You assume there must be some nation state behind it.

But it could be just for the lulz.

Remember the hackers behind the seven proxies, AntiSec, which hacked the NATO library website, and went to prison for it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_AntiSec

pjmlp 14 hours ago||
Another good example why writing secure software matters in the age of connected devices.
blooalien 13 hours ago||
> Another good example why writing secure software matters in the age of connected devices.

I wonder how many more decades of screaming into the void will be required for it to be taken seriously by those who deny any/all security efforts until after the disaster has already happened (and then still will only approve the absolute minimum required efforts)...

pjmlp 12 hours ago||
Well, if we start counting from Morris worm, without liability in place, plenty more.
flohofwoe 14 hours ago|||
Of course the bigger question is why a refrigerator is even a "connected device".
pjmlp 14 hours ago|||
Because it is cool! (pun intended)

For the same reason, we hardly have heating meters in Germany that aren't wireless connected to the maintenance company.

To save costs doing maintenance trips to check their state.

arwineap 14 hours ago|||
So they can monitor if something goes wrong, have a tech troubleshoot and deploy with the right parts.

Modern HVAC and fire control b systems for buildings are often connected now as well

asdff 8 hours ago|||
You can do that while gapping the actual fridge function. Network connected temp probe and dumb fridge. These sort of systems are used in lab setting where its all dumb fridges and freezers, and very precious things inside.
flohofwoe 14 hours ago|||
Yes it was more of a rhetorical question, e.g. maybe we need to rethink that whole idea of plugging everything into the internet and instead go back to air-gapped "local area networks".

It also wouldn't be a big deal when a supermarket employee makes an old-fashioned phone call (gasp!) to the refrigerator service company when some red light starts blinking ;)

pjmlp 13 hours ago|||
The poor fellow, or gal, now has to endure AI bots while trying to call support on the phone.
Delphiza 13 hours ago||
While the app is beeping at them to pack more shelves, and they have already used up their only toilet break of the day to trying to stop the resourcing AI chatbot from putting them on triple shifts for the rest of the week.
Delphiza 13 hours ago||||
The trained and retained supermarket employees are gone. The refrigeration service engineer has been replaced by an AI chatbot. We can't scale to qualified people running complex systems on remote air-gapped networks.
NetMageSCW 5 hours ago|||
It would be unfortunate if the red light starts blinking at midnight.
burnt-resistor 5 hours ago||
Formal methods for reliable software and properly configured systems secure by default.
lemoncookiechip 15 hours ago||
Why is this even connected to the internet. If you want to monitor it remotely, you can set that independently from the actual controls.
zephen 7 hours ago||
Remind me again why I should buy an internet-connected refrigerator?
chrisjj 11 hours ago||
> The software allows retailers to manage their cold units remotely.

Will they never learn?

lxgr 10 hours ago||
To not control any industrial processes remotely? I hope you realize that requiring that would make solar and wind farms completely non-viable, among many, many other things.
mrweasel 9 hours ago|||
Leased lines, MPLS, custom routing setups, hell just a VPN that fails closed. There are so many options for doing this, all more secure that just slapping a device online behind whatever router the cheapest ISP gave you.

The problem is that many of these setups are put behind essentially consumer connections, but with a better support contract or simply fitted with a 5G modem and a SIM card from the cell provider with the cheapest plan.

Building a WAN isn't magic, but it does require working with (competent) ISPs and paying the higher cost.

SoftTalker 10 hours ago||||
Remote control does not mean "has a public IP address."

Yes you might need to be able to centrally monitor and manage things but that should be happening on a private network.

adrian_b 9 hours ago||
A public IP address may be a necessity, but with a properly configured VPN it is irrelevant whether anyone knows the public IP addresses.
iugtmkbdfil834 10 hours ago||||
Surely, there must be a way that does not force the devices onto world wide web..
sgc 10 hours ago||
Seems like 95% of devices could be managed with a hardware filter that only allows through a handful of very rudimentary signals (more like Morse code than a full digital transmission), and then of course a properly designed on-device API that defines those signals and doesn't allow you to trigger a defrost remotely, when that should only ever be done with somebody physically present for example.
lxgr 9 hours ago||
Morse code is a fully digital transmission.

How exactly would a more obscure (or even “analog”) encoding help? This seems orthogonal to reducing surface complexity and remotely executable command subsets.

sgc 5 hours ago||
The point is having the digital transmission simple enough that you can use fully *physical* filters to discard everything but the 3-4 messages you need through. Of course it is still digital, but my point is, it is a physically enforced studied, safe subset and doesn't allow for full network access. There are of course a variety of ways to further firewall that, but something needs to act like as much of an air gap as possible while allowing for remote communications.
lxgr 4 hours ago||
How do you authenticate such a system? 3-4 “quasi analog” messages seem incredibly easy to replay, if nothing else. If you need to depend on something actually cryptographic to make the system replay proof, you can just as well use that system for all aspects of access control. This makes no sense.
sgc 1 hour ago||
Well it would receive control signals from an on-site relay server with the hardware to communicate with it, and that would of course also be firewalled and use encryption to communicate with the outside world. That server could always in theory become compromised despite your best efforts, so the benefit is obvious: don't create even the theoretic possibility of being hacked by a class of message that should never exist.

The idea is not to solve everything with one simple trick, but to reduce the attack surface as much as possible in hardware. If you are dumb enough to make your 4 messages something like off, on, hard reset, random dangerous maintenance protocol, then it does nothing. If instead it encodes 4 useful and typically used states that can't destroy your system, then you have massively reduced the requirement for onsite, and accepted that more serious issues require onsite control.

iAMkenough 10 hours ago|||
I'm interested to know how many "legacy" controllers no longer patched by the manufacturer are operating solar and wind farms today.

If it's a lot, maybe the manufacturers should be compelled to provide security patches if remote control is required to operate their products. For the sake of national security, of course.

card_zero 10 hours ago||
If they didn't do it that way, some bad things would happen: sometimes a fridge would fail and the food in that fridge would spoil.
Freak_NL 10 hours ago|||
* Fridges are welcome to send a panic message.

* Fridges are read-only through their remote interface.

Both of these can be true if you must connect them to the internet.

chrisjj 8 hours ago||||
You're saying remote control stops a fridge failing? Or a fail spoiling the food?

I doubt the fridge has a remote-controlled robot arm to unload itself.

card_zero 4 hours ago||
I have no idea what the mechanism would be, I was just enjoying the irony of the worst case being that individual fridges would fail sometimes.
mrguyorama 9 hours ago|||
That's funny, last I checked my fridge keeps food reliably cold with no internet connection, and most supermarkets have people around all the time to notice such a failure, a plan around such a failure, and expect to have such a failure periodically since fridges break down anyway.

Meanwhile you can use analog gauges if you need perfect max temperature monitoring.

That's what always pisses me off about this. Someone brought up "Hey, if we connect this to the internet to enable that feature, someone will start hacking fridges and hurting our customers, and I don't think the stupid page with a temperature graph on it is worth that tradeoff", and some ass told them to get over it and implement it.

Raymond Chen used to write about feature development at Microsoft, specifically how every single new feature idea started from a negative position, since it requires support and testing and engineering and thought, and has future repercussions, so it's often not a good idea to just add box checking features.

Microsoft believed this in the 90s. For things like UI functionality. That's the effort and thought and restraint required to have a consistent UI, for things to be thought out.

Somehow, between then and now, the industry threw all that thought away, and now everything has 400 totally unused, half implemented, utterly broken features.

Why are we here? "Move fast and break things" just breaks everything eventually. Someone, somewhere, eventually has to fix stuff.

chrisjj 6 hours ago||
> "Move fast and break things" just breaks everything eventually. Someone, somewhere, eventually has to fix stuff.

That's termed Post-IPO problem. :)

hn_throwaway_99 11 hours ago||
This is literally everything that's wrong with the modern tech industry in a nutshell:

> Danfoss told AFP in a statement that most of the affected equipment was "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates".

They sell fricken refrigerators for God's sake. Maybe I can understand planned obsolescence for a cell phone, but a fridge? And especially to grocery stores that operate on razor thin margins to begin with, the idea that they'll just dump their old working refrigerators because the manufacturer refused security updates is a guaranteed recipe for stuff like this.

matthiasl 9 hours ago||
Danfoss are quoted as naming two systems, AK-SM800 and AK-SC355.

AK-SM800 looks like a current product. Danfoss have a PDF dated 2026.06 about it: https://assets.danfoss.com/documents/latest/590332/BC3376298.... This mentions "All new Electronics platform supporting new Operating System (based on Linux)", and specifically advises against connecting it to the internet.. Reading between the lines, especially section 10.5, it sounds like there was a major security revamp in 'release 4.0'. The article mentions "outdated firmware", so perhaps that refers to things before 4.0.

AK-SC355 looks like a product from 2010 (that's the date in the PDF metadata, plus the examples in the manual mention 2009). https://3.imimg.com/data3/ID/LC/MY-3170595/danfoss-system-ma...

I haven't worked with supermarket control systems, so I only know what I've read in the PDFs, but it looks like this is not about throwing out entire fridges to update the control system. If you have the newer AK-SM800, it looks like the suggested action is to update firmware and follow instructions about keeping it well away from internet access. If you have the older AK-SC355, then keeping it away from the internet is even more important. Or, update to AK-SC355.

_ache_ 10 hours ago|||
It is a way to move the responsibility to the "users".

But the hack has already been disclosed and it's the responsability of the manufacturer to ensure that the fridge keep ever up to date or offline.

As with the USA Defense hack, it could have been prevented.

The hack: https://blog.claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controll...

hn_throwaway_99 10 hours ago||
Ugh, this is even worse. The vuln was just disclosed a couple months ago, and so it was literally just a matter of time if not all systems were patched.

I can't for the life of me understand why these systems aren't air gapped, or at the very least network access is restricted to a small number of IPs or hardware keys.

zer00eyz 11 hours ago|||
I have to question why this control system was even in place.

I could see remote monitoring (of temps) and logging on the system (cycle time etc) but does one really need to control the defrost cycle? It's probably just a web interface on a single controller that used to be accessed by HVAC techs only.

> > "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates".

Because it's the EU I have to wonder if they will finally mandate that software go into escrow and be released if support stops.

isodev 10 hours ago||
> Because it's the EU I have to wonder if they will finally mandate that software go into escrow and be released if support stops.

Hopefully it will extend to consumer tech like iPhones and other “waste as soon as {corp} is done with it”

quickthrowman 11 hours ago||
Grocery stores do not use standalone refrigerators, I’m not sure why I have to keep repeating this fact when every single person has been in a grocery store and seen refrigerated cases that have a dozen or more doors.

They use cold cases and have rooftop or outdoor condensing units and evaporators inside of the cold cases/freezers/etc. There’s refrigerant piping running all over the place and there’s a bunch of sensors and relays that are automated to manage the refrigeration system.

My assumption is the Danfoss control system they’re using is EOL, it’s the grocer’s responsibility to upgrade their automation equipment if it’s unsupported.

sergdigon 10 hours ago|||
No need to make assumption here, the article says it clearly:

> Danfoss told AFP in a statement that most of the affected equipment was "legacy" products which "no longer receive software or security updates". It said its AK-SM800 and AK-SC355 fridge regulator systems were notably affected, with a version of the former using "outdated firmware". It added that it had long advised supermarkets to update from those models.

That being said I am curious what is typically the amount of time for software support offered on a newly released equipment and how common it is for super market to use obsolete software (especially for the part which carry some security risk like something with remote control). Also what about the insurance? Will they (fully) cover the financial loss? I don't know what is in their insurance contract and I am not a lawyer but it seems to me that using obsolete software make the supermarket responsible to some extent

MC995 9 hours ago||
> how common it is for super market to use obsolete software (especially for the part which carry some security risk like something with remote control).

It's a near guarantee. I've been in dozens of power plants where the engineering workstations or operator interface terminals are running Windows XP or Windows 7. More than zero of which were not properly air-gapped. If those sites (with sizable CapEx budgets) delay upgrading for various reasons I would expect grocery store chains to keep whatever they have running until it's broken to the point of not being fixable without a complete overhaul.

jt2190 10 hours ago||||
I assume you’re talking about a system like this:

https://www.danfoss.com/en/industries/food-and-beverage/dcs/...

bob1029 10 hours ago||||
I'm with you on the remote monitoring but why do we need remote control?

Dispatch an HVAC tech if an alarm comes up. Physical access should be the only way to shut down a system like this.

quickthrowman 10 hours ago||
> Physical access should be the only way to shut down a system like this.

Your opinion does not change the fact that virtually every automation system can be access remotely. It can be done safely with proper access controls.

bob1029 9 hours ago||
> It can be done safely with proper access controls.

gestures broadly

mrob 10 hours ago||||
That doesn't excuse them being controllable over the Internet. I can understand that remote monitoring is important, but it's in a supermarket. There's always going to be somebody on site who can control things locally. The telemetry can be transmitted via data diode, automatically re-transmitting on schedule so there's no need for any remote control.
quickthrowman 10 hours ago||
> There's always going to be somebody on site who can control things locally.

No, there is not always someone onsite with the experience and knowledge to monitor and change the system. Grocery stores do not have staff refrigeration techs onsite, they contract that out.

mrob 10 hours ago|||
There's always going to be a manager with access to keys. They get the HVAC tech on the phone and set the controls as instructed. They're still vulnerable to somebody scamming them into setting the controls wrong, but they at least have a chance of recognizing who they're talking to, and recognizing obviously crazy instructions (e.g. "turn the thermostat up to 50 degrees"). And even if they don't, the attack is a lot harder to scale with a human in the loop.
mrguyorama 7 hours ago|||
Then maybe companies should stop firing people with experience and knowledge. Maybe they served a purpose after all.

The family run supermarket I'm very familiar with that eventually was taken over by Hannaford absolutely had their own HVAC techs. Years ago at least.

You know what Hannaford did to that store after they bought it? They said that it would have to be a "smaller" store in their system, with less product diversity, fewer departments, less attention, less investment.

Do you know what that store was famous for, and why Hannaford placed it as the center of that deal? Because it did really really well, ran very profitably, and was essentially preferred by the (poor) community despite the Walmart 10 miles away. This store was so well run in the opinion of Hannaford Corporate, that they gave the former assistant manager, who had a working relationship with Hannaford for 20 years, priority over other internal applicants for high level management roles in order to get him to fix their problems at other stores. They lost another valuable manager due to that decision!

Their problems at another store were that it takes in $1 million a day but they refuse to pay more than local minimum wage to staff it. They struggled to keep that store staffed well, and this store in one of the wealthiest neighborhoods in the area looked like shit because stuff was never done.

Hannaford is currently seeing incredibly stiff competition from Market Basket and Costco. People who have trusted Hannaford (in the new england way where it means something) their entire lives are turncoating to Market Basket because why the hell not? It's just a store. They all suck. They can't compete on prices because distributors and upstream corporate behemoths set the prices. They can't compete on quality, because they buy that product from the exact same truck. The company explicitly has chosen to go the direction of competing on vibes of "Upmarket" product lines from the in house brand.

You know what Hannaford didn't do? Raise wages. You know what that Manager eventually did? He re-retired and gave up the good pay, good benefits, reliable and easy income to trade for being a physical laborer and building decks for rich people, because then nobody will be so stupid as to tell him to not do the things that he knows would improve things, and has the 40 year career to back it up. Hannaford had been courting him since the 90s, because that's literally how competent he was. This man went back to destroying his body, after a diagnosis of Rheumatoid Arthritis, After a new Marriage, after economic uncertainty, because he literally wasn't allowed to be a good fucking manager of a business that he has known in his bones for decades. They didn't let him solve all their problems! Because either that would have affected how they want their profits to work, or because that's just how stupidly pig-headed and petty the modern Executive class is.

lowbloodsugar 10 hours ago|||
“God news shareholders! We have decided that we didn’t make enough sales this quarter so we have EOLed a whole range of products!”
quickthrowman 10 hours ago||
I understand you’re being sarcastic, but yes, eventually technology gets better so a manufacturer refreshes their product line. This is extremely common in many industries.
BenjiWiebe 3 hours ago|||
And in some industries it's extremely common to not replace something every time something newer and maybe even better is available.

We fix it when it breaks. We replace it when even the aftermarket doesn't supply the parts to keep it working.

SoftTalker 9 hours ago||||
They do but they continue to service the old lines for quite a long time. This is not consumer grade equipment, it represents a large capital expense and also at stake is valuable inventory. The consumer "you're SOL when the warranty expires" approach won't fly.
lowbloodsugar 10 hours ago|||
"French supermarkets hacked because this is common in many industries". Maybe it should not be common? Maybe selling internet connected industrial plant means those things must be supported forever?
hk1337 15 hours ago||
[dead]
ex-aws-dude 15 hours ago||
Why is that even internet enabled?

If you want to defrost it presumably someone already needs to be physically present to unload the fridge?

Kevin_Flynn 15 hours ago||
My guess, its a service contractor type situation, like getting a smart meter. You can opt out, you just wont have power.

They had a contract with a fridge company, and the service agreement required remote monitoring such that, the service company would be able to detect and troubleshoot remotely, and schedule calls.

The problem with situations like these is that your network security falls to the lowest common denominator, which in this case, is a group of HVAC technicians.

The conversation was something like this:

HVAC company: "Oh yeah, our software does this, and that, and we monitor everything, and thats why our contract is less, we dont waste time and we use sophisticated technology. And of course its 100% secure because expert boffins wrote it."

Grocer w/ 2% margins: "Sounds great."

To be clear, I'm not throwing shade on HVAC technicians. I'm only saying, they aren't network security specialists, thats all.

wongarsu 14 hours ago|||
Somebody wrote the software that is the interface between the fridge and the internet. And while it would be nice if HVAC technicians would remember to only make this software accessible via VPN, it is in fact possible to write software that is reachable from the internet while still being secure

Given that we agree that HVAC technicians can't be relied on for network security, this is 100% on the fridge company for having insecure software. If it's a bad password or an unchanged default password that's still on the fridge company for not enforcing something better

Kevin_Flynn 14 hours ago|||
Of course its "possible" for it to be secure, but the people involved are not experts.

The grocer likely has the least expertise. The HVAC company has more, but as evidenced by the article, not enough.

Now obviously, these companies have internal "information systems experts" but again, how does the banana guy interview a CIO ? Grocery store CIO might have gotten the job because he made the banana guy comfortable by talking about sports.

Each party was confident in a successful outcome, until the 15 year old kid across the globe pulled the rug.

The processes that created this situation were inadequate, because glad handing and name dropping cost less than formal systems validation.

Of course, the other way to view all of this is ... they just completed formal systems validation, found 1 bug, and paid whatever the food spoilage cost was for it, because no matter how much preperation one does on a project, at some point the power switch gets flipped, and its wait and see.

In a group project, noone is ever sure if Poindexter over there in the corner is quiet because he's quiet, or is quiet because he knows the code is crap and his boss ordered him to ship it anyway.

We're likely dealing with at least 4 companies here, if not more:

contracted programmers <-> fridge equipment maker <-> HVAC sales/service group <-> grocer

3 of the 4 companies could have all said to themselves "Project ships on Monday, no matter what" because who carries the risks for any flaws ? The grocer(s).

dns_snek 13 hours ago||
> Of course its "possible" for it to be secure, but the people involved are not experts.

They're selling network-accessible equipment so it's their duty to make it secure within some well-defined envelope. How's that any different from any other part of engineering and product development?

> "Project ships on Monday, no matter what" because who carries the risks for any flaws

Soon that will be the OEMs, per the EU Cyber Resilience Act [1]:

> Directive (EU) 2024/2853 [on liability for defective products] of the European Parliament and of the Council (16) is complementary to this Regulation. That Directive sets out liability rules for defective products so that injured persons can claim compensation when a damage has been caused by defective products. It establishes the principle that the manufacturer of a product is liable for damages caused by a lack of safety in their product irrespective of fault (strict liability). Where such a lack of safety consists in a lack of security updates after the placing on the market of the product, and this causes damage, the liability of the manufacturer could be triggered. Obligations for manufacturers that concern the provision of such security updates should be laid down in this Regulation.

[1] https://eur-lex.europa.eu/eli/reg/2024/2847/oj/eng

Kevin_Flynn 12 hours ago||
Given the potential service contract nature of this particular situation, where the grocers signed a service agreement with HVAC companies, one would think the contract included clauses addressing this very situation, where a significant loss of inventory occurs. After all, the service being paid for is refrigeration.

With floor planning, the loss itself could be spread across multiple companies, under multiple insurance policies.

With that said, this particular hack could easily be a systems / networking "configuration error" and not any particular piece of softwares fault ( as in a bug, or hardcoded backdoor password. )

Delphiza 14 hours ago|||
IoT platforms provided all the required functionality. Device provisioning (it is not easy to do identity on 'things'). MQTT for service-assisted communication where devices don't need to accept incoming connections. Over-the-air software updates. Over-the-air kernel security updates.

The 'fridge company' and other product manufacturers decided to skip all that and run everything on a raspberry pi with apache, or an ESP32 soldered onto the control board, and call it finished. There are millions of these devices out there.

Kevin_Flynn 14 hours ago||
I just read the article again. It mentions "Danfoss" HVAC controls.

I happen to have a Danfoss HVAC controller here, and its controllable via Modbus. Its an older model, but its my understanding that larger HVAC systems commonly use Modbus.

Modbus systems are multi-drop serial, and the hack likely came in from the server side of one of the companies involved, and the HVAC controllers were all sent defrost commands. Thats my guess anyway.

I have a pump thats Modbus controllable as well, made by a company called Grundfos.

Gonna make a water battery.

Shift my cooling load into off-peak rate hours.

Stickin it to the power man. :D

Seriously, you guys would love these pumps.

https://product-selection.grundfos.com/us/products/magna-nor...

It has wifi. Neighbor kids are gonna defrost me. :(

lrasinen 10 hours ago|||
Modbus is the equivalent of VGA connector in displays and projectors. It does have a TCP/IP version as well, but it has no security whatsoever. Or any features besides reading/writing a 16-bit value (or a single bit, charmingly referred to as "coil")
Kevin_Flynn 10 hours ago||
Absolutely.

I'm in the beginning stages of giving my home HVAC system an upgrade and using Modbus throughout with various adapter boards.

Delphiza 14 hours ago|||
Yes, that is likely. Although Danfoss seems to have their own controllers, I think that you are right, that the attack was not an 'Internet connected fridge', but an HVAC or FMS (Facilities Management System) that was connected to the fridges.
Delphiza 11 hours ago||
My mistake. It is stupider than that. Facepalm.

https://www.claroty.com/team82/research/freeze-the-controlle...

Kevin_Flynn 10 hours ago||
Resubmit that article as its own headline. Good find.
Tangurena2 13 hours ago||||
In the 2013 Target attack, the attackers used the HVAC contractors' credentials to gain access to Target's systems. The point of sale credit card terminals (what customers swiped cards and enter PINs) had no real security so the attackers were able to make those get "updates" from their own servers and download malware enabling them to get the magnetic stripe information as well as PIN (for debit cards). That year, I (like about 150,000,000 other people) got a brand new credit card with a new credit card number.

https://krebsonsecurity.com/2015/09/inside-target-corp-days-...

Newer PCI standards require much more secure customer-facing terminals and much more secure back-end systems so that much of this attack could not happen again.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Payment_Card_Industry_Data_Sec...

m000 14 hours ago|||
> Grocer w/ 2% margins

You have clearly never stepped foot inside an Albert Heijn store.

Kevin_Flynn 14 hours ago||
> You have clearly never stepped foot inside an Albert Heijn store.

I have not. I travel in the ALDI circle.

2.1% net profit is what AI says the US grocery industry averages, so individual product margins would be higher.

polytely 15 hours ago|||
Yeah I feel like cheap enough AI will make having internet connected appliances such a huge liability that most devices will have to go back to as dumb as possible
0123456789ABCDE 15 hours ago|||
someone, or something, needs to monitor the fridges remotely, which means networked thing with all the cute little details of the IOT tacked to it

edit: these are unlikely to be directly connected to the internet, but rather part of an internal network that got popped, likely a while a go too

quickthrowman 14 hours ago||
Have you ever been to a grocery store?

These aren’t consumer refrigerators, it’s a collection of large cold rooms and cases with a bunch of refrigerant tubing and multiple condensers, evaporators, and sensors. It’s a bit more complex than a single home refrigerator.

raegis 1 hour ago||
No offense, but they were like this in the 1980s, before the internet,
swarfield 11 hours ago|
Why the fuck are those fridges even networked!?
esikich 11 hours ago||
Because they need remote monitoring. I have experience with HVAC so I'm guessing these are similar: typically outsourced to a third party, typically a VM running on a dedicated server, accessible by Citrix or something similar. Supermarkets don't internally staff fridge repairmen.
asdff 11 hours ago|||
They could just use connected temperature probes though. no need to connect the power supply of the damn compressor to the internet.
pixl97 9 hours ago||
A lot of these devices are temperature controllable as the product in them may require different temperatures. They can have temperature ranges from refrigeration to freezing.

Also adjust power usage depending on time of day and such.

asdff 8 hours ago||
You can schedule power usage with a dummy controller. I'm not sure of any products sold that are that specific to temp in my grocery store at least. Either it is refrigerated or frozen.
esikich 3 hours ago||
Have you ever had to manage any of these things or are you just guessing?
adverbly 10 hours ago|||
You don't need to network the fridge though... You just need a networked sensor...
esikich 9 hours ago||
That's assuming you just need to maintain a static temperature, which probably isn't the case.
faidit 11 hours ago|||
None of the supermarkets were managed by Commander Adama, apparently.
ceejayoz 11 hours ago|||
Centralized maintenance and monitoring?
pavel_lishin 11 hours ago|||
Monitoring makes sense, but it feels like it makes no sense at all to allow that kind of remote maintenance without staff on-site to OK and verify it - who could then do the maintenance themselves.

Otherwise, this sort of spoilage could easily happen by accident as well.

blitzar 10 hours ago|||
> remote maintenance without staff on-site to OK and verify it - who could then do the maintenance themselves

These are minimum wage workers - they don't have bean bags in the nap room, employee massages and stock options.

esikich 11 hours ago|||
Supermarkets don't staff HVAC/fridge repairmen. There are separate companies they pay to do this.
queenkjuul 11 hours ago||
Right: and someone from that company can come out and do maintenance when the monitoring indicates it's necessary
vkou 10 hours ago||
When, say, your internet craps out, would you rather your ISP try to resolve the problem, or schedule to send a tech out to your home before they start working on fixing the issue?

Groceries see HVAC in the same way. If they can get their issue addressed or diagnosed by their HVAC contractor without him having to schedule and physically travel to their site, they'd prefer him to solve/start solving the problem immediately. Time is money and the faster the tech can diagnose the problem, the faster he can get on fixing it.

And yes, the prevalence of these systems means that many HVAC techs have the ability to turn off their customers' air conditioners/fridges. They don't use it maliciously, because that would be actual suicide for their business.

---

Source: A close friend of mine runs an HVAC business (~8 employees) doing residential and commercial installs, repairs, and maintenance.

christophilus 11 hours ago||||
It seems like the sort of thing you’d do in-store and firewalled from the internet.
layer8 11 hours ago|||
You’d have to pay competent local staff for that.
asdff 11 hours ago||
How do you think grocery stores worked pre internet?
ceejayoz 10 hours ago|||
Lots of things worked pre-internet that now rely on internet in ways that would be rather chaotic and messy to undo.
layer8 6 hours ago||||
They were paying competent local staff pre-internet.
pixl97 9 hours ago|||
You're going to have to convince VC and PE to give up the massive profits they're raking in.
esikich 11 hours ago||||
The article didn't say they weren't.
lenerdenator 11 hours ago|||
"That, like, costs money, man. The accounting department said there was a 1-in-100 year chance of this happening if we didn't shell out, so we didn't." - the CEO, probably.
asdff 11 hours ago||||
That might justify a temperature probe in a dumb fridge. This smells of a salesman being here not an engineer though.
swarfield 11 hours ago||||
Makes sense but monitoring doesn't mean you have to have remote control of power.
ceejayoz 10 hours ago||
"Utility has alerted us to an upcoming brown-out in a region impacting 40 stores. Cool everything down a few extra degrees in preparation."
mrob 10 hours ago||
A phone call from the HVAC company and physical thermostat dial (in a locked cabinet to prevent incompetent/malicious employees tampering with it) seems a safer solution.
ceejayoz 9 hours ago|||
Some grocery stores - and this is probably far more common in France - have no staff overnight.

I think the cost/benefit equation is gonna collapse in the era of AIs exploting vulnerabilities at scale, but it's not like there's zero theoretical benefit of this capability on its own.

pixl97 9 hours ago|||
And when it happens at 3 in the morning? And when those people are in a meeting 10 miles down the road?

Take away the security aspect and centralized management is just so much easier and reliable. Humans suck at doing things they were supposed to.

codedokode 10 hours ago|||
And centralized food destruction.
quickthrowman 11 hours ago|||
They aren’t fridges, it’s a grocery store. You have obviously been in one, there are cases with a dozen doors that all open to the same cold case.

There is a ton of refrigerant piping, multiple condensing units, multiple evaporators, relays, and sensors connected to a controller that automates the refrigeration system. Not standalone refrigerators.

I shouldn’t need to list the benefits of remotely monitoring a system that can cause tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars if it fails.

forgetfreeman 10 hours ago||
Given the perfectly workable alternative of not having remote monitoring and simply having the store manager contact a repair tech on the exceedingly rare occasion that there is an issue, yeah I think actually you do need to justify the added complexity and expense of making this kind of mundane equipment internet accessible.
pixl97 9 hours ago|||
These systems only exist because those economics were decided decades ago. Issues are not exceptions in systems like this. They are huge, complex, and interface with the public.

The systems track all kinds of data and are decent at predicting failures before they get expensive.

forgetfreeman 8 hours ago||
Marketing. The restaurant industry doesn't have less skin in the game than grocery retailers re avoiding spoilage and net connected walk-in coolers and freezers are not a thing.
SoftTalker 10 hours ago|||
From my experience in a restaurant, those large commercial rooftop refrigeration/freezer units need attention several times a year. It's rare that your home fridge would have trouble that often but commercial units are more complicated and in a harsher environment. And supermarket installations are probably even more complicated.
forgetfreeman 8 hours ago||
Routine service and maintenance doesn't require net connectivity to schedule.
ssl-3 3 hours ago|||
Not all issues are routine.

So we schedule service, and then we throw away all the food anyway because the problem cannot be addressed remotely.

SoftTalker 7 hours ago|||
Agreed. I was just addressing that it's not exceedingly rare to need to get a tech out on site to address something. Should the manager be on top of this, checking temps on all the cases every day? Absolutely, but I can see the argument for a more automated system of monitors/alarms that can get a tech dispatched before the manager has even noticed the problem.
dfxm12 11 hours ago|||
To monitor when something like this happens...
bigbadfeline 10 hours ago|||
Wait until people living north of Chicago learn that their thermostats are remotely controlled, when it's -20F outside.
ivewonyoung 11 hours ago||
So you can get a notification when the milk expires.
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