Posted by 737max 5 hours ago
This is a clear step change, I'm genuinely amazed.
Its answers are to-the-point, logically structured, clearly written. Like a really well made mini essay on your question.
It also really likes to build little simulations / models that you can tweak the parameters on. Amazing to explore how different assumptions affect economic scenarios, for example.
It's also great at picking (sourced) illustrations.
I'll be using this for everything that isn't coding from now on.
why? is it not so good on that? or is there something better performance, or better price for same performance?
That said, I'm extremely impressed with Argon thus far. I take back everything bad I've ever said about their AI strategy. Argon is very good and very fast. It might be competitive at coding, but it's too early to say.
I've been trying it out via the API and the model has been a delight so far. Clear in the head, not RL-fried, distinct writing style, and big model smell. That said, the em-dash is back w/ this model.
That said, I would be so frustrated with Sundar Pichai if I was on the Google team. The botched rollout of this model seems to be entirely a matter of capacity, and Pichai has been more than happy to give it to anybody but his own team.
I know it's a matter of personal taste but it reminds me of a grad student that tries to sound smarter than he is by being dismissive and opaque.
Great model to architect and resolve eng. problems in a harness loop tho. Poor handoff.
Strange. I wonder why? Have you adjusted 'roles', added 'ask clarifying questions'? This is most peculiar.
> You gave me a long answer but it didn’t answer my question: can we safely remove $X
Way too many bullets -> way too many emojis -> way too many em dashes
So obviously, government documents, top publications from liberal arts scholars and STEM > Wikipedia > Reddit (and within, r/AskHistorians > r/all, etc.). The first group is the one most likely to (over)use correct / fancy typography.
I have a related pet theory: the telltale sign of AI writing is being too good for the context it's found in, in terms of vocabulary and style as well as structure.
What is jarring about this is precisely the quality - we associate certain styles with important (or self-important) venues, so it's uncanny to suddenly see random shitposts, copywriting spam, or regular chat replies look like work of NYT bestselling authors or legal scholars - it feels wrong in places we expect basic language, grug-brain reasoning, and lots of typos.
Also, what makes the above much more noticeable, is that AI systems don't have cross-session stylistic memory. From the POV of an LLM, that perfectly fitting, masterfully crafted starter is the first and only time it used it. From the user's POV, it's the tenth time they're seeing it in the span of an hour.
Doesn't change my point anyway - even if post-training, labs naturally want the LLM to come off as smart (well, except for Grok). Post-training is where they "untrained" em-dashes and such, due to complaints of users.
Em dashes ended up as one of the first victims of llm age
In other words, since the very start of computer era, the use of em dashes was always a signal.
The results are a bit disappointing given Googles scale and training data.
The results are on par with cheaper Chinese open source models to be frank. https://cliphou.se/benchmark/
If you just want good llm text, it’s great.
I think there was a lot of misplaced hate of the em-dash due to all the low-qualify AI slop people were trying to pass off as their own for a while.
At the same time, OpenAI had a disastrous dev day that led a lot of users to jump ship to Claude.
Couple weeks later, Gemini-4-argon is still unavailable on anything less than the ultra tier, which means there's no natural funnel to get ppl to pay for the more expensive ultra plan other than "trust us the model is good".
If Google had argon broadly available earlier this month they would have picked up a ton of new users.
Models move so fast now and Google is very cautious about releasing them.
What sucks, hard, is googles ability to deploy direct to devs and customers at scale when the deployment is not a longstanding Google project.
Case in point: I’m an ultra subscriber and see in my app right now an ad to try Gemini 4; meanwhile the only models I have available are 3.1 pro,3.6 flash, and 3.8 thinking.
Clicking the try gemini 4 link takes me to a demo prompt that loads 3.6 flash. Srsly
I won’t even start telling you what getting api key based access together was like a year ago.
Ofc I know this isn't your fault in person, but I really wish Google would get its shit together.
...As a long time tech enthusiast I should probably stop being so delusional. Heh (cries internally)
1: lol I know who cheers for a trillion dollar company but I'd rather not cheer for OpenAI
As a Google employee my defense is it's hard for a company this big to move fast, but I can understand how Google customers would be annoyed.
Then basic mistakes (inferring wrong information from the given text, hallucinations...). Gemini is okay for some absolute basics and the rest of the work goes to actual frontier models.
Narrating this as if it’s the game of thrones is a fun exercise, but it’s just becoming commonplace now that models jump ahead of each other on a weekly to Monthly basis.
This was part of the issue, as stated in their comment. We couldn't jump around to try it for the reason that is wasn't made available to, as you say, "all the power users".
Do you really think people in google are happy about how long it took to release this model?
We’re all running on Astra medium the whole week and loving it.
I’m curious what I missed.
$500/month for 40+ hours a week of Astra usage, with ultrafast mode available when you’re near the weekly reset has made our jobs so much easier. Our product has some sciencey bits as well, ands Astra kills it as a rubber duck in this area.
As a consumer whose 20x account got downgraded, I am a bit sad. I can’t justify $500 a month on personal AI spend. As an engineering manager, I could not be happier with OpenAI’s services. Also, Codex App Server is amazing.
Hey, account created 39 days ago. Did you really have to tag that on after all the other stuff? Could you make it any more obvious?
That said this thread is hilarious because it's just an open ai sales manual debating with an anthropic sales manual. It's funny, but it's not, because the truth is that you people are just shitting all over the commons. Someone needs to kick you out but that's not going to happen here.
Can you elaborate on this?
Reddit thread with 247 comments here: https://www.reddit.com/r/codex/comments/1wtgv3z/dev_day_l/
Aside from that I'm not sure what was "disastrous" - maybe the lack of a new model release to compete with the just-released Claude Opus 5.5?
- Dots. People don't understand it. Their presentation didn't explain it properly at all. Additionally, many people thought it's stupid, and that the cutesy mascots are dystopian.
- Voice mode didn't work in their presentation. The demo failed.
- 200$ plan goes 20x -> 10x usage. 500$ plan introduced, 25x usage. The contrast is stark.
- "Ultrafast": 8x pricing on subscription plan (6x API). That's 80$ input, 400$ output, 100$ cache write. Hello?! Additionally, since it generates 8x faster, it consumes your quota 8x faster. Per wall-clock minute, it's 64x more usage spend per minute of generating. People report that on the 500$ plan, their weekly usage is gone in 40-100 minutes.
- People believe gpt-6.1-sol was planned to be released as astra-minor, but OpenAI renamed it at the last possible time, because gpt-6-sol is a disaster (this I can get behind)
I mean, I heard rumors too that it would be ultra only, but that doesn't seem to be the case, unless you are specifically talking about antigravity?
Realistically, market adoption isn't going to be the result of terminally online people (like me, I confess) following things way too closely on social.
edit: just a few hours after this comment I got access to Gemini 4 on the Gemini app. Yayy! :)
https://blog.google/innovation-and-ai/models-and-research/ge...
Oh yeah. Completely forgot about that. Big headlines and big claims, but no one could actually use it and report on it.
Does seem like they don't quite grasp how the hype train operates. Or maybe they don't care as much.
noooooooo
Given FelonyBench, do we also have a FantasyBench?
Is there anybody in Google having a look at how bad and complicated their payment system is? In all the other AI providers you just sign in, pay, get a key, done. In other clouds like AWS, you add a card, pay little to verify the card the first time, monthly bill, done. In Google it looks like you have to fight them every time for the very thing they should make as easy as possible: opening your wallet.
- Try in Gemini
- Try in Google AI Studio
- Try in Google Antigravity
Will non users of Google products even know what these three things even are?
I have AI Pro, but AI Studio tells me I can "unlock" Argon by upgrading to Ultra.
Classic Google.
i live in French Polynesia, a French territory, i'm a Google AI subscriber and i can't use Google AI Studio or antigravity cli because i'm in a geo restricted area ...
It seems Google has no issue laying out cables across the Pacific Ocean from/to Tahiti, they don't have an issue selling their services and plans there but i can't use AI Studio or antigravity cli because of geo restrictions ...
For the lazy:
https://www.osnews.com/story/19921/Full-Text-an-Epic-Bill-Ga...
They now ask for your mobile number during signup. And it wouldn't let me register any more accounts with my number. So frustrating.
What you did isn’t wrong, but is unfortunately very similar to what real scammers do. The heuristics behind these anti-abuse efforts are always going to have false positives.
They made using it so hard/unclear that myself and every other dev I knew gave up.
It's clear that they still haven't done any organizational self-reflection.
I would also advise against buying Gemini if you have any other Google services, because you get banned across board if they don't like something. To use Google it's best to first migrate off of Google.
Otherwise great product, I really like and would recommend Gemini. The usage is also very generous, at least Flash models.
I recently had to verify my YouTube account with a phone number recently because it requires this in order to set a thumbnail.
Questions right off the bat:
1. Why do I need to verify to post a thumbnail that will take 1MB on their servers but not to post a video that will take 100MB on their servers and be public??
2. Why do I need to verify my phone number on YouTube when it's linked to my Google account which has a verified phone number and 2FA etc.?
In any case, it takes you to a CSS-less page that asks you to choose between getting an SMS or being called to get a code. I choose SMS and it doesn't work. It shows an error message with no description just "something went wrong". I try a few times and it keeps not working.
I then switch to the call, and guess what! I have tried "too many times" and will have to try again later. Call worked the next day, but geez, what a mess.
Ended up with Soniox instead, took minutes to get started.
They had gemini cli, what happened to that? Was fine
Couldn't you just say what the price will be after the introductory period and when it'll take effect? Do they have some SKILL.md for these blog posts that requires the most important information to always be buried ten levels deep and hidden behind a login page?
$2/million input and $10/million output today. $4/$20 after December 1st.
It's perhaps a face saving thing to pretend you'll charge the same. Let's see if it actually happens.
Is Elon Musk doing their pricing?
I think at this point comparing raw token pricing is often apples to oranges.
It’s still damned capable though, I’ve done a crazy amount of good work with 5.3 Flash.
It is price fixing, nothing else
+1. FWIW, I didn't even get far enough to wonder about the price.
The lead (and only) sentence states "Our next era of frontier intelligence, built to solve your hardest problems" a statement equally true of any new Google or competitor model, hence completely devoid of useful meaning. I then kept scrolling down... and down... and down, giving up after a half dozen screens of big images, huge videos and some customer stories. The first sentence of every text block was equally vague or meaningless so... tv;dr (Too vague, didn't read).
Even the Gemini sub-reddit is laughing: https://www.reddit.com/r/GeminiAI/comments/1x2dr47/the_lates...
It might not be as smart, though my employer gives me access to Claude, so I tried giving the same task to Opus 5.5. Both DS4.1 Flash and Opus5.5 produced nearly identical outputs.
After that, my company switched the entire engineering department to Azure hosted DeepSeek4.1 and costs were cut by 3/4. So far, no one has really noticed the change.
It was the case a year ago, but it's less clear cut nowadays, I've seen non-tech people using claude on their phone in the train, and many tech people seem to have switched from Claude Code + Opus to Codex + Sol over the past few month.
- Natively multi-modality
- Enormous context windows
- Reliably cheap prices
It's like they don't release a model until it passes the above checklist.
Most providers have some mixture of these three occasionally, but with Google, every model is consistent. This kind of consistency is really nice to have.
https://arena.ai/leaderboard/agent/chat/pareto
For almost same intelligence (+15.56%, +15.18%), drastic difference in cost/task ($3.51 vs $0.41)
For chat, yes. But switch to code on the same page, and the picture changes. OpenAI takes the lead.
Argon build: https://html.non.io/lcars-argon/
GPT 6.1 sol: https://html.non.io/lcars-gpt-6.1-sol/
Opus 5.5 (currently SOTA for this): https://html.non.io/lcars-opus-5.5/
Original designs: https://diffui.ai/app/canvas/5093e689-1e74-4f26-b632-2a4500f...
(Chrome, also incognito)
As soon as gpu acceleration is disabled, the webpage goes from 60fps across the three systems I tried to ~7-20fps when software rendering is forced.
I suspect if you go to chrome://gpu you'll find something different from what I have here: https://image.non.io/a47a1b03-1b87-4fd5-92a2-b39e62b1cfd9.we...
So that all being said, a normal website should work totally fine on low power mode, and this should definitely be a negative on the Opus implementation.
I would disagree with this based on two things:
1. the prompt, which explicitly states to render the planets in the background in 3js (thus the gpu implementation).
2. the purpose of this, which is a test of its ability to convert an image design into a html/js/css implementation that matches it as closely as possible. I've talked about this before when it's come up[†]. The purpose is to be a good test, not a good design or website.
For reference, here's the full prompt used:
> Create a web page implementation from the following instructions: https://diffui.ai/build/Futuristic_Interior_UI_build.md?auth... dont reference any other folders that have similar builds. Focus on the flowing SVGs. Animate elements that make sense to be animated. For the starships that have planets in the background, ask for high quality images with the windows as a transparent background, and recreate the planets behind them in 3js. It should be one single page application that I can just open the index.html file to view.
[†] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49997135
[‡] here's a copy of this since the diffui build instructions wont be accessible without an account: https://non.io/lcars-build-instructions
FWIW, I have literally the exact same configuration (M3 air, google chrome). Here's a recording on mine where I'm seeing 60fps: https://non.io/video/video-3587018401.mp4
Edit: The argon built site pins 1.3 cpu cores. The Sol 6.1 site uses 0.18 cores.
Here's a vid of both opus and argon side by side, which might be more viewable on mobile: https://x.com/pwnies/status/2110058987462988152
Here's low, medium, high. Even low is better than pelicans from any other lab: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
low cost 10.185 cents, medium was 11.098 cents, high was 17.166 cents.
The costs are similar because it used more output tokens than reasoning tokens for all three pelicans, even for high.
> If it's on HN and is a meme at this point, it will end up in the training set.
> It's kind of fun to imagine that there is an intern in every AI company furiously trying to get nice looking svg pelicans on bicycles.
Google listened and assigned a few interns, I guess, for the task
Figure of speech.
>Why not just generate svgs with any editing software?
How do you do that from the whiteboard/notebook?
Everyone says that until ms, apple, google, etc introduces this polished feature as part of their tablet imaging editing/document collaboration office suite. Then everyone can;t get enough of it.
> It's a small task whose result is an input to something else - ideal for a tool for LLM (or script)
Have you actually tried this? If it's a small task then why can't LLMs actually do it? Kind of like the pelican test. Every LLM can do a SVG pelican but most of the results are unusable in practice for production/productivity purposes.
Every LLm can extract some half-broken SVG hallucination of your jots, but I'm asking for an app that's polished and works accurately 99% of the time, which means a dedicated app/model tuned specifically for this task, and nobody makes this yet.
I don't feel like I'm a representative sample of general userbase, so I won't dispute this too hard. For me, it's rare but it does happen. Still, 90% of my mobile experience is "how is this so broken, why is it missing the obvious follow-up feature that completes a workflow, and why, again, am I not using a laptop for this?".
> If it's a small task then why can't LLMs actually do it?
What if they actually can?
This is exactly what Karpathy was talking about the other day[0]. If your only LLM experience is the default chat app in chat mode, then this doesn't make sense. If your experience includes using agentic harness like Claude Code/Cowork / Codex/ChatGPT Work, then it's obvious.
The LLM app in "chat mode" will just zero-shot you a pelican, or digitize your notes into SVG, and maybe improve on it a bit if you complain about the result. The same app[1] in "agentic mode" will digitize your notes, refine the SVG against the original image, reduce it to probable strokes based on high-frequency patterns in the photo and knowledge of how people write, OCR it, save both the text and SVG to your library, then extract parts you wanted and insert them into a document, typeset the rest of it, and print it on your printer - all in response to a single prompt.
LLMs in agentic mode are very good at stringing long and advanced workflows; today, if you give them shell access or computer use, they will use regular apps for you if that's the easiest way to accomplish the goal.
> Have you actually tried this?
Yes![2].
That's why I can confidently say: there is no limit to this pattern. LLMs can handle apps just fine; giving them tools just saves time and tokens.
Another example: I'm currently resurrecting a 30 year old game, and the other day I asked Claude to hack on a way to run it headlessly, so I can use my computer while it plays with it. It did, and then immediately leveraged it to just causally run several instances of the game in parallel, entirely in the background, whenever it needed to playtest something.
--
[0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50047422 - was on the frontpage two days ago.
[1] - Claude and ChatGPT now have both modes in their mobile, web and desktop apps. I personally use Claude Code a lot, but exclusively through these surfaces (I can't be arsed to deal with TUI at home anymore). IMO, these tools are already within reach of regular users - the users just didn't notice it yet.
[2] - Not with SVGs, but equivalent with voice recordings, and yes, Claude Code set up and is managing the whole local processing pipeline. Recordings go in, Markdown (or more advanced signal processing) comes out, and in itself, it's not a task, but merely a step.
> How many pelican riding bicycle SVGs were there before this test existed? What if the training data is being polluted with all these wonky results...
But Simon has demonstrated before that asking for any animal doing something silly will still get similar results from the same model.
Expect Google models to be benchmaxxed as much as possible, but don't expect commensurate performance on real-world tasks.
This is not true. It is needless negative hyperbole that IMHO doesn't belong on HN.
If what you say is true, then the next set of benchmarks will be written to illuminate the true reflection of real-world tasks. Then those get benchmaxxed so managers can show "numbers go up."
Repeat enough times, and you get materially and genuinely improved products.
The burden is on the press, outside researchers, and general tech industry to both write and care about the metrics that matter.
They look remarkably good, sure -- but not perfect.
I note that even these bikes are not actually rideable. For a bike to be stable, the front wheel axle needs to extend forward a little ahead of the fork - the fork must ”bend forwards”. This is what actually keeps the bike upright, not gyroscopic effects or some such. Given LLMs are generally good at basic maths, im surprised they get this wrong.
Maybe a bit less so in this case though. As per the announcements, the model was actually trained for this prompt, so was fed some training data. I can well imagine the data there was just not so good.
People drawing bikes, scroll down to see they having made renders of all the drawings. Hilarious
You can also ride a negative rake fork. They are less stable, yes, but a far cry from not actually rideable, cf https://www.instagram.com/yourforkisonbackwards/
https://www.walmart.com/ip/Huffy-26-inch-Rock-Creek-Men-s-Mo...
(apologies if I'm misunderstanding).
I'll also note that, using a piece of paper as a straight edge against my screen, there is a very slight forward curve on the low and a bit more on the high responses. Medium does appear to be perfectly straight.
You're nit-picking on a detail no one actually cares about.
Subtle highlights on the metal frame, sweat beads, jaunty little hat…it has style. At least compared to the rather literal ChatGPT outputs. https://static.simonwillison.net/static/2026/gpt-pelicans-gr...
Is the prompt context telling the models what their effort level is, and the ambient presence of that concept of ‘high effort’ in the context window is leaking through and affecting the portrayal?
https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen3.8-27B/blob/main/chat_templ...
xhigh: "Reasoning effort is set to xhigh. Please think carefully through the task, validate key assumptions, consider plausible alternatives, and prioritize correctness, consistency, and clarity in the final answer."
low: "Reasoning effort is set to low. Keep your thinking brief and focused, moving directly to the conclusion without unnecessary elaboration."
Argon: https://jonclegg.github.io/pacman-bakeoff/dev/#gemini-4-argo...
Opus 5.5 https://jonclegg.github.io/pacman-bakeoff/dev/#claude-opus-5...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelican#/media/File:Pelikan_Wa...
Also, that first tweet contains a commentary that, for me, explain a lot about the public misconception about how current AI works:
> wait, does this mean you guys are actively training svg generation? i was mostly amazed by it thinking the models doing better at it by itself due to becoming better at reasoning.
No, it's not better reasoning that drives current AI, it's better examples we have been giving them. Whole army of people generating content for the frontier labs.
Also, reasoning improving the out of distribution part, like computer use, tool use etc.
Another case where allowing oneself to anthropomorphise LLMs a little yields better intuitions.
People don't get more skilled by raw reasoning, either. They improve their skills with better textbooks (pre-training data), more practice exercises (RL data), and generally goofing around (self-play).
It's a simple manner of prompt...generate concept art with nanobanana, measure, llm creates svg with text, measure the distance between rasterized svg embedding to nanobanana art....do post-training RL on a 3 million such images and matching embeddings.
I swear this will be a canonical example of Goodhardt's Law in action.
You have to switch to a new benchmark that isn't so easy to run a verifiable rewards pipeline on...Perhaps a longer horizon task where it's easy to mess up midway.
Yes, Simon has made pelicans a benchmark and now models have grown very good at rendering them. Is there a reason to believe that this isn’t manifesting as useful skill in general in SVG generation?
It would perhaps be slightly interesting if the prompt was run 100 times for each model. I doubt the pelicans would look identical.
However, how the front fork rake affect stability is I believe a little complex. I doubt this old article is the last word on the subject, but it's a great read nonetheless, and note especially the ultra-stability of the reversed fork bike!
https://physicstoday.aip.org/features/from-the-archives-the-...
I've noticed that chatgpt is working harder. But still I prefer Claude, it just feels nicer to me.
As one point, the high pelican's arm is see-through/messed up.
They do look worlds better than previously, to be fair.
Here's 'Generate an SVG of an armadillo in fishnet tights jaywalking on Mars' for Gemini 4 Argon: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Some other models for comparison: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer?url=ht...
Modern models can make nearly photorealistic games in threejs. So why do they struggle with these pelicans?
However, result quality really drops off once you get out of the top 5 or so.
(NSFW note: all buttocks are covered by fairly conservative bikini bottoms and show no genitals, bulges, etc.)
The test is always going to be hard though, because it's an absurd image to ask for.
UPDATE: I like this theory about using an agentic harness that can render and iterate better: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50073879#50074395
this is a really profound insight
https://www.gianlucagimini.it/portfolio-item/velocipedia/
HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=17699017
https://www.wired.com/2016/04/can-draw-bikes-memory-definite...
The pretty 3d stuff you see are agents controlling a Blender MCP in a loop where they look at the scene, think, adjust the scene, repeat.
(As I said in a separate comment above, results are all bikini-clad and not revealing. However, whether it is NSFW is up to you/your work policies.)
Are you sure they're not fetching free asset packs for that?
wasn't the whole point of pelicans is that labs *wouldn't* train for that?
so now the benchmark is ruined
Give me reverse engineering bench and agentic coding.
Leave making visuals to humans who actually have aesthetic sense unlike whatever made this mess
<https://tools.simonwillison.net/svg-render#%3Csvg%20font-fam...> <https://tools.simonwillison.net/svg-render#%3Csvg%20font-fam...>
- I was having trouble embedding the SVGs as links, and ChatGPT recommended Simon Willison's SVG Renderer as a workaround.
Just my 2 cents on the pelicans benchmark: I think it might help if you were a bit more explicit about not taking this one benchmark too seriously. I know you say that at times, but at other times (such as the comment I'm replying to) you elide it which can read as a seriousness about the benchmark.
Medium and high are fixies apparently, (or they have a worm gear, although the hub doesn't look big enough for that), since neither has a derailleur. That would also explain the lack of brakes at least.
Low is still obviously failing the "test". It's pedals are not actually attached to the bike either.
Medium has a handlebar that goes through the pelican's beak. So I'd say also failing.
For the high, the only nitpick would be that the bell isn't quite on the handlebars and the stripes on his scarf don't line up correctly.
Very fast.
Makes mistakes. Corrects the mistakes quickly with direction.
Google Argon 4: https://share.gemini.google/T9r6tr2dDaTE
I didn't have time to make it into a full blog post yet. Here is a previous one.
https://generative-ai.review/2026/07/kimi-k3-rush-test-vs-cl...
Astra 5.6 is significantly better than Google Argon 4 and a lot better than Claude Fable
https://generative-ai.review/2026/10/catchup-openai-astra-5-...
Like a working scroll on a webpage.
God damn this is impossible to use of safari mobile.
Argon is trying to solve the "hard" problems like those.
