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Posted by xbmcuser 8 hours ago

Solar surpasses nuclear power globally for first time(www.pv-magazine.com)
423 points | 247 commentspage 2
eigenspace 3 hours ago|
I find it continually strange how much more attention solar gets than wind.

Wind power has been undergoing a very similar rapid fall in cost, and rapid rise in installations, and is a fantastic natural resource (and also one that complements solar almost perfectly!), but it always feels like solar gets 10x the attention and conversation that wind gets.

pfdietz 31 minutes ago||
> I find it continually strange how much more attention solar gets than wind.

It's because solar gets cheaper faster than wind does. The experience rate is higher.

lisplist 3 hours ago||
My interest is mostly getting solar installed at home, something I can feasibly do. I don't think my city allows for residential wind turbine installs.
dividefuel 3 hours ago|||
Dumb question: is there a limit to how much energy we can capture? I'm imagining a wind gust blowing east to west across a city filled wind turbines. By the time the gust reaches the west end of the city, has most of its energy been captured or otherwise dissipated?

Contrasting that with solar, where any surface area receiving direct sunlight doesn't prevent other adjacent areas from also capturing solar.

eigenspace 3 hours ago||
Wind power scales with the turbine area squared, and the wind velocity cubed. That means there's massive incentive to make bigger and taller turbines (windspeeds are higher the further away from the ground you are).

For that reason, there is very little reason to build small wind turbines, even if there wasn't a down-stream loss of power from putting too many close together.

eigenspace 3 hours ago|||
So there's the hobbyist side of it, but I guess it's not totally clear why that matters to the people talking about the world's power mix.

But as I write that, I guess it becomes more clear to me that a personal interest in installing the technology makes one pay more attention to it elsewhere, and promote more conversations about it that get others involved.

layer8 6 hours ago||
80% of global energy consumption is still fossil fuels (oil/coal/gas), however.
cbmuser 24 minutes ago||
Which perfectly proves that 90% of the comments in this thread have no clue about energy and think that running a grid on solar and wind only plus some batteries is a solved problem.
tonfa 6 hours ago|||
Yes but primary energy isn't a good metric. There's 40-60% loss when converting fossil fuel to final energy being consumed.
pzo 2 hours ago|||
A lot of energy is used for heating, heating water is more efficient with fossil fuel than with electricity - because for electricity you have transmission loss.
xbmcuser 2 hours ago||
That used to be the case, but with the efficient heat pumps that have come out in the last few years, that is no longer true. Since you’re using electricity to move heat rather than produce it, it’s two to three times more efficient than burning fossil fuels for heating.
layer8 6 hours ago|||
That’s fair, but factoring the energy loss in, it still remains the clearly larger share.
crote 5 hours ago|||
Does it, though? Assuming 80% of energy use is fossil and fossil has a 50% loss, if all that fossil were to transition to ~100% efficient electricity[0] we'd already be at 33% of our renewable electricity needs. That's quite a bit more than the 20% the "80% fossil" seems to suggest!

"One-third done" sounds an awful lot like we're going to start seeing optimistic "we'll be halfway there at the end of the decade" headlines soon...

[0]: Things like the grid and car batteries don't operate at 100% but closer to 95%, but things like heat pumps operate at 300% efficiency, so I reckon that'll more-or-less cancel out for back-of-the-napkin math.

tonfa 4 hours ago|||
Yes we're not done yet, but renewable only started gaining share again around 2010, and how quickly solar/battery is being deployed is really impressive.
esarbe 6 hours ago||
That's primary energy, of which about half is wasted as heat. Electrification will bring this down by a lot.
cbmuser 22 minutes ago|||
Not going to happen in the foreseeable future. Fossil fuels did not change there relative share the past 30 years.
pzo 2 hours ago|||
And big usage of energy is actually heating home so heating water
smartmic 8 hours ago||
That’s good. I wonder how much longer it will take for countries to make their energy supply dependent on fossil fuels or nuclear power, thereby becoming pawns of unpredictable or hostile regimes and being helplessly at the mercy of geopolitics. It’s so baffling that many countries, even those with plenty of sun and wind, still prefer to rely on fossil fuels rather than make life a little easier for future generations.

And no, there will be better solutions for base load as well. Battery storage, for example. Sure, it’s a transformation, but those who refuse to think for the future can see the consequences of stubbornness and backward-looking attitudes today.

Aboutplants 7 hours ago||
The answer is batteries (why it hasn’t seen the adoption and also what is about to enable it)
gcheong 6 hours ago|||
The geopolitics don't go away because the resources needed to switch to renewables aren't evenly distributed geographically:

https://www.statista.com/chart/33754/countries-with-the-larg...

https://www.techpolicy.press/us-critical-mineral-aggression-...

Battery storage is only a solution if you can actually generate a surplus of energy that can be stored, which is not a given.

We absolutely need to move off of fossil fuels but thinking that renewables are the only solution seems very short-sighted to me.

crote 5 hours ago||
Contrary to their name, "rare earth metals" aren't actually rare, and for a lot of the renewables stack they aren't strictly necessary.

Take lithium batteries, for example. They were attractive for early BEVs because the consumer electronics market already developed an industry for them, and they were attractive for early grid storage because the BEVs scaled that industry up. But that doesn't mean you have to use lithium for grid storage, and when push comes to shove we could also use sodium-ion batteries, or iron redox flow batteries.

If your country no longer has access to iron and salt, I reckon you have bigger things to worry about.

gcheong 13 minutes ago||
Didn’t say they were rare I said they weren’t distributed equally which ends up creating geopolitical tensions and while newer chemistries might change the equation that does seem like what is going to happen in the short term.
toomuchtodo 8 hours ago|||
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y94yV7WUwGY is a short lecture by someone from BloombergNEF that speaks to some of your questions.
drysine 6 hours ago|||
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Gareth321 6 hours ago||
Renewable energy is really expensive. [About 4x more expensive than nuclear, and 14x more expensive than gas.](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=4028640) People mistakenly think that because wind and sun are free, renewable energy generation is cheap.
defrost 6 hours ago|||
Your four year old paper shows wind+solar costs as on par with nuclear in the final (LFSCOE95) model in the ERCOT market before factoring in dropping battery farm costs.

Other papers exist with a different opinion (eg: Australia's more recent CSIRO energy report finds nuclear not providing bang for the buck in the Australian market)

Further, despite claiming Level Full System Costs, there's no factoring in for externalities - eg: climate costs of dragging out fossil fuels while waiting for nuclear to come online, political costs of being steadily reliant on outside countries for fuel and supply (cost of gas to non gas nations, etc).

There are other issues - it's a paper with an opinion - not the foundational rock you want to base strong assertions on, as you did.

Gareth321 5 hours ago||
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jdlshore 5 hours ago|||
Your data is way out of date. Renewables, particularly solar+battery, are incredibly attractive from an economic perspective. That’s why the build-out has accelerated so much. It’s not government hippies (I wish—have you seen the state of world politics lately?), it’s cold hard capitalism.
Gareth321 4 hours ago||
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salynchnew 3 hours ago||
Give me balcony solar (in the U.S.) or give me death![1]

[1] Really, climate change risks already a massive liability in so many places (forst fire-caused particulate air pollution, etc.). We need far more solar and battery capacity to bend the curve.

FloatArtifact 6 hours ago||
There needs to be more general understanding of energy density and scalability, which is why I don't think we'll get away from fossil fuels without nuclear or fusion.
chickenbig 4 hours ago||
Of course, the officially titled World Nuclear Industry Status Report is actually produced by anti nuclear activist Mycle Schneider (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycle_Schneider).
ninalanyon 2 hours ago|
What are you implying?
cbmuser 21 minutes ago||
Mycle Schneider does not even have an academic title. He is simply an anti-nuclear activist.
yoochan 3 hours ago||
I saw numbers in GW where I was expecting numbers in GWh ? How does the amount of energy produced compare ? "In 2025, nuclear plants generated 2,703 TWh", how about solar and wind ?
tdhz77 6 hours ago||
Is this the year of the Linux desktop ?
president_zippy 6 hours ago|
I've been forced to use Ubuntu 22.04 and 24.04 at my job for the past 4 years, and the longer I use it, the more it makes me wish I was using OpenBSD w/ xfce.
tialaramex 8 hours ago||
Because the damp rock we live on happens to have humans living mostly on the North half rather than split 50:50, there's a noticeable shift in solar generation over seasons.

So e.g. a few months ago in July because it's Summer in the North, solar production peaked significantly higher than the less fluctuating Nuclear but come January it may well produce less globally than Nuclear.

The cited publication is based on Ember's data, which was published in this case a few months ago. It doesn't cite anybody else, so if you're interested in the data and its sources you should look at Ember themselves. This particular publisher (pv magazine) cares about solar specifically, but the nuclear industry publication actually also talks about wind.

Globally wind is much less seasonal (not entirely non-seasonal, but much less so) and it's also generally only sane to build wind farms where there's plenty of wind because they're relatively expensive whereas solar panels are cheap. As a result there's a smaller fluctuation maybe 5:4 between the windy and less windy seasons. However wind power is also growing much more slowly than solar.

You can wake up tomorrow, buy some panels and stick them on a roof, buy an inverter and next week you have solar electricity. Good luck going from "I want a wind turbine" to owning a working wind turbine in anywhere close to that time, even in the unlikely case that you own a hilltop or somewhere to put such a thing.

PaulDavisThe1st 7 hours ago|
> Good luck going from "I want a wind turbine" to owning a working wind turbine in anywhere close to that time, even in the unlikely case that you own a hilltop or somewhere to put such a thing.

We do own land that we could install a turbine on, which would be awesome to supplement our solar PV. But we live in New Mexico and when I asked an electrical inspector why there were so few smaller wind turbines here, he told me that there are few that can survive more than a couple of years of NM winds.

There's a reason the world's largest wind generating facility is about 60 miles SE of where I live, and they are not using turbines of a sort a typically home owner could contemplate.

bdauvergne 3 hours ago|
What kind of civilization is possible on intermittent power ? All western civilization is built on 24/24 7/7 available energy (from direct use of petroleum or electricity). I think we should give two numbers: the raw TWh output and the stable TW output and see where they are coming from. Africa and Asia are rapidly being electrified, but if it does not create an industrial boom outside China by guaranteed available energy it's just more people having intermittent AC and not real development.
pfdietz 28 minutes ago||
A civilization that uses storage to level that intermittency. It's perfectly possible to power industrial world civilization using only renewables, and it would be cheaper than trying to do it with fission (which would require breeder reactors, btw.)
cbmuser 18 minutes ago||
No, it’s not and you have no clue what you are talking about.

There is a reason even Germany is still heavily dependent on coal despite investing hundreds of billions into renewables

It simply does not work without dispatchable energy sources.

pfdietz 6 minutes ago||
Yes, it is possible. You need to penalize fossil fuels with CO2 charges, but that's needed to get a nuclear powered economy too.

Your argument about Germany is obviously BS, basically "it didn't happen yet therefore it can't happen". Solutions must apparently leap fully implemented into the world or else they are impossible, by your logic. Do you apply the same logic to nuclear, since no country gets the majority of its energy from nuclear (not even France)?

Storage can be dispatched, you know (and it's not just batteries.)

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