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Posted by bschne 7 hours ago

CNC Stone Carving(carmelitegothic.com)
348 points | 109 comments
wolframhempel 6 hours ago|
Before anyone complains that this removes the human aspect of art, it's worth stressing that sculptors have always looked for ways to automate work and save time (as the website itself points out).

As far back as ancient Egypt, grids and measuring tools were used to reproduce figures at different scales. Roman workshops churned out copies of Greek statues in marble and bronze, using casts and moulds. From the 18th century onwards, sculptors used outright pointing machines to transfer models into marble. James Watt, the steam engine guy, even built a mechanical sculpture-copying machine that could (somewhat) automatically reproduce reliefs and medallions.

Gothic architectural decoration wasn't about expressing the inner world of its makers in the way we think of art today. Much of it was produced by large masonry workshops using standardized geometry, wooden templates and repeated designs.

So, yeah, using a CNC machine is truly Gothic.

radiorental 5 hours ago||
Understood and agreed, they need to construct or repair buildings efficiently...

However there is the concept of 'the resistance of the material' where the act of working with the material with bare hands and simple tools is a meditative process. Something I would have thought applicable to the contemplative and monastical life of a monk.

There's a fascinating article from BBC 4 on the topic https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0000xqt

1-more 5 hours ago|||
They address this in a roundabout way in the article:

> Ornate pieces that used to take months for a skilled carver, now can be accomplished in a matter of days. Instead of cutting out the beauty, using the excuse that it takes too long, thus doesn’t fit into the budget, modern technology can be used to make true Gothic in all its beauty a reality again today.

The options are either use the best tool for the job, or don't do the job at all because the budget (time or monetary I'm not sure) is not there.

wolframhempel 4 hours ago||||
Sure - but if you take especially late Gothic cathedrals like Milan's, there's 3400 Statues and 135 spires, decorated with almost 100.000 Crockets (the decorative elements on the steeple roofs). I feel these things are more mass production than meditative process...
noosphr 3 hours ago||||
They still do, it's just that the first 95% of carving things out of rock is literally getting the rock into the shape needed to start doing actual scuplting.

I'm short, it's artistic boilerate with no meaningful value to either the artist or the viewer.

knicholes 5 hours ago||||
I don't see any reason that someone couldn't still enjoy working with the material with bare hands and simple tools to meditate, even with the automated stone carving. People still play chess even though AI dominates.
wduquette 5 hours ago||
Who's to say they don't? I'd guess the monks are using CNC for standard elements, while statuary is done by hand. (Though possibly not by the monks.)
ghm2199 30 minutes ago|||
100% with you on effort reduction. I was making closets at home and was doing pilot holes for attaching the back 1/4" plywood. I calculated I had to do 50 odd holes for all of them. Then i discovered the brad stapler gun(all electric) and I was done in 5 mins what would have taken an hour to get right with a jig.

Wood working projects get out of hand when you add a small feature. I cannot imaging what would happen if you had to do this with stone carving!

mgr86 4 hours ago|||
I have a fascination with hobos and freight train riders and watch a fair amount of videos on Youtube about it. One of hobo had a RAG he would query about train yards and catchout points. Wasn't a full timer, but built it last spring I gathered. Not art exactly, but a similar idea. Humans like shortcuts.
taion 5 hours ago|||
One small correction/addition! While the pointing machine is 18th century, the practice of pointing itself is quite a lot older. Its precursor was the three-compass method, which was known in antiquity and recovered in the 15th century. In fact, if you look closely at Michelangelo's David, you can see the little holes on the marble used for pointing.

That said, actual Gothic sculpture and decoration fell into that gap when pointing was lost. And the frankly lower quality of most medieval sculpture more or less reflects that. And anyway, nothing wrong with neo-Gothic.

RobotToaster 6 hours ago|||
What's more gothic than dark satanic mills
contingencies 36 minutes ago|||
I think they moved them to Canary Wharf and covered them in glass.
lucaslazarus 5 hours ago|||
You are getting downvoted because the largely American audience here doesn’t get the reference: https://oxfordsong.org/song/jerusalem
tim333 3 hours ago||
There doesn't seem much mention of gothic in that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/And_did_those_feet_in_ancient_...
ninalanyon 39 minutes ago||
One of the interpretations of the poem is that it criticises organised religion and that the mills in question are the church as an organisation represented in concrete terms by the church buildings.
drummojg 4 hours ago||
For example, Rodin had it figured out. He just hired more sculptors!
soci 5 hours ago||
Worth noting that the stonemasons of Sagrada Familia (the catholic basilica Barcelona) have been using CNC to carve it's stones since early 1990s. Most Barcelonians thought they would never see the temple finished in their lifetimes, myself included. Part of the progress that made its completion possible this year is thanks to this technology improving over time.

EDIT: Actually, it’s a mix of CNC roughing to shape the stone, followed by manual finishing. According to the Sagrada Família’s website, this allows each stone to remain a unique piece of craftsmanship while significantly speeding up the process.

1-more 4 hours ago||
What's kind of funny about CNC is there is a wood working tool that is the opposite of what you just mentioned. The Shaper Origin is a CNC router where the gross movements of the router are provided by the human operator's hands moving the thing, and the fine movements of the cutting head inside the router body are provided by XYZ positioning of the cutting head reacting to the machine's position over the workpiece using optical tracking. So you can get precision and an expansive work range, with a small footprint of the tool.
jdboyd 14 minutes ago||
I think that is more for space/budget reasons than really being a preferred way to work. One thing is handy for is being able to carve something in place though. I saw someone use it to do inlays in the middle of a large plank tabletop that would have required a truly huge CNC machine to be able to hold the plank.
lefstathiou 5 hours ago||
Didn't know that. This is what most excites me about the technology. Building beautiful and well crafted things historically has been extremely expensive. There is an Italian company I follow on X that specializes in CNC sculpting of Renaissance quality marble statues. Would love to see more bronze and marble statues around town celebrating society's heroes and heroines.
arjie 4 hours ago|||
Monumental and Robotor do this

E.g. https://x.com/Monumental_Labs/status/2102775795689419214?a=x...

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/robot-role-marble-art-sculpting...

tim333 3 hours ago||||
It's one of the things I think may be cool with AI robots when they get good at those. You should be able to build all sorts of fancy things.
throwaway2037 4 hours ago|||
Nerd Catnip Alert! Can you share the X.com account that "specializes in CNC sculpting of Renaissance quality marble statues"?
shellfishgene 6 hours ago||
Wow, the monks are not messing around either, they built a full monastery with cathedral and all in gothic style! https://newmountcarmelfoundation.org/building-a-mountain-mon...
ricardobeat 5 hours ago||
I love this story. They started roasting coffee and saving money for nearly a decade, until they could buy land in the mountains, and then set out to build a medieval monastery entirely in stone and developing the CNC machining. It's amazing what people can do when they have a goal.
weirdish 6 hours ago||
I've always wondered why we haven't seen a broad architectural movement returning to highly ornate decorative facades now that technology has made this kind of thing (more) possible. We could be having so much more fun in architecture right now!
Brendinooo 4 hours ago||
Perhaps this is because I've let Twitter radicalize me on this particular subject, but it seems like modern architecture is totally ideologically captured to be against this stuff.

There's this insistence that forms have to be "honest", so ornamental facades are out. Any attempt to revive a form is called "pastiche" (except modernist, which...uh, has been around for awhile now!). People always insist on "deconstruction" and "contrast" so they can never just build a rowhouse that looks like the other rowhouses. Etc.

There's study after study that shows that regular people are way more inclined to let things get built if it just looks good, and when people are presented with choices they'll basically always pick the classic-looking building. And yet we never seem to get them.

The more charitable read is that cost is part of the equation and people don't want to pay it, but that's 100% not the whole story. (Another part of the story is that people who buy the plans care the most about internal space with tons of light coming in, which probably drives a bunch of decisions on the outside.)

uriegas 1 hour ago|||
The arts have always been influenced by the philosophy of their time.

However, there is a divide between vernacular and classical architecture. Vernacular is utilitarian and it is what most people build (you build your house to serve your needs) while classical is not only utilitarian but also communicates a message (authority in gov. buildings).

Most people find vernacular architecture pretty. For example, Florence, San Miguel de Allende, New Orleans, etc. All of them have different architecture caused by the locally available materials and the weather of the place. Contrary to popular belief most of their 'beauty' doesn't come from an old appreciation of the arts people, instead these buildings only met the needs with what was available and worked best.

For example, in the north of Mexico houses were built with thick limestone ('sillar de caliche'). The thickness helped as insulation (hot weather). The limestone was plastered with 'cal' in a light color with an 'aborregado' finish that helped reflect the sunlight thus keeping the house cooler. The houses were tall because hot air rises, windows looked almost like doors because people opened them during the night to let the air in. The buildings are beautiful but they are extremely utilitarian. Nowadays most houses in Mexico are built with cement and rebar, which is ugly.

The architect Leon Krier made the argument that all of this was a 20th century phenomenon caused by industrialization and fossil fuel dependency, which has not only affected buildings but how cities get built (urban planning). He believed this would end once fossil fuels reservoirs decreased.

LinuxAmbulance 2 hours ago||||
Modern architecture ideology is hilarious from an outsider's perspective.

But modern architecture being bland and non-decorative? You can lay the majority of the blame for that on building owners.

My partner works for a building engineering firm that is hired by architects and building owners, and we both are not fond of modern architectural trends and have discussed it at length.

In short, buildings have two scenarios - one, the person or company paying for the building plans on keeping it over the next decade plus, or two, the buyer plans on flipping the building as soon as possible.

In the first case, and extremely so in the second, buyers are entirely without taste and despise spending any money that they don't absolutely have to. The desire to min/max buildings has led to function over form to the point of nearly ignoring form.

"Cheap" is the top priority, followed closely by "inoffensive to the people we want to rent this to / flip this to". This results in cheap, low effort facades and an absolute minimum of permanent decorative elements.

Buildings are seen as short term (10 years or less) consumable items, and nothing endures long enough to make it seem worthwhile to buyers to put any money towards design excellence.

munificent 3 hours ago||||
My cynical take is that architecture has been fully captured by the wealthy elite.

The elites like things the masses dislike as a way to signal their social distances from the masses. By designing a building that conforms to their elite taste at the expense of nearly everyone else who has to look at the thing, it reinforces their power and control over the space.

It's the moral equivalent of buying a beachfront property and blasting noise every morning from a giant PA system just so that everyone trying to just relax on the beach knows who is really in charge.

vinaigrette 2 hours ago||
The whole point of architects from the get-go is to have somebody design something different from what the masses have !
vinaigrette 2 hours ago|||
A friend of mine wrote about neo-pastiche in Plessis-Robinson, France in Archiscopie magazine. He showed me very impressive images of styrofoam shaped as greek, roman and hausmannian elements sprayed with a cheap render slapped on a concrete building that end up gentrifying neighborhoods. Perhaps a low quality, poorly performing, ecologically irresponsible building is what you want ? I'd rather be paying for what I consider important for a building (longevity, ecology and thermal efficiency) than some esthetical addendum.

In the end, the construction industry is really a deciding factor : you only see, as a classic survivorship bias phenomena, what the best building with all the money in the world looked like, ie cathedrals, palaces, and expect every building to have the same standard today. It is not realistic, nor responsible. Cheap building for the masses have always been the norm!

Brendinooo 1 hour ago||
>Perhaps a low quality, poorly performing, ecologically irresponsible building is what you want ?

I would call this a false dilemma. There are a bunch of examples in Manhattan of beautiful facades that are extremely ornate but are painted cast iron. It does not have to be styrofoam.

>I'd rather be paying for what I consider important for a building (longevity, ecology and thermal efficiency) than some esthetical addendum

First of all, I'm not even sure that modern buildings achieve these goals.

Like you are saying, you are speaking of cheap buildings for the masses. And a sibling comment talks about how people only look at the bottom line. If a building is beautiful, it is loved; if it is loved, it is more likely to remain. And a building that remains is best for ecology.

And also, buildings are not just for the owners, they are public works, and should be designed as such. An "esthetical addendum" is not mere vanity, it is an important contributor to quality of life in a city.

toddmorey 6 hours ago|||
This has been my hope for a while! I live in a 1911 house and the amount of small detail everywhere would be impossibly expensive by modern construction standards. I also like modern minimalism, but I know many of the drywall corners everywhere in modern homes aren't design decisions as much as cost savings measures.
bluGill 5 hours ago|||
We can, but will you pay for it? The standard house building a house is cheap - some of those decorations would increase the costs by as much as double - but they won't increase the value of the house.

I have a rule of thumb that seems to hold: until you get to about 3500 sq feet in a house people will choose larger over decorations where possible. Larger than that and you don't want to clean the house yourself (that is unless your wealth supports regular professional cleaning you won't go much larger). Of course as a rule of thumb it isn't a hard rule, some people want more space, others can live with less. As houses get larger people are willing for more decoration cost.

For apartments it is worse - renters rarely will pay extra to live in a nice building.

anon291 4 hours ago||
> but they won't increase the value of the house.

But they will make your life better.

bluGill 4 hours ago||
Will they? That is arguable at best. I've tore a lot of things out of my house because they were stupid dust collectors that made my life worse.
anon291 3 hours ago||
Yes. Aesthetic things are good for the soul in subtle ways. It's like making a split pea soup without a bay leaf. You wouldn't be able to figure it out, but you know something is missing and it makes most people sad even if they can't identify it.
_Microft 6 hours ago|||
This might have influenced too many people?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ornament_and_Crime

nnnnico 5 hours ago|||
If history has shown something is that minimalism always wins (don't confuse minimalism with the horrible/cheap building and design practices that are norm today)
lo_zamoyski 5 hours ago||
That's not true at all. You can clearly see vacillation between more elaborate and simpler architectural forms throughout history.

This just sounds like some whiggish defense of modernism.

nnnnico 4 hours ago||
you are right, i should have said simplicity and not minimalism (mostly in science and religion), oscillation/ movement and counter movement is always there in different formsthough
NoImmatureAdHom 5 hours ago|||
I think a good theory is:

Up until the late 1800s, beauty was expensive. Therefore, it was a costly (i.e., believable) signal of wealth, status, and taste. In the late 1800s and early 1900s, modern manufacturing got going and made beauty cheap. The ornate wrought iron door that took some workman hundreds of hours to produce was a good signal. Now, a cast simulacrum can be made at scale and ordinary people can have beautiful doors.

This led the tastemaker art and architecture elite to start playing a kind of inside baseball where what's "beautiful" isn't beautiful in some objective sense, or to ordinary people, it's just what's trendy within their clique at a given time.

(and, to head you off at the pass: you may like brutalism or Obama's library, but the data clearly show that regular people do not)

See Tom Wolfe's excellent From Bauhaus to Our House: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Bauhaus_to_Our_House

Also this ACX discussion (it's a few posts) is really good: https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-from-bauhaus-to... https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/contra-everyone-on-taste https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/three-model-organisms-for-t...

We should really do something about this. Buildings affect everyone around them, and we should force people designing them to make buildings that regular people find beautiful.

These people are trying: https://www.humanise.org/

PaulDavisThe1st 4 hours ago||
I like this general hypothesis, but dislike this formulation:

> This led the tastemaker art and architecture elite to start playing a kind of inside baseball where what's "beautiful" isn't beautiful in some objective sense, or to ordinary people, it's just what's trendy within their clique at a given time.

I don't find "gothic" design beautiful though I can recognize the skill and devotion it represents; I do love shaker and bauhaus and scandi design. There is no "objective sense" when it comes to beauty.

I think you could rephrase this as "where what's beautiful is no longer determined by the amount of skill and effort to construct it", which I think is also true but also more meaningful and much more accomodating to the range of actual "ordinary people's" tastes ...

NoImmatureAdHom 4 hours ago||
You're right, I was imprecise.

However, while you may be correct that the range of opinions among "regular people" encompasses people who like Bauhaus or brutalism, it is important to acknowledge that such people are the minority (and, fair to add "by far" in most settings).

https://www.civicart.org/americans-preferred-architecture-fo... https://www.researchgate.net/publication/249624309_Physical_... https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S026427512...

etc. etc. etc...

gosub100 4 hours ago|||
After seeing the real thing in a museum, I would love to have an Egyptian relief replica on the inside wall of my house. No sarcasm, I think it would be badass.
VoodooJuJu 5 hours ago||
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vessenes 7 hours ago||
Oooh this is cool. Create gothic-esque designs in stone construction using CNC. I like the apology right at the top: "medieval builders were always on the forefront of technology". Word.
nrh 7 hours ago||
Anyone who digs this should take a look at the art (and process) of Barry X Ball. https://www.barryxball.com/ https://www.instagram.com/barryxballstudio/
idbnstra 6 hours ago|
or monumental labs
throwaway2037 4 hours ago||
I would to love to learn more about the metals used in their drill bits. I think about oil/gas drilling and tunnel boring machines. They are facing some of the harshest conditions possible. (Imagine a tunnel boring machine trying to carve through granite rock in Manhattan or Swiss Alps. It is tough!) These CNC machines are doing similar on a "micro-scale". How often do they need to sharpen or replace these drill bits? And what is the cost?
clarkmoody 3 hours ago||
Monumental Labs[0] takes a mixed approach to autonomy and human craftsmanship. For fine detail pieces like marble sculpture, the robot takes the project from stone block to a rough, 3D printed look. Then a human craftsman does fine work and polishing. For something like a plinth on a stone structure, the robot's output is good enough since the piece will only ever be viewed from afar (e.g. street level for a balcony).

[0]: https://www.monumentallabs.co/

azan_ 3 hours ago|
Man, I really hope that eventually this technology will allow us to build beautiful housing again.
yendor44 7 hours ago|
This is the same group of monks that run mystic monk coffee. I'm very fond of the Paradiso blend and am currently warming up to the thanksgiving blend though it wasn't my favorite at the start of the bag.
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