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Posted by xiaoyu2006 7 hours ago

The foolishness of "natural language programming" (1978)(www.cs.utexas.edu)
134 points | 81 commentspage 2
teleforce 3 hours ago|
>We would need all the intellect in the world to get the interface narrow enough to be usable,

It seems Dijkstra is describing potential calability of LLM model trained on published collective human knowledge enabled by the Internet

>and, in view of the history of mankind, it may not be overly pessimistic to guess that to do the job well enough would require again a few thousand years

Since the article was written in 1978 (about 50 years ago) and from the time the computing resources of CPU and RAM has increased exponentially until the LLM first appeared in 2020s, it seems the thousand of years prediction is merely several decades accelerated by the rapid advances of computer and communication systems technology spearheaded by companies like Nvidia.

wseqyrku 5 hours ago||
LLM interfaces on everything these days equate to touch screen on cars. It is definitely a useful tool, but generally speaking, that's not how you'd talk to your computer.
computerfriend 2 hours ago||
I am surprised that cs.utexas.edu uses a TLS certificate chain who's root is eMudhra's "emSign Root TLS CA - G1".
sam_lowry_ 1 hour ago|
US institutions are on eMudhra certificates through inCommon, yeah.

AFAIU this particular chain is not compromised.

hbarka 7 hours ago||
There’s em dashes in that 1978 article.
kevin_thibedeau 6 hours ago||
The typed original [1] has double hyphens that have been converted to dashes. His typewriter (Hermes Ambassador) was fixed pitch.

[1] https://www.cs.utexas.edu/~EWD/ewd06xx/EWD667.PDF

retrac 5 hours ago|||
Oh look at the last paragraph on the first page. Manually justified:

           In order to make machines significantly easier to use, it has been
    proposed (to try) to design machines that we could instruct in our native
    tongues.  This would, admittedly, make the machines much more complicated,
    but, it was argued, by letting the machine carry a larger share of the
    burden, life would become easier for us.  It sounds sensible provided you
    blame the obligation to use a formal symbolism as the source of your dif-
    ficulties.
How does one even achieve that with a manual typewriter?
kevin_thibedeau 4 hours ago||
It's coincidence in this case. Proportional typewriters were made but this wasn't one of them.
voxelghost 6 hours ago|||
Wasnt the original famously in written with Fountain pen? And the typed out version reproduced much later?
kevin_thibedeau 6 hours ago|||
He typed them until 1979 when his typewriter stopped working correctly.
voxelghost 4 hours ago||
Well - in this case the EWD in TFA - has a footer that says.

    transcribed by Tristram Brelstaff
    revised Fri, 19 Nov 2010
And so seem to be the case with most of the other EWDs I looked at as well.
jtbaker 6 hours ago||||
His namesake algo was also written entirely in his head in about 20 minutes at a coffee shop! https://harlepengren.com/dijkstras-algorithm-20-minutes/
galkk 2 hours ago||
I'm not native speaker but the TOC smells llm to me
DonHopkins 5 hours ago|||
Luca Cardelli created the handwritten typeface Dijkstra font in the late 1980s, to mimic the distinctive and precise handwriting of his colleague Edsger W. Dijkstra.

It shipped as a free PostScript font with NeWS:

https://www.donhopkins.com/home/NeWS/fonts/Dijkstra.ps

https://lucacardelli.name/indexartifacts.html

(You have to click on the "Fonts" tab, there's no direct link to it.)

Dijkstra [.ttf (2013 updated version by Reuben Thomas)] [.zip (old PC)] [.hqx (old Mac)] [Preview.pdf]

A beautiful handwriting font of unknown origin, first popularized by E.W.Dijkstra. Excellent for slides that appear to be carefully written, and for short, deep technical notes.

https://lucacardelli.name/Artifacts/Fonts/Pc/dijkstra.ttf

https://lucacardelli.name/Artifacts/Fonts/Pc/Dijkstra.zip

https://lucacardelli.name/Artifacts/Fonts/Mac/Dijkstra.sea.h...

https://lucacardelli.name/Artifacts/Fonts/Dijkstra.pdf

timcobb 7 hours ago|||
It can only mean one thing.
gnabgib 7 hours ago||
Get out the Binford 6000, it's Tool Time?
archargelod 6 hours ago|||
It's not just em dashes, it's 1: typewriter em dashes aka `--` and 2: usage of them in pairs, like parenthesis, that is completely different from how LLMs use them.
nickm12 5 hours ago|||
Proof that Djikstra was an AI model!
adamrezich 6 hours ago|||
Literally stop the presses
soulofmischief 6 hours ago||
Unreadable.
jeanpah 6 hours ago||
This article shows every now and then, and it's a must read. Indeed the natural language programming requires massive clusters of gpus just to make a half baked crud app
darrinm 2 hours ago||
App stores are approving an order of magnitude increase of new apps because people are now able to create them using natural language. End users are deriving great value from them. So this is settled?
batshit_beaver 2 hours ago|
The first sentence is easily verifiable, but the second carries the burden of proof.
likoya 5 hours ago||
I find c++ very unnatural, since it's a giant collection of small rules in the end more complex than assembler. I can't remember the entire sintaxis, zoo of function decorators, undefined behavior, intrinsics which are just labels over asm instructions, Code golf sintaxis...
chrisjj 54 minutes ago|
A student one told me he wad struggling to get his head around C++. I advised him to stop, since success would leave his head in an unusable shape.
ThrowawayR2 6 hours ago||
Dijkstra elegantly explains why AI systems are effective at mathematics and programming but much less effective when writing prose or other realms where what is good is nebulously defined:

> "The virtue of formal texts is that their manipulations, in order to be legitimate, need to satisfy only a few simple rules; they are, when you come to think of it, an amazingly effective tool for ruling out all sorts of nonsense that, when we use our native tongues, are almost impossible to avoid."

GarnetFloride 5 hours ago||
Fun fact: there are over 600 definitions of the word "run" and over 400 for "set". But yeah, English is really precise enough for programming.

How many times have we seen that there's been a spec for something and the programmers write something that is exactly like the spec said but was completely wrong?

Brian_K_White 5 hours ago|
Natural language as code has existed for thousands of years. Today we call it legalese.

It's excruciating to write, excruciating to read, and even legit geniuses with decades of hard won experience still leave room for essentially infinite interpretation. laws and contracts are all still swiss cheese and can be made to demand or prohibit whatever the party with the most money or other influence wants.

AgentMatt 2 hours ago|
If law was code, there would be no need for judges to make decisions. Instead, a "judge" would be someone making a mechanical derivation of the judgement given the situation and the law.

The law is rather a complex set of guidelines which need to leave some space for interpretation, so that additional relevant information for the situation at hand can affect the decision.

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