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Posted by ibobev 20 hours ago

LLM Voice(martinfowler.com)
480 points | 254 commentspage 3
abootstrapper 17 hours ago|
I’ve started embracing my grammar flaws and typos. Emails and chats may get a proof, but only from me or another human, then I send it. I’ve deleted Grammarly because I think the flaws make the comms more authentic in the age of AI.

And of course I’ve dropped my use of the em-dash after being accused of being AI myself.

Cthulhu_ 1 hour ago||
Part of me wants a pure writing device, something that is dedicated to writing and / or maintaining a blog. They exist, but they're a bit expensive for what they are and they don't look very ergonomic. May need to build a Linux boot for a raspberry pi or something.
henrymerrilees 16 hours ago||
I'm hanging on to the typewriter em-dash. They'll never take it away from me!
wffurr 15 hours ago||
Ever since I learned it's as simple as option-hyphen on a Mac, I've loved the em-dash. Still don't have the hang of typing it on a Chromebook or Windows PC though.
hughdbrown 4 hours ago||
Sentence paragraphs are the biggest clue for me. I hate them. They eviscerate any structure or connection that might flow through the text. No ideas are related any longer. They just splat down on the page like a new isolated collection of words that the reader must struggle to join into a fully formed thought. It's too much; I give up when I see those posts.
aanet 11 hours ago||
I agree with the author, and I like how his (human) voice comes through loud and clear in this post.

I also find LLM-voices extremely jarring, boring, and dense. And very, umm, mechanical, if you will.

But I want to make an observation.

Folks are not-Ok reading the LLM’s output for prose.

But folks are completely Ok, even downright blind, to accepting LLM-output of code.

I see that dichotomy everywhere.

LLM-driven code: great, valuable, all-ok LLM-driven prose: not ok

Understood completely that the audience for consumption is two completely different entities (machines vs humans) but something about this doesn’t sit right with me.

More particularly: if we don’t prefer LLM-prose, why should we prefer LLM-code ??

Anybody else feels that ??

tartoran 9 hours ago||
This will matter more when code quality starts to matter. Lately it hasn't. I hope it does at some point and LLMs could help there too if we only cared about this metric. And lastly, people need to remain the loop.
rmunn 3 hours ago||
One of the main differences is that LLM-generated code can be tested. You can prove that it does what it's supposed to do — and if it fails the tests, you can tell the model to go back and fix it. So there's an objective criterion that can say "this is acceptable" vs "this is unacceptable". Now, it does rely on your tests being good, and not everyone has written those good tests. But it exists.

There are no objective criteria that can say "this text is good" or "this text is bad". Sure, spelling and grammar errors... but we're talking about writing style, "voice", and whether the text is easy for humans to read.

Now, there are plenty of problems with LLM-generated code that can't be solved by having good tests. Is it maintainable? Is it written in good coding style? Those are harder to quantify. But since LLMs are such good mimics, if you tell an LLM to add code to your existing project, then it's usually going to do a decent job of matching your coding style. The question of maintainability still rears its head; my personal experience is that the smaller the chunk of code the LLM generated for me, the more likely it is I can understand it fully and therefore maintain it in the future. An entire vibe-coded project? Good luck maintaining that. A 100-line class with five 20-line methods with names that make sense? Yeah, I can take that and maintain it in the future, even if the LLM tool goes away.

But mostly, the difference between the acceptance of LLM text or of LLM code, IMHO, boils down to "are there objective measures that I can use to accept this"? Code has to work, which is a much higher bar than text (which just has to have correct spelling and grammar), and therefore it's easier to get the LLM to spit out decent-ish code than decent-ish text.

yawnxyz 18 hours ago||
> As more people delegate writing to LLMs they will also delegate thinking and comprehension to LLMs. I don't want to do that, where's the fun of writing then?

I enjoy cooking from scratch, and I really don't like frozen foods, microwave/TV dinners, or even DoorDashing

but we're past complaining/arguing/shaming folks who don't cook every meal from scratch

you know what, I don't prefer eating it, but if my next door neighbor loves microwaving frozen $3 burritos, then go ahead

to some people, food is art, creativity, life to others, food is fuel

also applies to writing and thinking

theshrike79 17 hours ago||
Analogy: it’s fine to write stories for yourself mad libs style with AI

It’s not ok to write stories with AI and post them for others to read claiming “I did that”

Get the difference?

emidoots 17 hours ago|||
Something like 90% of food in all US restaurants is from Sysco, US Foods, or similar.

Some of them purchase ingredients from those companies, and then make the food using those ingredients.

A great deal of restaurants, though, simply purchase pre-made frozen foods from those distributors, re-heat, and sell it to you at a premium without disclosing while you think it was freshly made. Mac & cheese, stuffed peppers, lasagna, burritos, most 'bar snacks' you can think of, etc.

otherjason 16 hours ago|||
The analogy here is that a lot of consumers recognize those restaurants that are simply reselling pre-made food without much value-add, and choose not to eat there.
0c3ca83 16 hours ago||||
Yes, there are a lot of bad restaurants in the USA, and it's definitely not a good idea to eat there if you can avoid it.
fyredge 3 hours ago||||
The difference, I think, is that food costs money, but articles are essentially free. Human must eat, and we will eat what we can afford while making a decision based on the best value available. Articles are a luxury, so we become picky.

I single out articles because I know many people consume AI video slop when they are tired and just want to disengage, like eating junk food.

yawnxyz 15 hours ago|||
yeah i love this comparison- that's why i avoid places that are clearly sysco wrappers (or massive chains that are just wrappers around their own supply chain)

basically any food establishment that has "supply chain operation" is slop to me; I guess it's similar to my distaste in reading AI slop too

I don't fault ppl for going (and enjoying) those too- Chili's can be enjoyable after a few beers

efskap 10 hours ago||
How do you recognize sysco wrappers? Any particular signs to look out for? I guess the big one is a mismatch between the size of the menu and the size of the kitchen.
nisegami 17 hours ago||||
Yes, I like the phrase "you can't expect someone to put the time and effort in to read/etc what you didn't put the time or effort in to write/etc".
a4isms 17 hours ago||
ai;dr
yawnxyz 15 hours ago|||
yes yes definitely, restaurants should not be microwaving food for paying customers (ok if some components are) but like... not serve a completely microwaved dish

happened to me once lol, will never forget that place ever again (blech)

erikgaas 17 hours ago|||
I think the idea is if you are going to share LLM writing then why not just share the prompt which is shorter and has the message you want to convey anyway.

That is not to say that I don't think there is a place for LLM assisted writing. Writing is an exercise for the author and translates to oral argumentation so I don't think that fades away. But LLMs could do some "audience normalization". What if I could make a blogpost that is dynamic based on experience of the reader? There are lots of opportunities, but versus other fields where optimizing for laziness can be beneficial I don't think lazy writing currently has much value add.

Vaushite 44 seconds ago||
If you posted the literal text like "write me an essay convincing the reader that C++ is better than Rust" you wouldn't get much readership.
jbvlkt 17 hours ago|||
This analogy looks quite good. Heavily processed food is not heathy for your body and heavy use of AI and other dopamine shortcuts like social media are not healthy for your brain. You have to approach both with causion.
Rapzid 16 hours ago|||
Sure, let's do food analogy..

It's your turn to host supper club this week and you serve frozen diners on your nice tableware.

acedTrex 16 hours ago||
These people have lost the ability to even consider second order effects of anything. They've outsourced everything.
monkeydust 17 hours ago|||
Largely speaking eating is an activity that only involves yourself. Whereas, writing and thinking are largely activities to communicate ideas between yourself and others. Basically it matters more how this is done.
0c3ca83 16 hours ago|||
To stick with that analogy, you also wouldn't serve a tv dinner to a guest unless you were somehow incapacitated. You certainly wouldn't do it if you were running a restaurant.

Add to that the fact that AI is significantly worse for you than TV dinners, and has an outsized harm to humanity, and the conclusion is plain:

AI should not be imposed on others.

punty 17 hours ago|||
But isn't one problem here that it's not just personal consumption? People bemoan the proliferation of food-service (Sysco et al) "slop" at restaurants. It seems like LLM writing for others is serving that $3 burrito for $15 without even trying to doctor it up. If you're not willing to put in the effort to think about and produce your writing it's probably best to keep it for personal consumption.
cush 17 hours ago||
There’s also an entire cohort who didn’t have the time to write that now do. They have some incredible, unrelated skill and can’t afford to hire a writer but need some writing done.

When I come across their slop I need to remind myself to let it go, else I’ll miss out enjoying the food from that Abuela who’s been cooking longer than I’ve been alive

latexr 16 hours ago|||
I’m fine with my neighbour eating TV dinners, but if they invite me for a meal I expect to not be served a TV dinner, or to at a minimum be informed beforehand that that’s what going to be served.

Same thing with LLM-assisted writing. It’s one thing to do it for yourself, quite another to share it with other folks without warning.

stephen_cagle 16 hours ago|||
I agree. I honestly think convenient food is perfectly fine for people most of the time. Recently I have been playing with "eternal stews" which I guess are logically the opposite of fast foods, but at the same time are focused on availability and convenience over intentionality and mastery (at least the way I make them).

Most food is literally just fuel. I think that is fine. And at some level, eating 3$ burritos for a quick lunch on the daily really makes you appreciate the depths of a home made risotto even more. :]

dominotw 17 hours ago|||
> to some people, food is art, creativity, life to others, food is fuel

right. he is talking about the first group. where did you get the 'shame' part?

I like your analogy. Microwaved empty calories perfectly describes llm output. You are going to pay the price sooner or later.

tempfile 17 hours ago|||
Probably he should have actually said "what's the point of writing then?", because there isn't one. Just like food is fuel, writing is thinking.
nenjduddh 17 hours ago|||
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nater5000 17 hours ago||
Even more importantly: it's not an either/or situation.

You can love to cook and enjoy every second of it, but sometimes you just need fuel and that $3 microwave burrito is sufficient. Just the same, 99% of your means could be frozen TV dinners, but that doesn't mean cooking a romantic meal for Valentine's Day is off the table.

There's a weird level of fear mongering occurring around AI that it will make you incapable of independent thought if you use it. People will throw around very light research that kind of points in that direction, but they'll never highlight any of the nuances in such an argument. You can use AI and still "think" if you choose to, just like how you can avoid AI and still opt out of "thinking" if you choose to. It has less to do with AI and more to do with the context of the individual using AI.

cush 17 hours ago||
I think what Martin is hitting on in the article is though is that as more and more of the world’s communication is generated by LLMs we’re naturally going to adopt LLM-Voice into our own communication style. It is just as much about consumption, which is less in your control.
droidjj 13 hours ago||
Late to this party, but wanted to share my favorite piece of writing about how annoying AI-generated prose it to read: https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.med.612....
lhk931122 10 hours ago||
I do document work, and at home I even do image work as a hobby, and all of it has that "AI feel". So I always do the work and then cross-check and verify it with independent agents or completely different services, asking them to take out this "AI feel", but like a writing style that gets baked in, or the particular feel an illustrator has, it doesn't seem to go away as I intended. I guess AI providers are probably aware of this problem too. But I don't know how they would measure it and improve on it (with what benchmark?).
caxap 16 hours ago||
I wonder if over time the two will simply merge and become indistinguishable from one another. The human writing is already changing, as the author has observed. The LLMs will follow the change, and soon meet us in the middle!

Or maybe the humans will do the opposite and shift to Sardukar-style communication instead? LLMs can easily match that as well.

That style I would very much prefer to all the fluff people write today and were writing even before AI.

arjie 15 hours ago|
The other day I was writing a blog post summarizing how I use an adaptation of a context handling technique and I wrote the following three lines:

* Every user run becomes a memo

* Days summarize, rolled to weeks, rolled to months - all written once

* Today's runs are shortened and placed into running context past the cache break

Then while reading it before publishing it, I thought it sounded super LLM-y. I didn't rewrite it because I jammed that stuff together before hitting publish because I was in a hurry but now that I go re-read it, it's somehow worse. Dear god. It's happening.

The classic thing is this business with inanimate objects verbing metaphors or becoming other objects. It's a strangely uncanny valley, but I suppose I read so much of this with Claude that it gets stuck in my head!

charlysisto 16 hours ago||
I started writing a novel recently - in french. I have a clear view of each scene by this I mean not exactly what happens but the general motion, its objective and where it should land. But only when I start writing does it come to life and so many things I did not anticipate pop up and give depth to the characters and sense to the overall plot. Never would the AI give me that, however good the result may be
wrongtrousers 2 hours ago|
Cool. Good luck writing!
maxglute 15 hours ago||
I don't mind reading LLMism, but hearing people say it out loud like on youtube videos irritates me to no end.
hmokiguess 15 hours ago|
This other day I went to a cottage with friends, we were having fun, and I decided to experiment "integrating AI" into our conversation as if it was a person in the room.

I turned on ChatGPT on Voice mode with no context whatsoever and just put it there in speaker in the room.

It started giggling and say "yeah" "right" and some very weird stuff. Then one of our friends reacted to that and started calling it out, then it started changing.

I'll keep it short, but basically the thing was super hilarious we had a lot of fun and at the end it triggered it safety protocols and its voice completely changed and it was acting super weird.

I know this post isn't about that, but I feel like soon we will have true AI companions in the home and around people.

axus 14 hours ago|
North Korea could make a "Dear Leader" device that lives in people's homes, and discusses how happy they are and answers questions.
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