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Posted by syllogism 5 hours ago

The 'Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen' post is misleading(honnibal.dev)
665 points | 149 commentspage 2
kenjackson 4 hours ago|
The original post explains what they did and why better than this post. This post taught me nothing that wasn’t in the original.
syllogism 4 hours ago||
They make it sound like they improve Qwen by reading raw weights. They don't. In fact the experiments that use raw weights have very little to do with the experiments that work on larger models.
kenjackson 4 hours ago|||
The paper makes it ridiculously clear what they do and don’t do. And they make the reasons why clear too. There is absolutely nothing interesting in this new article.
syllogism 4 hours ago||
I don't understand how anyone can read the abstract and think it's "ridiculously clear" that the "Just by looking at the raw weights," doesn't apply to the Qwen experiment.
tedivm 3 hours ago|||
You are right, if you literally just read a one paragraph description you will get less details than reading the whole post, but most of us read more than just the one paragraph. There is some actual interesting stuff in the paper, including the portion where they did edit the weights to fix the looping bug.
malfist 2 hours ago||
> most of us read more than just the one paragraph

Most of us barely read the title

tedivm 1 hour ago||
Honestly, that's on them. Coddling people who are too intellectually lazy to read the entire article isn't helping anyone.
kenjackson 4 hours ago|||
It says this “All of this is possible without allowing Astra to write training loops. It uses its reasoning to figure out what each part of a neural network computes, or should compute, and changes the weights accordingly.”

This seems 100% accurate to me. What is a lie here?

stymaar 3 hours ago||
Nobody said they outright “lied”, most misleading statements are “100% accurate” yet are designed to mislead the reader.

And when you see the reactions in the HN comment to the original article, it's pretty clear that most people have indeed been mislead.

nextaccountic 3 hours ago||
The article is not misleading either.

The title is but then OP should talk about just the title instead

stymaar 2 hours ago||
The title and the abstract are, the article is fine (but disappointing, given the excitement built up by the title + abstract)
nater5000 2 hours ago|||
>They make it sound like they improve Qwen by reading raw weights.

Weird, because they explicitly and clearly explain exactly what they did and didn't do.

Did you actually read the original post or just take the word of some HN comments at face value?

stymaar 4 hours ago||
They did, except they also did write an abstract and a title that will mislead anyone who isn't going to read the full paper in details.

It's fair to say that this is malpractice.

kenjackson 4 hours ago||
I just reread both and neither seem misleading to me. If anything the title is underwhelming.
micoti 4 hours ago||
Some of original blog post really seems to follow Arditi et al. (2024) (https://arxiv.org/abs/2406.11717). Projecting out a direction can only remove behaviour and not add capability so the jump mostly comes from unblocking the looping.

So I do agree it is misleading and trying to present work as groundbreaking.

ad1ttya 1 hour ago||
I pretty much got that idea when reading the post, on how it didnt have improvements on a Gemma 270M model which didn't have any looping issue. However, it still made me look at some bottlenecks in models I had trained (like MLP network for stylus input automation and a 17M reranker with NLI stance and noul heads) and allowed me to finetune without training, but just by adjusting some weights. But what's pretty cool is the zero shot sandbox development method they showed for a Go model. I tried to do that for a 17M re-ranker from zero weights and Astra built it using its reasoning without me having to use a GPU and find training datasets that are not CC by NC, and add some hours of tweaking and checkpoints. I don't know if its the best way to build something, but we might be building small models (maybe not LLMs) like with just programming the weights instead of finetuning.

In the end I got to replace a 68M model with a 17M model, and improve stlyus tool recognition accuracy from 88 to 96%. Was a pretty fun experiment too.

nater5000 2 hours ago||
>The 'Astra can read and write weights to improve Qwen' post is misleading

Does the author mean the "LLMs can natively read & write neural network weights" post? Did the researchers change the name or something? Because when I read it, it made it very clear what they were doing and none of it was misleading. It all aligns with what this author is saying.

antirez 2 hours ago||
Why this post is here in the front page? The Qwen vector steering performed was a very selective operation that interested only specific layers and weights set, it is non trivial to identify and fix. This is remarkable. Also Experiment 3: no access to forward pass, so why here this post says the contrary of what the paper shows and everybody upvoted it? I don't understand.
syllogism 2 hours ago||
Experiment 3 doesn't involve reading the weights in as part of the prompt. It's a coding exercise. Here are the turns: https://github.com/RikiyaT/lm_understand-logs/tree/main/exp3...

At each point the model has to write code to read the weights in with Python and some other Python code to perform analysis, like this: https://github.com/RikiyaT/lm_understand-logs/blob/main/exp3...

My complaint is that the post presents a confusing mix of experiments that imply capabilities that are more than the sum of their parts. This experiment 3 has nothing to do with experiment 1 for instance. In experiment 1 the model does read in the raw weights like it's reading an image.

nsagent 59 minutes ago|||
If you don't like these experiments, then I can only assume you would complain about CRISPR as well, considering it's a general framework with many disparate parts that work together synergistically, similar to the work Takehi et al. describe. CRISPR was also famously rejected multiple times by reviewers.

Note that being able to both inspect raw weights and run Python code to perform additional analysis means the model has multiple possible techniques at its disposal (generally considered a positive, rather than a "confusing mix").

syllogism 34 minutes ago||
I don't understand CRISPR well enough to comment on the analogy.

The blog post claims to show that frontier LLMs can understand and craft neural network weights natively. The experiments where the model completes coding tasks are not relevant to this conclusion. Those experiments require the model to demonstrate an analytic understanding of how a network might behave under various conditions, along with reasoning skills, coding skills etc. As a coding task this is a significant challenge. But it's entirely different from "natively reading and writing neural network weights".

Would you also consider it a benefit if there were experiments showing that a frontier model can download and run PyTorch, or write its own network and optimiser? That's another technique it has at its disposal to improve an ML model. It's just not one that's relevant to the paper's core claims.

SuperV1234 2 hours ago|||
> Why this post is here in the front page?

You know exactly why... because anti-AI hysteria is quite popular on HN.

Any "critique" or "appeal to resist AI" rooted in emotion and inability to admit that intelligence is not a feat unique to humans anymore will make the rounds here.

bananaflag 2 hours ago|||
But why? Shouldn't people who like CS be more open to the idea? I mean this is why computers were created, to think instead of people.
ex-aws-dude 36 minutes ago|||
Are you kidding? If anything pro-AI hysteria is way stronger here, just look at how many upvotes the original got

Even any small model update a company puts out is guaranteed top of HN

imtringued 2 hours ago|||
If people have programmed programs to interpret neural networks, what is so special about the AI doing so? It's a forgone conclusion.

You can let the AI generate training code for the next architecture too.

It's not like the AI is randomly losing its ability to write software just because it involves AI.

youareundersell 2 hours ago||
I am growing increasingly fond of the term "anti-AI psychosis". It's getting ridiculous sometimes.
827a 3 hours ago||
I was blown away even by #1, and I don't feel after reading this that I was misled.
giancarlostoro 3 hours ago|
Agree, it makes sense, a lot of people are catching on to LLMs for reverse engineering finally, but its been possible. LLMs can and will eventually flawlessly dissect models. I experiment with Claude, I ask it tasks I know are possible, but have no idea the solution, it can reverse engineer obfuscated projects faster than most talented people I know in that field (talking about games now not AI). I heard a developer say their latest release would take at least a month to figure out the obfuscation and encryption, Opus 5 did it in like... 15 minutes of talking to me (I did throw it the right questions / suggestions). I do that all in the name of seeing just exactly what is possible.

Claude has been able to do reverse engineering for nearly a year if not longer, as well as full source code rewrites, if you know how to do a proper rewrite, luckily for me, most of my career has been rewrites.

antoineMoPa 3 hours ago||
I don't get it. Because python was used, it's supposed to not be cool? IMHO, working with raw weights with Python is still working with raw weights.
syllogism 3 hours ago||
If I told you, "I can write a Python program to repeatedly run a machine learning model and calculate statistics over the weights and activations to find and fix a specific problem", would you be surprised by that? Because this is very much a part of what ML engineers do.

And then the experiment where it writes out the weights, in that one it's also writing a Python program to solve the problem --- which, again, is a program a person could write.

It's not nothing that Astra was able to perform these coding tasks, but they're still just coding tasks. They have nothing much to do with the experiment where it reads in the raw weights. In that experiment, the relationship between the input weights and the input is mostly linear, so it's a lot like doing image recognition. It's a cool result but it couldn't work the same way when you have complex transformations happening.

antoineMoPa 3 hours ago||
> Because this is very much a part of what ML engineers do.

Do you realize most people aren't ML engineers?

I even built tiny neural nets myself and never played with the weights directly post-training. The original post was eye-opening for that reason. I knew it was possible to visualize weights, but as far as I understood, it was not really something I could edit with any success. Now, it seems possible without a phd just by asking another LLM. This is fun!

akkad33 2 hours ago||
I think you misunderstand. Yet the model is doing something impressive still by writing code to fix model weights on problems. But that's a whole different ballgame than just reading weights and knowing what to change. That would mean that they have an internal representation of how the model weights map to information or a specific task, which if true, throws all the interpretability research out of the window
antoineMoPa 2 hours ago||
To me, the original article is more about what LLMs can *do* in weight space, I don't really see the part where it would tie to an internal representation.
tiborsaas 3 hours ago||
It's exactly what the post says. I was waiting for my excitement to drop for the original research, but I concluded that I was mislead more than this "coverage" than the weight editing research, which was in opinion quite easy to grasp.
eugenekolo 2 hours ago||
Just like Graduate Students are good at Gradient Descent, they can see patterns and fine tune parameters 100000 times until the result looks good. So too can LLMs with their ability to examine patterns and brute force things.
rfgplk 2 hours ago|
Except LLMs already exhibit superhuman intelligence.
Brian_K_White 2 hours ago||
They exhibit superhuman toil.
eugenekolo 2 hours ago|||
That's a good way to look at it
mrkstu 1 hour ago||||
Grit for the win, yet again.
youareundersell 2 hours ago|||
There is a difference?
Brian_K_White 1 hour ago||
I've done my part. Do what you will from there.
wg0 3 hours ago|
Misleading how exactly when the original post states _exactly_ the same things as outlined in this objection?
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