Posted by rramadass 1 day ago
This is known as a "hidden variable theory". People will tell you that a local (things can only affect their immediate surroundings) version of the theory is impossible because it would be a violation of Bell's inequality, but there is a loophole that requires accepting the idea of "superdeterminism". This is the idea that where what measurement a scientist chooses to measure is predetermined and correlated with what the particle being measured is going to do.
So if a particle lands on a screen according to distribution p when going through a double slit, but with distribution p' when one of the slits is measured at, conventional QM says that the measurement "collapses the wave function". But a superdeterministic local hidden variable theory would imply that the choice of whether to measure at the slit or not was already set in stone at the same time that the particle "decided" which path to take to land on the screen, more or less.
Quantum physics makes predictions that suggest this isn't so. You can design experiments (e.g. A Bell inequality test) in which quantum physics predicts correlations that go beyond what would be possible with some hidden local information attached to the entangled particles that we just don't know about. Experiments don't prove theories to be correct. That's not how science works. However, experimental tests of Bell inequalities have pretty conclusively shown that local hidden variable theories are inadequate to explain what's going on.
Yes, it appears what Einstein called "spooky action at a distance" seems to propagate close to instantly. It's important to appreciate that you can't transmit information this way though. We can only make sense of the quantum correlations after communicating other information at classical speeds. Sometimes you see quantum entanglement devices allowing FTL communication in sci-fi, but that's pure horse hockey.
That all being said, I don't understand quantum physics either.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Action_at_a_distance [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanical_explanations_of_gra...
But isn’t that how EM actually works ?
The photon mediates the electromagnetic force
Blokhinstev's ensemble interpretation, which I like, is unattractive to many.
Quantum Bayesianism (QBism): We need to eliminate the interpretational conundrums that have beset quantum theory. A quantum state should not be thought to offer a description or representation of physical reality – instead it represents the degrees of belief an agent has about the possible outcomes of measurements.
Situation: There are 13 major interpretations of quantum mechanics.
It sounds all superior and mysterious to quote Feynman here, but the fact is many people absolutely do understand quantum mechanics.
It isn't about being superior, mysterious, or clever. The following "nobody understands" type of quips and thought experiments are different ways of saying our intuitions don't help us understand it :
- "God does not play dice with the universe.", Albert Einstein
- "Shut up and calculate", N. David Mermin
- "Schrödinger's cat" being both alive and dead
- various interpretations/analogies explaining quantum physics leading to absurdities or contradictions
Yes, humanity has harnessed quantum mechanics with mathematic frameworks and repeatable experiments to make useful things... but that's a different layer of "understanding" than the deeper levels in the above quotes.
"Nobody understands what gravity is." ... Wait, if nobody "understands" gravity, how did we send people to the moon?!?
Because those are different usages of the word "understand".
Our monkey minds evolved to throw rocks at birds, and our metaphors are based on concepts like position, velocity, and temperature. We added first-level abstractions like energy and cause-and-effect, then built higher level abstractions on those basic concepts.
QM clearly doesn't work like that. It's probabilistic, possibly non-local, possibly subjective, possibly a holographic projection of some underlying reality that is nothing like this one, and its relationship with causality is slippery.
We have a mathematical UI for it, but that's not at all the same thing as understanding the machinery on the other side of the UI.
Many people of course, Feynman obviously included, understand the theory in the sense of knowing how to correctly apply it to make predictions.
Nobody takes this to mean that classical physics is generally incomprehensible.
We can build black boxes and exploit the behavior of what we see.
But we can’t always go to deeper and deeper layers of understanding.
QM is not a black boxes we built but one could perhaps say it’s a black box that we see.
For QM the main issue is that we are barely able to see results of that black box and have to make guesses even about observable results, because what we see is result of particle long gone and the result has been a mess of paths that it took. And basically we are operating at identifying single particle, while clearly the path that particle took was defined by other particles and "gravity"? from interacting with other particles bumping it around. I'm even less knowledgeable when it comes to QM terminology, but I get impression that most of the commenters here simply are parroting things they have read or being taught without actually trying to understand and taking into account all the unresolved problems in QM, which is why so many of them sounds so confident is my guess. Because knowing limitations of my brain I would be not so confident of anything, only because of massive load of unresolved issues that QM has.
Also billions of people understand how to operate mobile phones, but "understanding how they operate" would be rather stretch and even the biggest specialists of QM have understanding only on how to interpret end results in QM - at best and that is basically it.
Quite frankly, I'm confused about these bold statements. I assume there seems to be some knowledge background of what you are saying - it very much reminds me what stupid strawman arguments I had in high school with my schoolmates then as a part of learning process, but rather far from actual wisdom.
Anyway, I prefer LEDs as an example.
Ancient humans could build boats 5000 years ago and expand throughout the planet, but they didn't know about water being made up of hydrogen+oxygen, or the tides being caused by the moon, etc.
Their calculations served them on the layer they operated on.
Mostly because people around the mediterranean sea didn't have to care, tides being so small there. Yet the Greek had fairly advanced models of tide schedules.
Pretty sure peoples that were experiencing bigger tides and depended on it e.g for fishing figured out the relationship with the moon pretty quickly, whatever esoteric reason they may have plastered upon it.
It doesn't. It's model. All models are wrong (including quantum mechanics and attention) but some are useful. You understand the domain of the model, the problems it can solve, the math behind the models and use the model to make predictions. If you are competent at linear algebra and functional analysis, you can do quantum mechanics.
If you make the error of believing that quantum mechanics is ontological god's honest truth of nature, you will end up with blunders like using it to explain consciousness like Prof Penrose. His math was impeccable, but he was making a category error.
Models are simplifications/approximations made on purpose, as in "I know this is wrong on some level, but it's close enough for my use case", or "this makes the maths solvable".
> Quantum physics is a theory, as in "as far as we can tell, this is an exact mathematical description of the world".
Is it?
If by "mathematical exactness" you merely mean we have somehow been able to produce some numbers that later on we measured in experiments, then yes. (Though we haven't been able to produce such numbers in all cases, see e.g. [0].)
I my book, though, mathematical exactness means your model is mathematically consistent and is applied with the necessary mathematical rigor.
Quantum mechanics and quantum field theory, as they are commonly taught in universities, are everything but. They are a bunch of concepts and recipes that, albeit successful, are held together loosely with duct tape and lots of hand waving to make you ignore the logical gaps & jumps and the fact that many of the "mathematical" objects physicists refer to don't even exist[1]!
[0]: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/this-simple-exper...
[1]: Haag's Theorem, Aizenman–Fröhlich Triviality Theorem, etc.
What a theory is, is more like a model (or maybe meta-model) with a particularly broad scope or high explanatory value, often a mathematical framework that gives a common foundation and theoretical justification for multiple experimentally-derived models.
Quantum electrodynamics is a quantum theory. Quantum chromodynamics is a quantum theory. String theory is a quantum theory. I'm sure there is a correct quantum theory of gravity - we just don't know what it is yet.
... which "we think" is functioning that way not to mention that theory itself might be wrong and be replaced as most of the supporters of quantum theory doesn't seem to look on it as something that explain mechanics of it, but rather how magic of "unexplainable" quantum mechanics works.
Heck your descriptions of a model is also what we would call an effective theory (i.e. a description valid for a specific range of parameters/scale).
I don't think there's a commonly agreed difference between model and theory and I sure have heard many physicists use them interchangeably when it suits them (and I'm guilty of it myself). Perhaps theory feels 'wider', as in quantum theory encompasses models for many quantum systems, but that's as far as I'd go.
> [...] when people thought the Earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the Earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the Earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the Earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together.
> All models are wrong
That famous quote could use attribution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_models_are_wrong
> If you make the error of believing that quantum mechanics is ontological god’s honest truth of nature
This is why science & experiment exists. The author holds no such belief, and the paper makes that very clear. That is what he actually meant by “I Don’t Understand Quantum Physics”. Jump to the very last section, “Is Quantum Theory Correct and Complete?” He’s pointing out the confusing and contradictory nature of the model so far, and saying that Quantum is incomplete and needs work. He is not making any category error.
It could, but doesn't need it.
That models are not direct truth is just logical. If there were such a thing that were indistinguishable from the direct truth, it would be the direct truth, not some other thing called a model.
This is why I've never understood the "revalatory" nature of Godel's incompleteness. Of course any axiomatic system must not contain all truths. Axiomatic systems are models and models can't contain all truth. If an axiomatic system contained all truth it would just be all truth rather than some other thing called an axiomatic system.
The only case in which Godel's argument surprises is the case in which one has a fundamental misunderstanding of what a model can and cannot be, which I suppose must have been more common in his time, but I was really confused when my highschool teacher went to great lengths to explain that a model cannot contain the whole truth because...of course it can't?
If obvious, can you prove it without reading Gödel’s proof or anyone else’s?
The important (2nd) part of Gödel’s proof is not that a model can’t contain all truth, it’s that a model cannot prove itself true, which is a far stronger statement than the intuition you describe. Of course, belief that your own intuition is independent of history is also highly questionable; you were raised and educated in an environment in which people were already aware of Gödel. It’s like saying the number zero is obvious (which it is now) despite the fact that it took thousands of years before it was used formally as a number. There was a time when it wasn’t obvious to the smartest people alive.
Note that formal axiomatic systems aren’t physical systems; what Gödel was talking about and what George Box was talking about are related but somewhat different concepts. It is obvious in physics that a parabolic ballistic trajectory model doesn’t account for air turbulence. It’s not at all obvious that all of math itself is guaranteed to produce contradictions and cannot prove itself, especially if you’re allowed to change math or use any system you want.
I also think you can be a realist without having to make the jump to ontological irreducibility. You can say that our latest theory is a better approximation than the previous one and the previous one was an approximation as well.
Penrose has fallen into the same logical fallacy that many older, retired theoretical physicists have (notable einstein?).
Sure, but what if you don’t understand the model?
Quantum mechanics is a framework for how theories are built, not a specific theory, and it's really all or nothing. There's not much between the quantum and classical ways of viewing the world.
But it just turns out that there's a limit in which the quantum world looks approximately classical.
But as a physicist I have no illusion that any of our theories are actually true. They are all models that help us making sense of an unimaginably complex universe.
0. Special Relativity is already baked into the Standard Model, which is a quantum theory. It's General Relativity that causes problems.
what about gravity? If we don't know the correct account of that, how can we know those are exactly correct?
So we really are stuck with quantum mechanics, and there must be a quantum theory of gravity. In fact, there are actually quantum theories of gravity (including String Theory), but we don't know whether they're the correct theory that describes our universe.
...unless I have understood it otherwise, but quantum mechanics is still an approximation of things we simply are unable to measure individually - mostly because of speed and have to resort to guessing that approximation of that limited time period, which is still too long. It would be the same as trying to guess position of a ship during voyage across the ocean and taking the smallest measurable time period as 100 years, in which the ship has been already sunk out of existence, while smaller time period would have given us better picture and quantum mechanics that we are able to use has exactly that issue - we are unable to measure and record particles at smaller time intervals. At best we can see trajectories of particles long gone.
Also, this book is not agreeing with your statement, to me which sounds like Religion(because you have no explanation at all!) and should not be part of Science.
He also wrote another similar popular article on Relativity, I DO Understand Relativity - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50220891
With article titles like these, i just had to share it on HN!
Somebody should work on the above two webpages to make them more readable with html+pdf formats. That would make these more accessible to the "interested layman".
The author also wrote a sequel; I DO Understand Relativity - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50220891
Tl;dr spacetime does not exist as a global background where things are "placed", it is not ontic. "Things" are first, and spacetime is derived from interaction statistics of "things". This eliminates nearly all naive paradoxes like double slit etc. Now, these "things" are somewhat complicated and non-intuitive (e.g. there are no individual "particles", they are a limit of discrete distributions), but that's a good start.
My theory: The reason we perceive collapse as irreversible is because the computational complexity of reversing the equations is very high. Especially as the state converges towards an eigenvalue of the measurement operator, it becomes more difficult to reverse. This is similar to how a hash function is reversible in principle but not practice. My two cents.
Many worlds and such are just pseudo religious nonsense.
1) Disregard many worlds as a purely remaining mathematical outcome of bounded probability rather than discrete reality. (No 1 thing exists just 1ish things but ultimately that doesn’t mean there are many versions of any give 1)
2) just accept you can’t find the “stuff” of reality. You simply measure increasingly small probability domains which interact with other probability domains
3) time is the sequential working out of probability of anything existing and other things that might exist co defining themselves.
4) space is just the interaction of these probabilities working themselves out into a stable projection.