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Posted by tosh 5 hours ago

Someone behind the software(karrisaarinen.com)
246 points | 98 comments
jwr 2 hours ago|
As a SaaS author, I couldn't agree more. That's how I see my work: the value is not in the code (AI can code better than me at this point), nor even in the software architecture (AI is just getting to the point where it will get better than me). It's in deciding what to build and what not to build, defining the overall character and vision of the product, looking at each screen and thinking "how does this help my customer do their job".

This, unfortunately, takes time, as one has to restart many times because of ideas that turned out not to be as great as one had initially thought. And it results in software that is called "opinionated", and often does not follow what the "industry" does.

teacpde 53 minutes ago||
If AI can write better code and design better architecture, why can’t it make better product decisions? I don’t see how they are fundamentally different
reilly3000 13 minutes ago|||
LLMs are disembodied-the products are ultimately by and for bodies on different ends of a transaction. The loop between llm and body is primitive today. Therefore products need someone who can speak in body and translate for AI.

Also, where are the AI-operated startups?? Why has nobody’s openclaw biz gone multinational by now?

dataviz1000 42 minutes ago||||
Products that people use require the developer to imagine they are the person using this. Those of us who develop user interfaces whether visual dashboards or automations driven by voice agents call it "empathy for the user."

AI is not capable of empathy.

AI is not capable of having good taste.

ctoth 38 minutes ago||
So to clarify it can imagine its way through writing massive gnarly page-long regexps or imagine how a complex API works and what will happen if it makes a given call or imagine just by reading disassembled code precisely how a binary works, but it will never be able to imagine how a human might feel about a user experience?

I have an experiment to offer. Find a really, really great example of something poorly-designed, too busy or whatever other metric you want to use as your "poorly-designed" thing, then ask Claude what's wrong with it and how it should be improved?

Individuum 7 minutes ago||
Ok and then in your thought experiment, after Claude builds its solution, what are the chances you can prompt it to be improved even more? Or has Claude reached perfection?
Individuum 44 minutes ago||||
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nullsanity 49 minutes ago|||
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vips7L 54 minutes ago|||
There’s still inherent value in people that can write code better and make architecture better than LLMs; even if you can’t.
hollowturtle 20 minutes ago|||
> the value is not in the code (AI can code better than me at this point), nor even in the software architecture (AI is just getting to the point where it will get better than me)

The lies of this decade. Hopefully we will heal sooner than later

pixelready 1 hour ago|||
Assuming high-quality models are around for the foreseeable future, and at this point I’m convinced that they will be. I think we’re moving into an era where breadth and hybridization of skill sets will become more valuable than pure technical depth. We’ll need more “wide T” shaped people that can exercise good UX, product, and architectural judgement and fewer “long T” shaped technical purists.

This puts large orgs at a disadvantage because they are built to coordinate work across a collection of narrowly scoped roles and keep people in their lane, so they aren’t built to hire for and leverage broad skillsets.

hollowturtle 18 minutes ago||
> fewer “long T” shaped technical purists

Then we will soon forget how our airplanes works

skydhash 56 minutes ago|||
> the value is not in the code (AI can code better than me at this point), nor even in the software architecture (AI is just getting to the point where it will get better than me). It's in deciding what to build and what not to build, defining the overall character and vision of the product,

Defining what to build in enough details is how you get the business logic nailed down (aka essential complexity, aka the domain in DDD). Code is just formal writing and architecture is there for maintenance (a program can be in a single file).

Sure there are accidental complexity like the intricacies of the tech, but those are actually explained very well in the docs.

throwaway27448 1 hour ago||
> it's in deciding what to build and what not to build

Unfortunately, humanity seems like a race destined to kill itself. People are more interested in how much they hate their neighbor or feel excited about an advertisement than anything meaningful. such a society has no basis for stable governance.

nullsanity 8 minutes ago||
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allenu 2 hours ago||
Something I've been thinking about a lot is that ultimately AI does not have values, intent, and taste. Even with humans, each of us has different values, intent, and taste, although we do share many of these things. As a living human being, you have biological or cultural desires and particular goals that you want to accomplish while you're alive on this earth.

When you're creating art or even a product, what you create is a result of your particular values and particular tastes and those drive some sort of purpose for whatever it is you're creating. What you're building is, generally, made for the consumption or use by another person (even if indirectly), and we mostly have empathy and want those people to have a good experience with whatever we're creating. We think about our audience and weigh their particular needs.

When you use good software, you can sense the intent in what was made. The person (or team) combined their particular point of view with that of the goals of the user. At this point, I don't think agentic coding is going to give you that, at least not fully. It might get most of the shared values and common things right as a result of its training data, but a human still needs to edit the output or steer it on a good path that only they can see and which is part of a larger vision. For simpler needs, taste and values matter less, but for more complex things, it makes a difference, in my opinion.

0c3ca83 2 hours ago||
Taste is essentially a set of heuristics for what has worked for you and the people you learned from, and how the details of your current situation feed into it. You could argue that AI has almost nothing but taste.

It may not be your taste, but it certainly has taste, and its taste will only get better with more training. Yours, if you use it, will atrophy, as you reduce contact with the details of your problems.

Agentic coding is a replacement for your agency.

allenu 2 hours ago|||
Good point. What I'm thinking is probably more like individual taste. An AI trained is kind of a collection of different tastes. What would be interesting is to see is if a "collective" taste that would yield good products on its own. Design by committee often creates things that have conflicting points of view. Can a trained AI do better than design by committee? It's obviously not a committee and not an individual (at least in the human sense). Is there something inherent in following general principles that makes it difficult to have a specific point of view in the creation of a product? My thinking is it's probably possible to train AI to have, say, an "Apple taste" and make good Apple-like products but that taste might not be suitable for particular products or needs. A "Linux taste" might be better for some things, but not for others, and so on. If we did get to that point, then there'd still be a need for a choice to be made about what particular "taste hat" to put on, and likely an AI can be trained to do even that. Definitely an interesting thing to ponder!
foodevl 2 hours ago||
I feel that AI does have individual taste (and even "personality"), but it's the same monotonous individual taste across all instances of the same trained AI. The sheer scale of its repetition turns it into a hated trope: like how we can immediately identify slop writing, diagrams, websites, etc.

I'm sure we've all met someone who has a unique speaking style and might repeat phrases or words unusually often, but that still doesn't bug us as much as "the honest truth.." or "load-bearing.."

majormajor 1 hour ago|||
I'm not convinced that "more training" is a silver bullet here because "for you and the people you learned from" is a subset—potentially a tiny one—of the world of potential training data.

Even with newer model generations larger efforts still seem to drift back towards "default choices" vs "steered specific aims."

In many areas, "good" taste is not particularly good anymore when it's everything's default style.

The edge then becomes finding the niches that (a) can be better served w/ non-defaults and (b) have economic characteristics that make it worth catering towards those.

I think the days of one-size-fits-all huge-scale-and-ROI SaaS swiss army knives are quite numbered, but I think the replacement world could be a much more vibrant ecosystem with a much more varied set of players.

pianopatrick 2 hours ago|||
You can add values to your AGENTS.md and that will affect how the AI works. For instance you can say stuff like "on this project our top value is that the code front end should be as fast as possible" and you'll get different results than if you say "on this project our top value is that the front end should be as simple as possible"
willy_k 1 hour ago|||
> but a human still needs to edit the output or steer it on a good path that only they can see and which is part of a larger vision.

I don’t see how this is any different. The input comes in a different section of context and potentially before rather than after generation, but that doesn’t change that human taste is needed.

ORDINAND_PIZZA 1 hour ago||||
i don’t think they’re the same kind of value. AI wants to solve your problem, it doesn’t care about you (or your users). it doesn’t know what love or loss feels like. you can try to explain that to it all day, it just doesn’t care like a human can. it doesn’t know why, it doesn’t care why.
AlienRobot 1 hour ago|||
I wrote in my AGENTS.md "do not use chained ternary operators." I'm still waiting for it to work.
userbinator 53 minutes ago|||
I would actually prefer chained ternaries over more verbose if/else expressions with duplicated LHS, so this does go back to the argument about "taste".
AlienRobot 20 minutes ago||
This is one of the things I like about Rust. You can have both.

    let foo = {
        if bar {
            1
        } else if baz {
            2
        } else {
            3
        }
    };
Unfortunately not all languages are Rust.
userbinator 43 seconds ago||
That isn't more concise than

   foo = bar ? 1
             : baz ? 2
                   : 3;
pianopatrick 1 hour ago|||
You're better off using linting for something specific like that.
louiskottmann 26 minutes ago|||
Taste only matter insofar you work is shared.

AI lets people get personalized software for "free" as derivative of existing work. Think adobe suite but with the 5% that an individual needs.

Then taste loses value as everyone has their own software.

That's where I am in that train of thought at least. Pretty grim I know.

rectang 2 hours ago|||
> ultimately AI does not have values, intent, and taste

I sometimes think, "what art would a rogue AI consciousness create to satiate its own artistic impulses?"

If the target audience was fellow rogue AI entities, I don't think there's any guarantee that such art would be compelling to humans, or even comprehensible.

And if its a human directing the AI so that the output is compelling to humans, then there's a human in the loop, whose "values, intent, and taste" matter.

shevy-java 2 hours ago||
> ultimately AI does not have values, intent, and taste

How do you know that? AI is also software. Who controls that software?

Plus, AI picking up data from real human means they will also incure bias aka "taste".

jakub_g 2 hours ago||
> it's lot easier to add new capabilities, than rethink existing capabilities. So each product becomes a collection of abilities, without actually having unified point of view.

This is a a very good and succinct summarization.

What I'm also observing recently also is that pretty much every product tries to expand to do things that completely different products used to do, and become a mega-product-for-everything. It's like a Zawinski's Law on steroids.

devin 1 hour ago|
In some ways it feels like exactly what you'd do if you wanted to tank your product over the coming years. I look back at the last 20 years or so, and what I see over and over is that one player in a space gets huge, keeps adding features, loses sight of what makes them a good market fit, and then 10 small upstarts swoop in to bring back the opinionated or simple view again. One or two win, and then eventually they repeat the same mistake.

I'm not trying to buy a labyrinth.

ajrouvoet 5 hours ago||
I enjoyed the introduction. I just picked up “The mind of the Maker” by Sayers, which Fred Brooks cites in The Mythical Man Month: “ Dorothy Sayers, in her excellent book, The Mind of the Maker, divides creative activity into three stages: the idea, the implementation, and the interaction. A book, then, or a computer, or a program comes into existence first as an ideal construct, built outside time and space, but complete in the mind of the author.” He goes on to say how the user meets the mind of the maker in the interaction: “The creation is complete when someone reads the book, uses the computer, or runs the program, thereby interacting with the mind of the maker.”
ranger_danger 4 hours ago|
> The creation is complete when someone reads the book, uses the computer, or runs the program, thereby interacting with the mind of the maker.

From the user's perspective, sure. Or when a particular product or version ships, then it's "done" as far as that version is concerned.

But from the maker's perspective... nothing will ever be complete. Even in the most meta sense possible.

Philosophy is fun :)

drybjed 2 hours ago|||
I work on a FLOSS data center management framework. 13 years ago, while at the office preparing to configure a new server, I had a flash of insight seeing the entire data center managed by such a tool. I saw it complete in my head. And since then, I'm still working towards that goal, that I'll never really reach.
ajrouvoet 4 hours ago|||
Right, I think Brooks means “the act of creation” here, rather than “the product of their creation”.
ranger_danger 4 hours ago||
That is an interesting way to look at it. Thanks!
simonbarker87 1 hour ago||
“Great software is opinionated” is something life been saying for years. I forget if I read it somewhere, heard it or came to the concept in my own thinking. All that is to say I don’t claim it’s a unique thought. And yet. I have to say it so often to the teams I’ve worked with or managed.

The opinions are those of the creators and that isn’t changing with AI.

dist-epoch 50 minutes ago|
You should watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E99FnoYqoII
kristianc 4 hours ago||
This age will be brilliant for sorting between those who care about "done" as in "technically complete" vs "done" as "creates enduring value for the person on the other end of it". AI largely only does the former.
vjvjvjvjghv 3 hours ago||
Using AI is really not different from hiring a bunch of people to do your project. You can tell them to do the minimum it takes to make it work or you can tell them or do it according to a long term vision you have and set high standards.

I agree that with AI it's very tempting to throw together a bunch of code without any thought of the longer term. But a lot of people are acting as if all programmers are artisans that produce well written code following the highest standards. That is just not true.

kristianc 2 hours ago||
The opposite actually. I suspect some programmers may come to realise what some of the people in product, design, marketing, who they suspected didn't do very much at all actually do. Finding programmers especially those who self-define as programmers with good product instincts is hard.
caaqil 49 minutes ago||
It's funny how AI has suddenly caused this great awakening in developers/mathematicians: that building stuff or working on purely technical stuff wasn't their actual value, but rather "taste", "understanding", "deciding what to or not to build" etc. It's like the parts of the field that were janitor-adjacent have suddenly being elevated and they now define the field. This transition happened so fast that it'd make your head spin if you're paying attention.
kristianc 28 minutes ago||
The problem with smart people is that they are able to construct ever more elaborate justifications for their own mental gymnastics.

That said, if you think developers have never enjoyed telling other people what to or not to build, I recommend checking out Stack Overflow.

skybrian 3 hours ago||
Based on my experience using AI to build software for myself, I think this mostly depends on what you ask for, not whether you use AI to implement it.
kristianc 3 hours ago||
In so far as "unless you specify precisely how the user interaction should work, you will get bad design" that's true, but that takes you far from the vision of "give AI a prompt, it will provide you with usable output with minimal human intervention".

Claude is better because it validates its work visually and seems to have a more intuitive sense of what makes an interface pleasant to use.

Codex manages to be both rigidly literal about the spec but also prone to adding unnecessary explanatory text, helper elements and visual clutter, oddly like a 1990s ERP system.

The role of product manager/product design is literally to turn whatever is being asked for into the optimal solution someone would actually want to use - it's this translation instinct that is missing from AI.

skybrian 1 hour ago||
For me, the visual design usually has problems the first time, and then I ask it to fix it. But the edits are still done by the AI.
dmitrijbelikov 1 hour ago||
> There seems to be more thought going into what the technology can do and what can be added than the form it should take.

Yes, it looks like people've choosen chat interface. They don't like filling forms.

> Individuals work with agents to produce changes independently, each operating a small software factory. Each change might make sense on its own, but together they start to resemble Frankenstein’s monster rather than a carefully shaped sculpture.

Before agents people do the same and our code bases not perfect.

Behind software not only creator, it's people who interested in and users. To make software creator needs a factory.

> Making software is getting easier.

Nope, cuz we have a lot of Frankensteins and chat interface

slopinthebag 1 hour ago|
forms were more of a technical constraint than anything else, it's not really an interaction modality that people gravitate to in the real world. im sure we can do a bit better than a chat interface but it's certainly a lot nicer and more human than most of the ways we can interact with computers. even i vastly prefer using natural language to drive my computer vs bash commands or most interfaces.
ah1508 42 minutes ago||
I agree, what's the point of writing 100x more LOC ? To deliver 100 more features ? With competent people, writing good code is not the bottleneck. Users don't ask for 100x more features, not even 2x more.

This week Porsche showed the mission-S concept, not even a screen in the car. Few features, dedicated to driving and I guess the user manual won't be a 500 pages book. In France Dacia Sandero (low cost car with only basic features) is the most sold in the country. I am not a fan of Steve Jobs and never owned an Apple but, correct me if I am wrong, he wanted a limit set of useful and perfect features for his products.

mik3y 3 hours ago||
I strongly agree with this take. And in particular, I've been wondering about this:

    > Individuals work with agents to produce changes independently, 
    > each operating a small software factory.
    >
    > [...] together they start to resemble Frankenstein’s monster
    > rather than a carefully shaped sculpture.
Do solo developers consequently have a bit of an advantage today when it comes to producing tasteful, opinionated software?
dack 3 hours ago|
yeah, i think so. it has always been the case that having a single mind build something from start to finish gives it a level of cohesion and uniqueness that is hard to do with one or more teams. it's just been really hard to build fast/good enough to actually ship. Now, that's completely doable with one person as long as they don't relinquish too many decisions to their AI agent.
majkinetor 4 hours ago|
Fantastic take. I always thought so, but couldn't express it so well. After reading the first paragraph, my heart flickered. This will be the only determining thing in the age of AI - someone who shapes the things based on its own intuition and taste, based on experience. I did that a lot in my IT carier leading a bunch of projects. I care about each of them, deeply.
caaqil 3 hours ago||
> Fantastic take.

I thought so too, makes you fuzzy and stuff inside. I wonder if this person behind X template is limited to software though? Curious if we can feel the aura of the sweatshop workers' "experiences, perspectives and hopes and dreams" while using our smartphones and gadgets. It's nice to think about, isn't it? AI couldn't replicate these intangible and difficult-to-quantify delights.

slingvora 3 hours ago||
AI can generate the code, but knowing what's worth building-and caring enough to get it right-is still the real skill.
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