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Posted by Jowsey 18 hours ago

Kimi K3.1 Pro and K3.1 Pro Highspeed(www.kimi.ai)
https://www.kimi.com/code/docs/en/kimi-code/models.html

https://artificialanalysis.ai/models/kimi-k3-1-pro

https://www.modelcompare.ai/blog/china-open-source-ai

917 points | 534 commentspage 4
wkcheng 17 hours ago|
It would be super useful to have more specific analyses of what areas the model is good at. I'd like to know when I should reach for this model instead of Anthropic's or OpenAI's.

For example, Opus 5.5 is better at UI design than Sol. Anyone who has used both models knows that, but it's not something you can look up anywhere.

I'm sure that there's a need for this kind of benchmarking, not just for coding.

AlanYx 17 hours ago||
One things Kimi is useful for is accessing/querying websites that have paywalls or try to prevent use by AI agents. It is aggressive and persistent for that, though not always successful.
brazukadev 17 hours ago|||
Not sure if this is benchmarkable besides for the own person deciding which one they like more. Models difference is more about taste, preferences and prompt style.
AspireOne 17 hours ago|||
Furthermore, "UI design" is not a narrow enough category, I think. Sure, statistically significant differences in performance between models do manifest when benchmarking against "UI design", but there's still just so much variance within the category. Opus 5.5 can have excellent one-shot results, but totally shit the bed when it's placed in an existing codebase and should uphold the UI/UX conventions, design language, and existing component primitives already established in an app.

But that's just the obvious. There are task by task differences (component by component, page by page, context by context) that the model is worse and better at, even though they are all within the general category of UI design.

I honestly don't have the clarity of mind to explain this coherently, but the crux of my point is that there's a huge variation in it's performance in different contexts, often ones that seem near similar, and in result, even Sol can beat Opus 5.5 in some variations of UI design.

And this is my problem in benchmarking and comparing model performance in general. Presently, we try to create broad categories to benchmark against, create a set of tasks, and then average out the results. That works generally, but it's kind of misleading and it's partly what drives people to feel a disconnect between benchmarks numbers and real world usage on their specific tasks.

It's such a messy field that it's kind of maddening.

ariwilson 17 hours ago|||
I had a friend yesterday tell me he likes the way Claude writes and finds it easier to understand compared to Gemini. But he mostly doesn't use Claude for coding. Whereas I find Claude insufferable in writing often and prefer Gemini for writing. But I don't use Gemini for coding.

Familiarity breeds contempt.

KronisLV 15 hours ago||
I used Claude a lot and absolutely hated it: https://blog.kronis.dev/blog/ai-slop-is-a-self-inflicted-tra...

Though to be fair Opus 5.5 is better than Opus 5 was in that regard. I still prefer the OpenAI models to either of them when it comes to regular prose, though.

kingjimmy 17 hours ago||
idk, openai has alot of apple designers and their prototypes
amelius 17 hours ago||
Is that good or bad?
luqtas 17 hours ago||
how biased you are?
throwa356262 17 hours ago||
Looking at their pricing page for China, K3.1 seems to be about 30% cheaper than K3.

--

Model K3.1 Pro K3.1 Pro Highspeed. K3

Input ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00

Output ¥68.00 ¥136.00 ¥100.00

Cache hit ¥1.30 ¥1.30 ¥2.00

Cache write ¥13.00 ¥26.00 ¥20.00

oblio 17 hours ago||
How do their numbers compare with Anthropic and OpenAI?
RussianCow 17 hours ago|||
Extrapolating a bit, Moonshot AI provides Kimi K3 at $15 / $3 / $0.3 per million output/input/cached tokens. A 30% reduction would put K3.1 at roughly $12 / $2.4 / $0.24.

For comparison:

    Sol 6.1:    $10 / $2  / $0.10
    Opus 5.5:   $20 / $4  / $0.20
    Astra 6:    $50 / $10 / $1
    Fable 5.1:  $50 / $10 / $0.25
So Kimi K3.1 Pro would be generally competitive with the latest Sol and Opus models on API pricing. And that's before factoring in third-party providers, some of which serve Kimi K3 for significantly less than Moonshot. For example, inference.net offers K3 for $10.80 / $0.239 / $0.21.

(One caveat: A Claude or GPT subscription still gives you way more value compared to API pricing.)

Exciting times in any case! We really need more direct competition to OpenAI and Anthropic.

---

Edit: As another comment pointed out, official pricing is now available and it's about 2/3 the price of Kimi K3: https://platform.kimi.ai/docs/pricing/chat#model-pricing

pupppet 15 hours ago||
It's too bad Kimi K3.1 Pro cached input is twice the price of Sol 6.1 at 20 cents.
selectodude 17 hours ago||||
Opus 5.5 is about the same price as Kimi K3.1 Pro Highspeed.
polski-g 14 hours ago|||
OpenAI allows you to use serviceTier=flex, dropping their price by 50%.

And not to mention the gargantuan amount of tokens you get with the US labs' subscription plans. I still cannot see a reason to use this as an end consumer.

simondotau 11 hours ago||
Kimi K3 has been my go-to model for its writing style and (prior to Muse Wonder) my go-to for a third opinion during multi-round/multi-agent analysis tasks. Its writing style is IMHO so good that, for code which humans need to review, I regularly got it to clean up the painfully verbose comments left by Opus.

I'm excited to see if its writing style and unique takes have been retained in this new release.

nicolamanzini 11 hours ago||
Kimi K3.1 Pro High is on threejseval if you want the 3D version.

Same Three.js prompts as the rest of the field, blind human votes, ranked by quality and cost. Full set of 16 scenes is live at about $0.19 a scene (about $2.97 for the set).

https://threejseval.com/models/kimi-k3.1-pro-high

brianritz 17 hours ago||
Maybe this was why the “AI trade” was weak this week.
guybedo 15 hours ago||
it gets harder by the day to justify >$1T valuations for OpenAi and Anthropic
jrflo 14 hours ago|
Even with Chinese models this close Moonshot only makes $1B in revenue compared to $60B for Anthropic. Enterprises (where all the real money is) will almost always pick a turnkey solution like Anthropic rather than messing around with running their own open weight setup
Slartie 13 hours ago|||
Nobody has to "run their own setup". Just buy inference from one of the many different open weight inference providers out there. You can use non-chinese ones as well if you don't trust Moonshot AI.

At this point, the only reason why Anthropic has an advantage is laziness on the deciders' side (of which there is a lot) and, for non-coding work, the Claude harness is significantly better than most alternatives. For coding there are several model-agnostic alternatives on par or better than the frontier labs' own offerings. But arguably that is not yet true for office/document work.

staticman2 13 hours ago||||
If you only have to look at revenue to determine the value of a company stock picking must be very easy for you.

Calculate the price to revenue ratio of all companies and select whichever ones have the best ratio.

jrflo 13 hours ago||
Not saying that's the only metric that matters, but if the closed labs are truly threatened by Chinese and/or open weights models the evidence has not showed up in the financials yet
guybedo 14 hours ago||||
i agree with this, "Enterprises will almost always pick a turnkey solution".

For now it's Anthropic. But i don't see how they can maintain this leader position when other companies can provide similar services with models good enough for 90% use cases and at way lower cost.

Anthropic so far is doing a good job building and serving frontier models, they built a nice toolset around it (the web ui, desktop and cli apps ...) but the problem is to justify their IPO price and the huge investments when their moat is so thin

jrflo 14 hours ago||
That's fair, the moat is definitely thin now, but despite that we still haven't seen a mass exodus from enterprise to cheaper models despite ~1 year of these models being actually capable enough to use in a professional setting, their growth numbers remain ridiculous. Whether their moat is inherent bureaucracy in switching, liability, odds that they will remain at the frontier long term, or whatever, it appears to be working (so far).
objektif 14 hours ago|||
I don't think so especially when cost of building software is approaching zero.
WASDx 17 hours ago||
Their benchmark result table is broken in Firefox.
yorwba 16 hours ago||

  document.querySelector("table").style["table-layout"] = "auto";
chalmovsky 15 hours ago||
software is solved what r u talkin bout?
keyle 9 hours ago||
It's on openrouter

https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3.1-pro

I'll wait for the openweight... btw double the price for 67 TPS... Hardly 'nitro'.

KronisLV 15 hours ago|
Wonder whether they're close to Opus because they're routing to it again or what: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49647300

To be fair, there were some arguments to the opposite, but an odd situation to be in anyways: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49654350

npn 14 hours ago|
It is pretty obvious anthropic is lying yet again if you think about it rationally.

Unlike Claude models which always hide the thinking process, Chinese models always show it. So how the heck they can delegate the api call to anthropic and still get the full reasoning? Yes there are tricks to reveal the thinking output, but they are just tricks and do not works reliably. So what would happen when they failed to do it? Cancel the ongoing token generation and revert back to it own model? What about the glitches, the delays, the changes in behavior?

I would understand if the attempts are small in volume, because normally people hardly notice it, but anthropic claims that they happened for millions of calls. Such large numbers would surely get noticed by Chinese users and got reported in the tech forums like linux.do. yet we haven't seen any sight.

smurf9852 14 hours ago|||
They probably took real inputs and served their owned model to the user, while also getting the response from Claude to compare/train
npn 13 hours ago||
It is not simple like that, anthropic claimed that they (Chinese labs) routed the api calls to Claude models to keep the illusion that Chinese models are also capable.

So it is not that the labs call the requests parallely and only return the internal version, but also serve those requests live so they can trick the users that the Chinese models are also great.

Which is very silly considering Chinese models are published to huggingface for everyone to test.

staticman2 14 hours ago|||
I agree we shouldn't believe Anthropic but if you wanted to scam people into thinking they weren't using Claude wouldn't you simply generate synthetic COT?
npn 13 hours ago||
It is technically impossible, considering they need to serve them live and the token generation speed is a hard limitation. Just think about it, since us models hide their CoT, there will be dozens seconds delay before the first output token retuning to the user. And to predict the fake CoT correctly you need to at least read enough output tokens to make it believable. Then you have to hide their own model CoT to generate said synthetic CoT, which mean further delays. Adding up it will be at least 30s or 1m before you first seeing the thinking process.

I don't think nobody would notice such delays, because Chinese models do not need to hide the CoT like US models so usually they start emit text pretty soon

staticman2 13 hours ago||
Wouldn't a delay due to synthetic COT generation look pretty much the same as a delay due to insufficient compute for all customers?
npn 8 hours ago||
Well, that can be a recognizable pattern, too. Just imagine when you vibe code using the Chinese models, it suddenly becomes very slow then the output is drastically improved. It would be hard to not notice it.
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