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Posted by rbanffy 12 hours ago

Alternatives to animal testing are finally taking off(spectrum.ieee.org)
293 points | 91 commentspage 3
EchoWave22 7 hours ago|
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aaron695 10 hours ago||
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moralestapia 9 hours ago||
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Andr2Andr 8 hours ago|
Honestly I don’t get it. Why use a model of organs when you can use real organs in mice? If society had to choose: cure one extra disease variant and sacrifice a million mice in the process, or don’t. Shouldn’t the answer be obviously to use mice to save people lives? Honestly I don’t get it. How many lab rats is one person worth? Judging by some comments here, the answer would be they won’t trade mice lives for people lives?
delecti 8 hours ago||
That whole argument is predicated on the false assumption that mice are accurate enough human analogs that you even can cure human disease with their help. There's a good reason why it's such a common comment to point out how "in mice" was omitted from a headline that otherwise sounds like a medical breakthrough.
robwwilliams 6 hours ago|||
This is true, but perhaps not for the reason you have in mind. The “failures” are exaggerated by shoddy experimental design—mainly trying to generalize from a single fully inbred strain of mouse. Most murine research is based on this one strain: C57BL/6. This is like conducting a clinical study with one seriously inbred human subject multiple times. Very poor generality even to other types of mice, let alone to humans.
glenstein 4 hours ago|||
I think it's terribly unfortunate that the the "in mice" meme ever took off. If overhyping science based on preliminary tests is bad, so too is the blanket dismissal of that research that overcorrects in the wrong direction.

We share enough mechanisms across genetics, proteins and even our immune systems and that research is capable of asking meaningful questions that matter to us, and frequently has paid off. That's not to justify the ethics of it but I think it's beyond question that research iN mIcE has been an important research platform for things like immunology and lead to nobel prizes. Research writ large is a vast cumulative program of small iterations that are, individually, of provisional significance, and the categorical dismissal of it as not producing instant one-shot cures is at least as bad a misunderstanding of science as overhyped articles are.

ninalanyon 7 hours ago|||
Where do you draw the line and say that the arithmetic regarding suffering lab animals versus suffering humans does or doesn't add up?

The answer is far from obvious for many people and so obvious as to not need discussion for others. But the proportions of the population that fall into each group varies over time, from place to place, etc., as does the fraction of each group deciding for or against animal experimentation.

robwwilliams 6 hours ago||
Odd that in all the comments I have read so far no on has yet mentioned the many apparently faceless octopods, chickens, turkey, lambs, pigs, goats, and cows many of us consume each week and how they ended up in our mouths; the same mouths now discussing mouse welfare. Yes, odd.
ggorlen 7 hours ago|||
If the simulated organs perform better for research and avoid needless animal suffering, then it's a win/win. Right now it's a win/lose at best, possibly a lose/lose if you factor in reproducibility issues using animal organs for research.
ewbrenna 6 hours ago|||
First off, we should only be making this kind of trade-off (non-human lives for human lives) because it's absolutely necessary.

But even ignoring the ethics concerns, an accurate non-animal model is going to be vastly preferable to a real animal for a lot of stages of research. It's going to be easier to isolate variables, and a lot of research time and resources are taken up by animal models just being real animals.

stronglikedan 8 hours ago|||
> How many lab rats is one person worth?

Zero, if there are alternatives.

BurningFrog 7 hours ago|||
If the alternatives are as fast and cheap as lab rat testing, sure.

If not, the alternatives will cost human lives and suffering.

Teever 7 hours ago||
But animal testing could be a local maxima.

It could and likely is the case that we can make better alternatives to animal testing but we're held back by the kinds of arguments you just made and the inertia in the system so we don't move past a flawed but functional paradigm based around animal testing.

BurningFrog 6 hours ago||
You seem to suggest we should ban the best system we know in order to force the development of other systems?
diehunde 5 hours ago|||
Because not everyone in society is anthropocentric?
willio58 8 hours ago||
I think it’s important to realize, the mice are still dying as we speak for this purpose.

This is simply a step toward not needing to literally kill animals needlessly, if it succeeds. In the meantime, while stuff like this is really early on, we’re not going to stop animal testing.

ninalanyon 7 hours ago||
I think for most people who are against animal testing it is not the death of the animals that is the principal problem, it is the suffering they undergo while alive.