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Posted by pavel_lishin 15 hours ago

Today, we hacked what we'd set out to hack: the iPhone(blog.calif.io)
855 points | 557 comments
jeroenhd 14 hours ago|
Very cool demos, but now I'm interested to know: does enabling Lockdown mode help at all against these exploits? It'll theoretically protect against a lot of common attack vectors, but I'm curious about its real-life effectiveness.
sumam 14 hours ago||
yes for PDFs in iMessage where would be blocked, not sure in Signal though. No idea for 3rd one.
paxy 13 hours ago||
It only blocks auto loading. Clicking on the PDF will have the same effect.
sigmoid10 14 hours ago||
These are still 1-click, not zero click. So the best protection you can have is not opening unknown files that were sent to you. That being said, lockdown mode blocks all sorts of message attachments. From the videos it look like they are using pdfs in the messaging vector, which would get blocked too. So you would be safe-ish. But lockdown mode is so restrictive that it doesn't really make sense for most users. Or at least it doesn't make sense to buy a $1500 phone and then limit yourself to something you could have gotten for $50.
so-gala-massey 13 hours ago|||
You don’t know what lockdown is do you? I’ve had my phone in lockdown for a year. I can’t: collaborate on notes, and it does not automatically open links in chat. Other than that my experience is identical to non lockdown.
SomeUserName432 1 minute ago|||
My only gripe with lockdown mode is that my banking app loads icons from some source that ends up being blocked.

Quite annoying. I've tried to explain it to them, but to no avail.

gfto 39 minutes ago||||
I would still be using lockdown mode if the call notifications were send to my Apple Watch. Other than that lockdown mode was working pretty good for me.
sigmoid10 9 hours ago||||
I guess you don't browse any modern webpages? Otherwise I can't explain your perspective. You basically lose up to 95% of performance in anything remotely resembling a JS heavy web app. So it would run the same as on a cheap Android phone.
Gigachad 6 hours ago|||
My experience has been the iPhone chip is fast enough to still run pages just fine. Maybe those ones that load 300 adverts and relay out the page 5 times as they load won’t work but they hardly worked before anyway.
so-gala-massey 7 hours ago|||
Send me a webpage that you can’t view in lockdown. I haven’t had a single problem. I guess I’m just not really relevant in your eyes.
ShinyLeftPad 6 hours ago||
it's very rare that they break but there's some popular ones like booking.com

in my experience like maybe <5% of the web break

HelloUsername 11 hours ago||||
> had my phone in lockdown for a year. I can’t: collaborate on notes

That's your own mistake, because you can collaborate on Notes while your iPhone is in Lockdown

shepherdjerred 13 hours ago||||
You lose a lot: https://support.apple.com/en-us/105120
dilyevsky 13 hours ago|||
some sites don't work (you can explicitly whitelist them tho) but generally it's been fine. i would honestly prefer a phone that doesn't allow any comms to any non-contact list parties at this point.
throwaway219450 11 hours ago||
From what I can see in Apple docs, aside from web limitations it sounds great. Is there any real reason to not enable this? Like I would be deeply suspicious of a PDF sent via messages and no auto-connect to insecure WiFi is also common sense.
dilyevsky 11 hours ago||
been using it for years, haven't found a compelling reason not to yet
Barbing 2 hours ago||
The iPhone is so expensive, definitely want shared photo albums to be part of the ecosystem experience.

I’ll admit I thought you lost out on more by enabling.

prmoustache 11 hours ago||||
Doesn't seem like a lot according to the description and pretty much what I would set by default.
dataflow 8 hours ago||
> Web browsing: Certain complex web technologies are blocked, which might cause some websites to load more slowly or not operate correctly. In addition, web fonts might not be displayed, and images might be replaced with a missing image icon.

Images being replaced with a missing image icon doesn't seem like a lot according to the description, and it's what you would set by default?

Gigachad 6 hours ago||
“Might be” seems to carry a lot of weight. I’ve been running lockdown mode and I haven’t seen any images not load. Presumably it’s only images of a certain obscure kind.
josh2600 11 hours ago||||
Yeah what I want is a configurable version of lockdown mode where I can have my agent sync my allowlist with my hardware.

Like give me the list of what I can turn on and off, and then let me choose my lockdown sphere.

That’s the future, and it’s coming.

iririririr 2 hours ago||
your future, ironically, is android 2.3, before google went full monopoly evil
so-gala-massey 13 hours ago|||
[flagged]
lelandfe 13 hours ago|||
I can send my friends a PDF of a restaurant's menu over iMessage. I think that wouldn't work for you?
so-gala-massey 13 hours ago||
[flagged]
Panino 14 hours ago||||
I use Lockdown Mode and the functionality I get is nothing like a $50 device. If you're being serious can you link to some $50 devices for sale that are on par with a recent iPhone Pro running in Lockdown Mode?
Too 36 minutes ago|||
I’d bet the security of those $50 phones is worse than an iPhone without lockdown mode.
slowin 15 hours ago||
#3 is so nice, I want root access to my phone. Does anyone know if doing this can lock Apple out from updating/removing it?
aseipp 15 hours ago||
Subverting the secure boot/upgrade chain would require a SecureROM exploit and presumably a compromise of the Secure Enclave, so the answer is almost certainly "no" (even prior major exploits from recent memory like usbliter8 are tethered and don't exploit the enclave; the last true untethered Jailbreak was iOS 9 or something.) An upgrade would fix it. The internet reporting claims this break they are showing in this video is untethered though, which is extremely rare on its own.
silasdavis 17 minutes ago|||
Genuinely, why have an iPhone in the first place if you want this?
whilenot-dev 9 minutes ago||
It's good to have that option for every phone out there.
drum55 15 hours ago|||
The videos sort of imply that these are userland rather than bootrom, whatever payload they have running is getting hit before first unlock, which isn't a lot of surface. They specifically say to not update which pretty much confirms where the attack surface is. Somewhere after the kernel starts but before the main user space is unlocked with the passcode.
palata 7 hours ago|||
I know it's an unpopular opinion, but I disagree.

I want the freedom to install the OS I want on my phone. Now if I install a proprietary OS, I get what the developers of that proprietary OS choose to do. And if that proprietary OS does not give me root access, well, that's life.

iririririr 2 hours ago||
the fact this opinion is voted down, is clear proof HN is late to be renamed something else, because hacker it isn't
Klonoar 5 minutes ago|||
I once again am pointing to the sign that states this was never a l33t-hax0r board like you all think; it's always been an arm of one of the leading VC incubators.

Stop expecting differently.

__m 32 minutes ago|||
I don’t think that hackers would agree to be locked out of a system, or do you mean they want to be locked out as a challenge? In any case you don’t get to choose which OS gets installed, so the parent’s opinion is hypothetical.
palata 4 minutes ago||
> In any case you don’t get to choose which OS gets installed

Of course you do. You can run GrapheneOS, or LineageOS, postmarketOS, or mobian, or many others. All of those are open source, you can modify them as you want before you flash them.

easytiger 15 hours ago||
Well the governments and supranational bodies who want to read your messages would be aghast at you having root on your phone.

Like we did on HTC G1s in 2008

aemoron 15 hours ago||
What's with iOS and pdfs pwning them? Reminds me of the ForcedEntry in Pegasus.

https://projectzero.google/2022/03/forcedentry-sandbox-escap...

https://www.trendmicro.com/en_gb/research/21/i/analyzing-peg...

enjoytheview 15 hours ago||
PDF has been an entry point since forever, it is extremely complex and can in some cases even run javascript, it has a huge attack surface.
xvector 7 hours ago||
Why can't Apple just sandbox the damn thing? Run the renderer in a VM, call it a day.

Or just spend a few billion tokens rewriting the whole chain in a memory safe language. This nonsense is inexcusable in 2026

kccqzy 6 hours ago|||
I sincerely believe you need much more than one billion tokens to rewrite the entire PDF dependency stack in a memory safe language. I think you underestimate how many features PDF has.
dd8601fn 1 hour ago||
I wish that Apple today was a little more like the Apple that ruthlessly murdered the floppy disc and Flash.
iririririr 2 hours ago||||
it offers just enough cover and deniability. Q.e.d this sub thread.

it's a feature. expect next exploit to also be pdf or image related.

sneurlax 4 hours ago|||
The sandbox is just another layer
dyzone 2 hours ago||
A bulletproof vest is just another layer.
motoboi 15 hours ago|||
Too huge attack surface. Good candidate for victim trust (who would not open a pdf file on an iPhone?).

So pdf and images are the best vector for iPhones.

Once you escape the parser you have to reach and escape the sandbox and from there reach the kernel.

anthk 14 hours ago||
That's why you need Rust in any image decoder. FFMPEG too.
steve1977 13 hours ago|||
Apple has been propagating Swift for more than a decade now and at least in theory, it should be on par with Rust in terms of safety I'd say.
motoboi 11 hours ago|||
They probably link libraries written in C, given the scope of the pdf and image parsing.
frizlab 13 hours ago|||
It mostly is. Has pretty much caught up with all of rust actually (while being much more readable).
OptionX 8 hours ago||||
The problem here is that pdf is over bloated with features and without strictly defined standard. Rust can't help you with that, or any language for that matter. It's akin to upgrading the security system on a house on fire.

The best solution would be ditching it completely for a simpler subset of features. But that will never happen.

NetMageSCW 14 hours ago|||
Rust is not a magic security wand.
gejose 13 hours ago|||
It might not be a magic security wand, but so many critical vulnerabilities in software trace their origins to memory unsafe code and things like "use after free".

"~70% of the vulnerabilities Microsoft assigns a CVE each year continue to be memory safety issues" - Microsoft [1]

"We adopted Rust for its security and are seeing a 1000x reduction in memory safety vulnerability density compared to Android’s C and C++ code." - Google on Android [2]

This is also worth looking: https://www.chromium.org/Home/chromium-security/memory-safet...

References: 1. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/msrc/blog/2019/07/a-proactiv... 2. https://blog.google/security/rust-in-android-move-fast-fix-t...

anthk 13 hours ago||
If I were Google I'd try to rewrite Chromium in Rust. The FFMPEG folks should try porting the whole codebase to Rust too. They can always keep the legacy versions for legacy computers (my old n270 netbook can barely play 720p@30FPS anyway, and it's too slow to downsize 4k video to 720 or 480p...), so a bigger amd64 machine will always be -reallistically- needed for anything else than <=720p consumption.
nkjoep 12 hours ago||
What folks at Ladybird did this year. Started adopting rust for part if not all their engine.
genxy 2 hours ago||||
They didn't enumerate everything you need, nor did they say Rust was a magic security wand. Cast your gas somewhere else.
mr_toad 11 hours ago||||
No, but it was created to mitigate these sorts of risks.
wat10000 11 hours ago||||
It kind of is, as is any other memory safe language.

You certainly can still write security vulnerabilities that don't involve memory safety violations, and these languages always have unsafe escape hatches that you can use to shoot yourself in the foot. But as long as you don't just sprinkle unsafe on everything, using a safer language is going to make a ton of vulnerabilities just disappear.

Looking at the issues from this past week, safe languages won't stop you from using 4 as your private key, but they would have entirely prevented the PHP vulnerability.

anthk 13 hours ago|||
It cuts down most of the crap trying to trash your machine's RAM (virtual memory in the end, but today it's almost as if you didn't have a MMU). It's good enough.

On less powerful machines, dear Mutt+isync+msmtp users like me, please use AERC (written in Go) against these. It's slower, but far more secure than C. Also, SLRN needs a Go rewritten clone (able to point to slrn's caché) like nothing else. Comp.misc and comp.arch still are extremely valuable.

creata 9 hours ago|||
If it wasn't PDF it'd be something else. It's everything after the PDF that's alarming here - how did they break out of the app sandbox?
tech234a 9 hours ago|||
I wonder if pdf.js would be more secure since it runs inside a webpage and can benefit from the browser sandboxing. Though I guess iOS has generally managed to keep most of its apps native rather than web app wrappers (as has happened on Windows).
mahboi 15 hours ago|||
Well it was TIFF one time
sneurlax 4 hours ago||
TIFFs were used as part of a PSP jailbreak as well iirc
NetMageSCW 14 hours ago|||
Never mind - that only applied to origins PDF 1.x.
midtake 9 hours ago|||
Does Lockdown block all PDFs?
creata 8 hours ago||
No, it doesn't.
dpacmittal 9 hours ago|||
pdf is the new swf
bushbaba 14 hours ago||
Maybe with LLMs a full rewrite that’s more secure could be done
ASalazarMX 14 hours ago|||
LLM and full rewrite are a recipe for cooking something that still has flaws but also doesn't work that well. The root cause is that PDF is an old format from a more innocent era. A new document standard that keeps up with the technical and security advances, learns about the lessons PDF taught us, and allows for easy conversion from old PDFs, would be the ideal solution.

Who am I kidding, I think the PDF format will outlive us.

jitl 13 hours ago||
> PDF is an old format from a more innocent era

if apple parsed pdf with (js, swift, rust) none of this would be possible. the problem is memory-unsafe code.

Someone 11 hours ago||
> if apple parsed pdf with (js, swift, rust) none of this would be possible

Interpreters and compilers can have bugs. Bugs can cause memory safety issues.

dgellow 14 hours ago|||
A full rewrite of what? iOS? I hope you’re kidding
anthk 13 hours ago||
Apple can rewrite the media and PDF libraries in no time in Swift/Rust, they have tons of money to waste.
doc_ick 12 hours ago||
In no time? What are you talking about? It’d take months even with llms for it to be fully polished and tested if they started now.
sneurlax 4 hours ago||
If anybody has the resources to do it, tho, they do

They have the means, they have the motivation

Lately they have fewer and fewer excuses not to

paxy 15 hours ago||
Man, sucks to see these "hacked" iPhones doing so many cooler things than my Apple-approved one.
vessenes 14 hours ago||
It’s a mix - for years I wanted root on my iPhones, just like you got on android. In practice, once I had it…? I never did much beyond installing Cydia.

With today’s hardware I might have a different take - the 18 has more than enough hardware to be a laptop so maybe I’d use it for a docking mode. But my gut is I’d probably still want a laptop even then.

To me the upshot is : billions of development, software and hardware, have gone into the platforms - it’s hard to quickly make them significantly better.

wavemode 13 hours ago|||
When I owned an iPod touch, the advantage of jailbreaking was to give your device certain features that the OS just didn't support. (Hell, I remember early days when iOS didn't even have a concept of wallpaper, the background was just black.)

iOS has come a long way since those days so a lot of the most common use cases of the past are no longer necessary. But the principle is the same - the hardware is a general-purpose computer but the software is locked down unnecessarily in many ways. Jailbreaking lets you do things that are outside of Apple's box.

ryandrake 12 hours ago|||
A much-needed advantage is also keeping old devices useful. Every Apple phone slowly outlives its supported software to the point where the official AppStore has almost nothing in it. Today, it's extremely difficult to find 3P apps that work with my current iPhone 7, which is not that old, because the ecosystem cuts off old phones very quickly.
vessenes 13 hours ago|||
I agree, and, if you have a developer certificate from Apple, the list of wants I have is ... not that long? zero? I'd love to be pitched on it. In practice, I wanted freedom, but didn't really want to do anything with it.
ultrarunner 2 hours ago||||
The equalizer is easily 20 years old, and is restricted to presets. Presets! A parametric EQ is the only thing that can make Apple's own Powerbeats Pro sound good. And for several golden years (despite lots of Apple's work against it) we had a really good jailbreak equalizer that worked with Apple Music. Eventually I just gave up on the whole thing. But I remember going out for trail runs with good sounding music without worrying about losing my earbuds.
joshstrange 11 hours ago||||
I jailbroke every iPhone I had for many, many years. Most of the time it was silly skins/tweaks but there were a number of things that were huge QoL improvements. I remember BiteSMS and using it as a way to reply to a text directly in the notification instead of having to leave the app. This was before iOS had that feature and before multitasking, back when if you left the game you were playing the app would quit. Also had folders before stock iOS, things like Control Center, and a whole slew of little tweaks for other apps I used.

The downside to jailbreaking was often the instability but that was also back when the phones were way less powerful. Today, armed with LLMs, I would love to have root on my iPhone again. I'd love to rip out Siri and replace it with Claude Code or something like that.

psygn89 12 hours ago||||
There's just less reason today for someone like me that liked the utilitarian benefits of a jailbroken iPhone. I used it for gestures, caller mini preview, grouped notifications, etc. All things that are now baked in.
busymom0 2 hours ago||||
I just want to be able to run things like yt-dlp on iPhone
deadbabe 4 hours ago|||
The only reason to do this today is to turn your iPhone into a tool for other nefarious purposes or clickbot type farms.
Zak 15 hours ago|||
I'm for being able to hack your own device to do whatever you like with it, preferably without active resistance from its manufacturer. I'm against anybody who can convince you to open a PDF being able to hack your device to do whatever they like with it.
wavemode 14 hours ago|||
The point the parent commenter is making is that they want Apple to allow people the freedom to intentionally mod the functionality of their device. Not that they literally want single-click PDF exploits to be a thing.
paxy 15 hours ago||||
Who is saying this?
Zak 15 hours ago||
The link here demonstrates an exploit which runs arbitrary code on an iPhone when the user opens a PDF.
paxy 15 hours ago||
> I'm against anybody who can convince you to open a PDF being able to hack your device to do whatever they like with it.

Who is saying this part?

Asking for an open device does not mean supporting malicious hacking of others. This is the single biggest false equivalence used by Apple and the rest of the industry to keep a closed ecosystem and restrict users' control over stuff they paid for. And people continue perpetuating it for some reason.

Zak 15 hours ago|||
Nobody said exactly that, but your first comment pointed out how cool the capability is without acknowledging that it is trivial to exploit maliciously.

We're on the same side here. I daily a Pixel with LineageOS and root.

bobthebuilders 13 hours ago|||
If you phone is hackable by you, what stops someone else from hacking it? Ultimately, it's a trade off between security and openness, and I think it's good that there are choices on both sides.
Zak 12 hours ago|||
This comment is tricky because "hack" can mean different things in different contexts.

If I run software the OEM didn't authorize on a phone that I own and know the password for, that might be described as a "hack". Unless you're one of the horrible people trying to push OS-level DRM on everything, my doing that is a positive or neutral thing.

If a third party gets software that I didn't authorize to run on a phone that I own by tricking me into opening a malicious PDF, that's also a "hack". Almost everyone considers that a bad thing.

One does not imply the other.

ledoge 12 hours ago||||
Once you have used an exploit to get system access to your own device, you can patch the software to prevent anyone else from using the same vulnerabilities. See e.g. https://github.com/EolnMsuk/AntiDarkSword (but of course, as more and more vulnerabilities keep being found, it becomes basically impossible to backport all the fixes)
bigyabai 15 hours ago||||
iOS has enough zero-click exploits that you don't exactly get a choice between the two.
2III7 15 hours ago||
You don't get that choice on any mobile platform.
iririririr 2 hours ago|||
[dead]
chrisbrandow 14 hours ago|||
What in these videos is so much cooler than what you can do on an Apple approved one? Other than, "As a programmer, I can do anything", I just personally don't see any capabilities unlocked that I can't have with an app or whatever. But I might be missing something.
NetMageSCW 14 hours ago|||
The only thing I really miss from my jailbreak days is an app that could talk to the cellular baseband and display all cell towers nearby on a map and showed which you were using.

I used to have my home screens fully customized but that’s a lot of work creating icons for hundreds of apps. Or even dozens.

lstb1t 13 hours ago|||
1. install apps without the app store so we dont ahve to pay 100 bucks yearly for it to apple

2. run linux

3. run emulators

4. run VMs

5. install steam

6. make it a media server

etc

al_borland 12 hours ago|||
Apple added emulator support a couple of years ago. Delta works great.

I’ve seen and used terminal applications from the App Store that seem to run a Linux VM locally, which would check off items 2 and 4.

forgotpwd16 10 hours ago||
Retro game emulators were allowed only 2y ago and bold retro. JIT is still not allowed so they are restricted in being run in interpreted mode. Also, neither is allowed executing arbitrary arm64 binaries. And, of course, no hypervisor access. The Linux-using term (iSH) works by utilizing a x86 emulator / compatibility layer (basically translates x86 binaries and maps Linux calls to native ones). In the sole VM host available, UTM SE, the "SE" means "slow edition". Now jailbreak and you've full, JIT-capable, UTM (QEMU) and NewTerm (kinda Termux for iOS). Hypervisor access still not possible though.
brynnb 11 hours ago|||
run a real browser!
AnthonyMouse 25 minutes ago||
This is one of the strongest arguments for why ordinary users need the ability to do this. Not only because they would actually benefit from it (e.g. better ad blockers), but because things like that have a network effect that you can't get from the four people who root own their iPhone with a PDF being the only ones able to install a third party browser engine.
al_borland 12 hours ago||
I watched the “Can your iPhone do this?” video, assuming that was the coolest one. The others seemed like they’d just be showing the exploit.

It seemed like a silly party trick with no practical purpose, and required the terminal to reset things back to normal so the phone was useful again. Why does anyone want this? Surely there are better uses than what was demoed?

I used to jailbreak during the first few years of iPhone. I remember being able to drag out from the bottom right corner of the screen to have a launcher, similar to the Dock, but with more stuff. But over time, the iOS got more features and the argument for jailbreaking became less compelling. This is especially true now that so much sensitive information is in our phones… so I trust all this stuff that effectively has root?

bredren 12 hours ago||
I took this as a demonstration of ownage on the latest release, versus an attempt to show some jailbreak-only feature.

The evidence of hack is the feature.

ghm2180 15 hours ago||
Noob q: Does this(and most) hacks like this on the iphone likely rely on some kernel module — or what it talks to for executing code — being compromised to run arbitrary code execution? I dunno about ios but it seems from the videos that something that reads imessage attachments was compromised for privilege escalation.

Like what im mean is an attack vector shaped similar to https://pepsipu.com/blog/2026-10-switch2-jailbreak-ns2jb/ i.e. they compromised `fs` module that did not protect against a buffer attack(in memmov)? My understanding is that most core kernel modules are difficult to attack directly because of XOM, PAC and CFI like protections make it impossible for anyone/thing, so most likely only indirect attacks like above can work in such situations — there is a lot of incentive for teams like apple to do everything possible to improve security so i assume only these kind of difficult to find vectors remain.

varenc 10 hours ago|
hacks like these, where you go from a PDF to full persistence, require a chain of exploits. Pegasus, the iOS malware that made the news awhile ago, used a chain of 3 exploits like this:

   [ Stage 1: Safari/WebKit ] ──> [ Stage 2: KASLR Bypass ] ──> [ Stage 3: Kernel Execution ]
     (Memory Corruption/RCE)        (Kernel Info Leak)            (UAF Privilege Escalation)
erelong 15 hours ago||
Hoping more "unsupported" older "iDevices" can be made usable with newer software with something like "jailbreaking"
Waterluvian 15 hours ago||
It's a felony to subvert the natural order of disposable tech consumerism.
gambiting 15 hours ago||
I can 100% guarantee that we'll have comments from people saying they buy iPhones specifically because of the walled garden and the last thing they want is a jail broken device. On a website called Hacker News.
lambdaone 15 hours ago|||
I'm glad to confirm your suspicion. I like to have both a walled-garden phone and several open-platform computers. They do two completely different things for me.

To be honest, I'd like my open computers to be even more open and hackable, with a secure boot path that doesn't involve any mysterious unpatchable embedded firmware or auxiliary CPUs, but we are slowly getting there with RISC V.

Waterluvian 15 hours ago|||
I want the same kind of phone. But I reject the premise that it's impossible to have a deeply nested "De-wall this device yes I know what I am doing yes I confirm I'm about to really open myself to issues if I don't understand the implications" settings option without compromising the walled mode security.
gambiting 15 hours ago||||
The point is that no one forces you to jailbreak your iPhone. If you like the walled garden - great! Keep using it! But I've been in plenty of discussions where iPhone users are literally against jailbreaks at all and in any form.
arjie 14 hours ago|||
I want a device I can give the elderly in my family that they cannot be easily induced into doing insecure things on. If there were an unlockable iPhone and a locked iPhone I want to give them the latter. It’s not enough for me to tell them not to scroll to General and click seven times on About to activate developer mode. I would prefer to just give them a device that can’t do that.

My own parents are still relatively young and my in-laws are sceptical enough of other people that it’s currently safe but it won’t be so forever.

zarzavat 7 hours ago|||
Just make enabling jailbroken mode require a factory reset of the device.

The biggest risk is not elderly people but rather the owner giving their passcode to someone else, e.g. a repair shop, who then enables jailbroken mode without the owner's knowledge and installs malware.

You can mitigate this problem, and the elderly person problem, by requiring the phone to be factory reset. That way any jailbreak would be extremely obvious.

prmph 14 hours ago||||
Mostly agree with you, but:

> My own parents are still relatively young and my in-laws are sceptical enough of other people that it’s currently safe but it won’t be so forever.

It is always interesting to me how people equate getting old with becoming dumb. I know there is definitely some age related decline that's inevitable, but if a person has grown up with computers, and maybe more importantly, has had a hacker and curious mindset while younger, it is not likely that they will suddenly become so naive and vulnerable, even when like 80.

What usually happens is that people lose interest in learning new things and keeping up. My own mom (who passed at 73) could never be convinced to use Whatsapp messaging, thinking it is something complicated for the young ones, and yet I currently know people in their mid 70s and even much older who are still as sharp as anything and use all the cool apps.

p1anecrazy 58 minutes ago|||
I assume you didn’t have experience of your older relatives being targeted by professional criminals. I’m not talking about online honeytraps, in some countries these gangs will mix offline and online schemes (e.g. pretending to be social workers, driving my grandma to the bank, buying her a new smartphone to get access to her online banking, which were stopped by her luckily “forgetting” her current smartphone/banking PIN code).

That’s for Eastern Europe. I heard a similar line of reasoning for banning rooted phones in Asia and it’s easy for me to relate to that. It seems as if first-world hackers here just don’t grasp how low criminals can and will go.

gambiting 47 minutes ago||
I'm also from eastern Europe. This scenario you mentioned wouldn't be stopped by your inability to jailbreak the device. A criminal gang willing to go this far will just get your relative to send them money directly, or buy gift cards or send a western union transfer or literally just give them cash. Or like you said, they will literally buy your relative a new phone to set up for banking.
NetMageSCW 13 hours ago|||
Sadly there’s also dementia where a gradual decline occurs. And I’m pretty sure learning gets harder.
gambiting 10 hours ago|||
>>I want a device I can give the elderly in my family that they cannot be easily induced into doing insecure things on.

Perfect, I knew this would come up. It always does. "I don't want someone to convince my elderly relative to hack their phone and do something bad". It's such an infuriating argument - no, YOU can't have freedom to do whatever you want with the device you own, because MY elderly relative might get scammed.

>>I would prefer to just give them a device that can’t do that.

There are a number of phones available that can just do calls and nothing else. If your elderly relative cannot follow the most basic advice of "don't listen to people calling you and telling you to do something on your phone" then that's all they should use.

Like, honestly - if you think your elderly relative will follow a 20 step process to go to a dodgy site, run a bunch of commands to jailbreak their phone, then download an alternative store to MAYBE download a dodgy bank app....what stops them from just following instructions from a scammer to send their money urgently to this account they named because the bank is doing maintenance on their servers and the money needs to be moved now or be lost? I love these "elderly relatives" who simultaniously don't have 2 brain cells and will follow jailbreaking instructions but who won't fall for any much easier scam involving direct transfers, gift cards or even good old fashioned cash in an envelope.

p1anecrazy 48 minutes ago|||
> There are a number of phones available that can just do calls and nothing else.

iPhone is this phone. Easiest to use, customer-friendly, options for limiting apps, large icons etc.

But for some reason, despite the dominance of Android phones on the market, custom smartphones being released almost every month, you want the foolproof layer to be stripped from iPhone. Why?

gambiting 9 minutes ago||
>>iPhone is this phone. Easiest to use, customer-friendly, options for limiting apps, large icons etc.

And no one is forcing you or your elderly relative to jailbreak it.

>> you want the foolproof layer to be stripped from iPhone

No, I want you(and me) to have the ability to strip it.

>>Why?

Because I want to be able to jailbreak the device I own and run the code that I write without asking Apple for their blessing. It's not any more complicated than this.

arjie 10 hours ago|||
You can do whatever you want with what you own. And I want this restricted device. So you go be the market for yours and I’ll be the market for mine. I don’t understand what the problem is here. There are no shortage of phones on the market - many of them entirely rootable. It seems like you’re upset I want to buy an EV because you want to put gas in your car. Just go buy the gas car. No one is stopping you here (well except the EU I suppose haha).
gambiting 9 hours ago||
>> And I want this restricted device >>I don’t understand what the problem is here.

That's the problem. There should be no restricted devices at all, not in the way currently presented by Apple and others.

>>It seems like you’re upset I want to buy an EV because you want to put gas in your car.

More like, you want to buy a car that's locked to only charging at Apple provided charging stations. I say every car sold should be able to charge anywhere from any station. But we're stretching the comparison thin.

erelong 7 hours ago||
I share your sentiments but I wonder realistically how far we are from AI just "jailbreaking all the things", rendering the conversation moot

Like they can try to lock some things down, and some of those barriers we may not be able to get around, but how much of enough of them will we be able to circumvent?

Ideally this would probably not affect newer hardened devices but could unlock a bunch of older otherwise "unusable" hardware that functionally is "e-waste" currently

NetMageSCW 13 hours ago|||
Windows malware that says stuff like click Yes on the warning bar or box shows how well that works.
iririririr 2 hours ago|||
sounds like those rich college kids who pretend to be intellectual communists.
bunderbunder 15 hours ago||||
Earlier today on the thread about the google play store apocalypse I posted a comment saying that I like some things about life in Apple's walled garden. But I still upvoted the parent comment because it's true and it's funny.

Also I'd happily jailbreak my iPhone and put an alternative OS on it to extend its lifespan. I'm a living human with nuanced opinions and I'm allowed to like more than one thing.

fhdkweig 15 hours ago||
I got curious when you mentioned "google play store apocalypse", but I can't seem to find a comment of yours on the topic today. Would you be willing to post a link?
bunderbunder 15 hours ago||
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50209087
fhdkweig 15 hours ago||
thanks
Vaushite 15 hours ago||||
The meaning of Hacker here is VC Startup Founder
wuhhh 15 hours ago||
You said what I was thinking. If anyone has links for _hacker_ news drop them here ;)
Vaushite 15 hours ago||
Can't, I'd be autobanned, but this one is allowed at least: https://unslop.news/
asdffdasy 2 hours ago|||
THANK YOU! i somehow missed this.

replacing my hn bookmark.

MYEUHD 14 hours ago|||
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49660783#49663549
2III7 15 hours ago||||
I converted to an iphone 13 mini (from the S24 Ultra) after being on Android since the release of the HTC Desire in 2010. I used to install custom roms and tweak everything on all of my Android phones which actually lead me to the iphone because I realized I wanted a phone without all the OE clutter and Google crap. The only clutter on the iphone is icloud which stays out of the way and doesn't annoy me with subscription messages. Also I don't have time to fuck around with modifying my phone. I just want everything to work without user intervention.
gambiting 15 hours ago||
And you can keep doing that, no once forces you to jailbreak.
ribosometronome 15 hours ago||
"No one forces you..." is an interesting line to go down in the comments of an article that focuses on using messaging apps to deliver exploits to a cellphone. It's pretty malware adjacent. Isn't that sort of thing how Jamal Khashoggi and his friends, family, and coworkers were hacked before his murder/execution?
foltik 14 hours ago||
Uhh, what? Clearly nobody is arguing that "arbitrary remote execution is good." Apple could easily satisfy everyone by simply allowing users to unlock their own bootloader.
NetMageSCW 13 hours ago||
How would that help anyone? The unlocked bootloader on the Apple Silicon Macbooks still hasn’t resulted in a truly viable alternative to macOS. The iPhone is much, much harder. And why would carriers trust the result?
foltik 13 hours ago||
You’re missing the point. Hackers (in the tinkerer sense) just want to program their own devices, with full access to the capabilities of the underlying hardware. Apple could obviously allow that if they wanted to, in a convenient way that doesn’t increase the attack surface for malware.
cosmic_cheese 15 hours ago||||
Having control over one's device and allowing anything and everything to have free reign on said device are two different things.

I'd love to have more control and customizability that the user can initiate, but random executables shouldn't be able to so much as sneeze without my permission. Third party software (yes, even the FLOSS variety due to issues such as supply chain compromises) must be treated as adversarial by default, anything less is foolishness.

NetMageSCW 13 hours ago|||
Why would you trust the user with their own security. Have you not seen the ten most common passwords?
foltik 12 hours ago||
You’re engaging in bad faith, and parroting the same false equivalence between security and user freedom that Apple uses to keep a chokehold on their software distribution monopoly.

Having some way to unlock an iPhone doesn’t at all imply it must be done in a way that reduces security, or trusts the average user with upholding it.

Use your imagination. They could require you to have an apple developer account. Or visit an apple store. Or even limit it to a special developer unlocked iPhone flavor.

pishpash 14 hours ago|||
Yeah, this gives a new meaning to demanding your password at the border.
MYEUHD 15 hours ago||||
I like jailbreaks.

But to jailbreak you need to stay on an older iOS version (because Apple patches the bugs enabling the jailbreaks). And that means you don't get security updates.

NetMageSCW 13 hours ago||
Except for the good old days when jailbreaks included patching the exploit :)
ragequittah 15 hours ago||||
I can root my Android phone and have in the past, but I have absolutely no desire to do so now because it adds almost no functionality in exchange for a very large security risk. I consider rooting my phone in the past quite a foolish move by someone who didn't know better.
dingaling 13 hours ago||
People are trading the future of personal computing just so they can run a banking app and justify it with "but I want my phone to be locked down for security." Not even sleepwalking into corporate-controlled-computing, but actively promoting it.

10, 15 years from now the ability to run your own code will be a distant memory unless you constantly subscribe to an annual Developer Account with BigCorp. Oh no, you've coded something that violates the ToS; account terminated.

ragequittah 11 hours ago|||
Such a wild take to me. I install an entirely different operating system on my phone (graphene) which also advises me not to root because it's stupidly unsafe to do so. I also don't log in as root on linux, nor do I log in as an administrator in windows. None of these are sane practices to anyone worried about security.
prmoustache 10 hours ago||
To be honest this matter more on graphene than on linux or windows because of the sandboxing of all apps by default.

On Linux and Windows it doesn't make a huge difference to be admin or not on a single user system. If you have a process on windows running with your user rights it can access all your data, which means game over already. Same on Linux if you aren't using heavily sandboxed flatpaks or do not run all your apps inside jails using tools like landrun or firejail.

ragequittah 9 hours ago||
There's a reason why enterprises don't give you an admin account on Windows. Sure damage can still be done, but the blast radius is highly reduced. It was like the first rule I learned about Linux back in the day: don't ever log in as root, don't even bother enabling it. Hell it's not even a good idea to do it on an offline computer cuz you might accidentally bork something yourself. The barrier of at least a password to install system level software or delete critical files is a good one to have.
prmoustache 9 hours ago||
It only limits the blast radius on multiusers systems or when people do not follow basic security measures like having a different password on each computer. I agree it is a good one to avoid breaking the system yourself too easily but that is only if you don't blindly copy paste commands with sudo.

The only thing it mitigates really is how easy a malware can hide in the system once already present. But as said earlier once running under your username it is game over, your data is right here ready to be stolen, compromised, altered, destroyed or encrypted.

Gigachad 11 hours ago|||
I have plenty of devices like raspberry pi’s and handheld Linux gaming devices that allow free unlimited access. My phone is the one thing I want fully secured because it’s where all my most important data and keys are.
asdffdasy 2 hours ago||
and yet it's likely to be less secure than all the others.

or does your xterm binary scans your contract list and recently opened apps and upload all that to Facebook servers? because most apps on your so secure phone do exactly that

quickthrowman 14 hours ago||||
I’m fine with a locked down iPhone. All of my financial account credentials are on there, personal photographs, etc. Since I’ve owned an iPhone, I’ve never had a non-working phone. Security and reliability are the two most important items to me when it comes to a phone.

If I want to run arbitrary software, I have a computer. I am unsure why you care if I want a locked down reliable phone.

hparadiz 14 hours ago||||
These are the same people that caused this situation. A close platform is only closed until it's busted right open and then everyone is screwed because there were no eyes on it the entire time.
latexr 14 hours ago||||
> people saying they buy iPhones specifically because of the walled garden and the last thing they want is a jail broken device.

I’m not one of those people.

> On a website called Hacker News.

But I still find that unfair. Being a hacker doesn’t mean you want to hack every aspect of your life. I’m perfectly content hacking away on a computer, but I have no desire to hack my toaster and risk burning down my house.

travoc 15 hours ago|||
It’s reasonable to like to hack things, but to want a phone that just works.
mebrainmush 15 hours ago||
Not sure what your definition of "hack" is but apple seems to be "anti hack" on all fronts.

They do have good hardware, but surely the hacker in you is a little sad using an IPhone!

conception 11 hours ago||
Yeah I have a perfectly fine iPad air and pro that are completely unusable. Nothing installs and nothing supports whats installed.
erelong 7 hours ago||
yeah it's kind of weird because some old mac laptops I've used were easy to work with and put on third party software (Linux), but the things like ipads and iphones not so much...

edit: it's like... just give us the same option for the ipads / iphones please?

jinseokim 11 hours ago||
I just feel a bit sad and impotent that a number of security researchers outside the circle cannot join their "yo we found more crazy bugs" party because simply frontier labs only give access to those models with "Red Team" availability to the inner circle members/companies.

Now their "trusted cyber access" program is moat rather than safeguard.

ipsum2 11 hours ago|
You can do a lot with the Chinese open source models.
wslh 8 hours ago|||
Not in my experience (yes, sample ~= 1), where they are subpar in terms of cybersecurity (e.g. source code review). This is one of my reports using GPT 5.6 (High), GLM 5.3 High, Fable 5.1 [1]:

> On the full benchmark of 31 audited revisions, GPT-5.6 Sol High reached a weighted recall of 38.27% and GLM-5.3 High reached 30.86%. On a common subset of 12 projects, Claude Fable 5.1 High reached 65.70%, against 42.98% for GPT and 35.54% for GLM.

[1] https://github.com/CoinFabrik/soroban-audit-harness/blob/mai...

therein 1 hour ago||
How about Kimi?
_rs 11 hours ago|||
That assumes you have the hardware capable of running inference on them at a reasonable speed
noosphr 11 hours ago|||
Or $10 on open router.
ipsum2 11 hours ago|||
Or it assumes you have $5 to spend on the tokens for inference. Not everyone has the money.
r_lee 10 hours ago||
it takes a lot more than that....
bhelkey 10 hours ago||
On OpenRouter, GLM 5.3 Flash costs $0.0285 for 1M input tokens and $0.0923 for 1M output tokens. [1]

[1] https://openrouter.ai/z-ai/glm-5.3-flash

r_lee 10 hours ago|||
if you wanna have the same kind of capability as these researchers where you have tight loops calling cli stuff you won't get by with $5 at all, especially for major bugs

if you have a way to turn $5 easily into exploitable vulns, let me know cause that'd be a first for me

xvector 7 hours ago|||
Token burn is insane and it sucks at long horizon tasks.
MarkusWandel 13 hours ago||
Anything you can find with an LLM to break into a locked device/ecosystem, the operators of that ecosystem can find with an LLM too, and fix it. Right?
CGMthrowaway 13 hours ago||
Only if it's in updateable software. Hardware takes longer to correct.

Hence Sam Altman's latest public comment: "I don't even know a dramatic enough word to use… models can find bugs that are outside of the normal threat model of what we think a hacker can do… hardware-level, insane stuff… I no longer think we're gonna be able to just patch all the bugs."

jeffbee 13 hours ago||
This is true for things other than LLMs. Outside contributors have been credited with hundreds of security fixes to macOS and iOS that were found with fuzzers and sanitizers. Just off the top of my head CVE-2019-8605. Clearly, Apple has access to AddressSanitizer and libfuzzer, but outsiders still find these things. Not only Apple: Google can find flaws in iOS but outsiders also find flaws in Chrome, so the phenomenon is widespread.
arjie 15 hours ago||
Same guys who found the PHP.

Edit: hahaha you guys are funny. “The php hack” is what I meant!

awestroke 15 hours ago|
They found the PHP?
hk__2 15 hours ago|||
Yes, actually PHP was not invented but discovered in nature. That’s why it’s a bit wild sometimes, because it still remembers its origins.
rob74 15 hours ago|||
PHP was born as a templating language, but mutated into a programming language, and then grew organically from there.
jc_811 15 hours ago|||
Craziest part is it was never even intended to be a programming language. From the Wikipedia page, the founder Rasmus Lerdorf is quoted as saying:

"I don't know how to stop it [...] there was never any intent to write a programming language [...] I have absolutely no idea how to write a programming language [...] I just kept adding the next logical step on the way."

And 23 years later here we are with php2shell and it powering 70% of the internet’s websites

karagenit 15 hours ago||
Everything becomes a programming language in due time. At work we have YAML files with #if and #include statements…
dylan604 15 hours ago|||
Does that mean eventually a programming language becomes a crab or a crab becomes a programming language?
sneurlax 4 hours ago||
Crabs are programs
xorcist 14 hours ago|||
Is that before or after it evolves to read mail?
cwnyth 15 hours ago|||
But that only raises the question: what bore PHP? A bit of a C(hicken) and an egg situation.
Zak 15 hours ago||
I am reasonably certain PHP is not written in Chicken.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicken_(Scheme_implementation...

kalleboo 15 hours ago|||
I mean there's no way there was any intelligent design behind it

/ducks and runs

rob74 15 hours ago||||
Didn't know that the PHP was lost, thanks for pointing that out.
hxugufjfjf 15 hours ago||||
They found the PHP vulnerability that has upended the world, or so it seems.
bix6 15 hours ago|||
The Princely Hippopotamus Parlor in this case.
lazopm 12 hours ago|
Is PDF the new Flash? It just does too much for its own good, it has become a huge attack vector
wry_xy 9 hours ago|
I'm continually amazed that PDF has survived this long while so many other technologies have died. Not only is it a constant vulnerability, but it's not even good at its job. Absolutely miserable UX and DX.
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