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Posted by goostavos 2 days ago

It's still ok to enjoy programming(chriskiehl.com)
403 points | 380 commentspage 5
xiaodai 1 hour ago|
i run an offline recreationaly programming club. the interest in it has never been higher. I also go to my local go club and interests in that spiked after AlphaGo's match with Lee Sedol so yeah. I think programming as an recreational activity will survive.

I mean, I loved Human Resource Machine but not so much 7 billion humans (as the programming got repetitive).

rewgs 2 hours ago||
I've been thinking about this a lot, as I'm sure we all have been.

3Brown1Blue recently posted an excellent video on how he's thinking about AI's impact on math, which of course is in a similar position as programming. One of the points he made was that machines' abilities to lift heavy things has no bearing on the value of exercise -- which is to say that, just because AI can now code/do math extremely well, that has no bearing on the positive effects (the "mental exercise") one gets from programming/doing math "the old way;" the same can be said about one's enjoyment.

The problem here, though, is that I used to get the enjoyment/"exercise"/upskilling/etc from the same 8 hours that paid for my life. Now, I have to squeeze that in _outside_ of those 8 hours. So AI has, very clearly and simply, reduced my downtime outside of work -- I literally have less time for non-programming hobbies and activities because of AI.

micromacrofoot 7 hours ago||
Yeah but I want to get paid for it.
sha201 5 hours ago||
It's becoming a hobby I guess
cute_boi 8 hours ago||
The problem is that AI is creating a race to the bottom. We are forced to use AI tools and burn tokens because leadership don't have a clue. And even if you're doing complex work, people will assume it's just a prompt...

I enjoy writing complex programs because I get appreciation for my work. I don't really care that much, but I'm sure we humans love being appreciated for what we do.

ur-whale 6 hours ago||
> It's still ok to enjoy programming

It is indeed, and full disclosure, I am 100% one of these folks.

Much like there are people that still forge full-scale two-handed swords in their garage.

Magnificent and fulfilling work, but with questionable economic value.

mrboatshoepants 5 hours ago||
I like getting stuff done, and AI lets me get more done, more quickly.
Apocryphon 8 hours ago||
NPM and Left-Pad: Have We Forgotten How to Program? (http://www.haneycodes.net/npm-left-pad-have-we-forgotten-how...)

1725 points|df07|11 years ago|854 comments

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11348798

Obviously entrusting an entity to do everything is different from using a dependency or library, but aren’t LLMs for work just a natural progression of this? Programming is about automation. Programmers have been automating and outsourcing their work since the concept of SDKs were invented. Or even since high-level languages were invented. The industry was already doing this, and doing it excessively, long before Claude. left-pad happened a decade ago and we’ve learned nothing.

IshKebab 7 hours ago|
Not really. Even with left-pad there was still some skilled work required. At this point my wife could vibe code an app or a website and it would be actually quite good - not the slop of 6 months ago.
Apocryphon 5 hours ago|||
Writing left-pad isn't the issue, the issue is that projects were importing a one-liner package and blindly using it, which requires no skill.

> Second, even if the package’s logic is correct, I can’t help but be amazed by the fact that developers are taking on dependencies for single line functions that they should be able to write with their eyes closed. In my opinion, if you cannot write a left-pad, is-positive-integer, or isArray function in 5 minutes flat (including the time you spend Googling), then you don’t actually know how to code. Hell, any of these would make a great code screening interview question to determine whether or not a candidate can code.

> Finally, stringing APIs together and calling it programming doesn’t make it programming. It’s some crazy form of dependency hacking that involves the cloud, over-engineering things, and complexity far beyond what’s actually needed.

Obviously LLMs make the situation even more dire, but I think people are overlooking that the industry was automating itself out of programming as a craft even before them. It's just the automation involved reuse of the work of other humans.

IshKebab 5 hours ago||
Sorry but there's no way that assembling libraries - even stupid ones like left-pad (which I'll note was an extreme example) - is in no way comparable to just saying "Claude make this program for me", which is pretty much where we are now. My wife can do the latter but not the former.

This isn't just "a bit more automation". It's "now we don't need lift operators".

keithnz 5 hours ago||
yes, but it's a hobby now. If you enjoy historical re-enactment of old software development practices, feel free!
esafak 8 hours ago|
So you're staying you can still program as a hobby. Well, of course. You can also write poetry and do other things you won't get paid for. People are complaining that they don't get to enjoy what they do for work any more.
0xfffafaCrash 8 hours ago||
Yes. There is also reason to believe that the ecosystem is on the path to migrating to one where human developers are an afterthought at best. In the current phase we have lots of more stuff in markdown and other human readable formats and programming languages for sure but there’s little reason to believe that they will stay that way as humans get further from the code in general and the primary consumers and producers are AI. It would be strange if it remains optimized for English-speaking humans for very long.

Open source development has become buried in an avalanche of AI generated code as well so the character of a lot of hobby programming in that domain has changed drastically.

jjulius 5 hours ago|||
>People are complaining that they don't get to enjoy what they do for work any more.

And that's OK.

CodingJeebus 8 hours ago|||
I remember reading this New Yorker piece[0] when it came out 8 years ago about how the proliferation of electronic health records software in hospitals was driving older doctors towards retirement, and it made me ponder how many people hated using the software I've built professionally over the course of my career.

Change comes to every profession, and it's never universally helpful or productive. I'm very much in the middle of the road on the AI booster/skeptic continuum, but I know it's not going away.

And getting to "enjoy" the work was always just a perk. Where in labor law in any country throughout history guarantees enjoyment of the work? Surprisingly few people throughout history have been able to say they enjoyed their work. It's always been a trade of time for money, everything else is table stakes. I'm finding new ways to find enjoyment both in the job and out of it, and if that time-for-money trade stops being worth it, I'll figure out something else.

0: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/11/12/why-doctors-ha...

0c3ca83 7 hours ago|||
Probably most of them. Software has been very bad for a very long time. AI lets us flood people with trash a lost faster. In the past, I'd have said the software industry was producing mixed benefits, some improvements and some regressions, but on the whole probably a net positive.

Probably in 2015 or so, I think it started shifting towards a net negative -- and now, it's gone deeply and starkly into making the world a worse place.

SoftTalker 8 hours ago||||
I always wondered why since the introduction of EHR systems do I have to fill out 5+ pages of personal information and medical history every time I visit a doctor, as if they have absolutely no records about me at all?
sashank_1509 7 hours ago|||
Interesting article. Another solution would be to try to reverse this trend, even the doctor in the article isn’t sure if things actually got better functionally by the end of it.

How would you reverse this trend, I dont know, but AI basically puts us in the same boat as the doctors in that article.

Apocryphon 8 hours ago|||
Given the amount of complaints and generally downtrending tone on HN over the past decade and a half, did people really enjoy programming for work? It feels like the vicissitudes of the market, from the “move fast and break stuff and technical debt be damned” era of ZIRP, to “move even faster because now companies have to show profit and we are post-ZIRP cracked 100x engineers” just led to a lot of sloppy inelegant code, features and products built that never shipped, and unending meetings about half-baked business requirements. And a lot of the programming just ended up writing API glue code.

If you’re a The Art of Computer Programming-reading, code golf-competing, blogging neat elegant hacks kind of programmer, were you really getting that experience coding at work?

kentm 7 hours ago|||
Work always comes with bullshit. Its the nature of the thing. I don't think anyone was really getting code golf-style experiences at work, but they likely had enough positives that they outweighed the negatives, which resulted in net "enjoying" work. For a lot of people, AI removed a lot of the positives and left a lot of negatives, and some are still coping with that in one way or another.
parpfish 8 hours ago|||
if you're code-golfing on a prod repo, i do not want you as my coworker. please add comments. make things readable.
fugalfervor 8 hours ago||
It's almost as if this problem was forseeable.
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