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Posted by lacieargyle 2 days ago

What do the next 4000 emoji look like?(jenniferdaniel.substack.com)
96 points | 97 comments
urbandw311er 1 day ago|
> What do the next 4000 emoji look like?

They probably look like this: □ □ □ □ □ □ …

slazaro 1 day ago|
With the addition of some sequences of emojis you already know, and are confused to see together, because your system still doesn't know about the new combinations and just displays the individual parts in a sequence and it makes no sense.
Joker_vD 7 hours ago||
> and just displays the individual parts in a sequence and it makes no sense.

IIRC some earlier version of UTC 51 explicitly stated that the implementations of a particular version of Unicode absolutely should not try to show any sequences, not mentioned in the emoji-sequences.txt and emoji-zwj-sequences.txt, as a single glyph and must treat them as distinct graphemes. It apparently has been removed in the recent years so there is apparently now absolutely no guarantee of what visuals and when exactly you can expect.

brumar 19 hours ago||
> Contrary to popular belief “emo-ji” doesn’t mean “emo-tional”. It’s a Japanese word that literally translates into “picture character”

TIL

MeVfm 11 hours ago||
More specifically, the "e" part is "picture" and the "moji" part is "character."

e (絵) + moji (文字) = emoji (絵文字)

https://jisho.org/word/%E7%B5%B5 https://jisho.org/word/%E6%96%87%E5%AD%97

anewhnaccount2 10 hours ago||
Yes but we used to call them emoticons which was a bit clunky to pronounce so it's probably a form of https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phono-semantic_matching
archerx 6 hours ago||
Interesting, I always thought it was a quirky twist on the original emoticon.
chrismorgan 1 day ago||
One big problem with this interpretation: expressivity is severely limited with computer text compared with handwriting where you can do what you want, and Unicode is about encoding what already exists, not creating anything new. You could say things like emoji skin tones are an exception to that rule, but modifiers are very limited in Unicode due to how it’s all implemented, and can’t develop in the way described near the end.
bombcar 1 day ago||
I think the color variations and joining characters should be allowed without limit or reason, and up to the font if it wants to support an amalgamesh of fifty five different “people” emojis in twenty colors.

𓂺

silisili 1 day ago||
ಠ_ಠ
phyzome 1 day ago||
Unicode adds new things all the time, rather than just, well... unifying character encodings, like the original point of the whole thing.

It's just a lot slower at invention than a scribe can be.

monomania 1 day ago||
If anyone in the unicode consortium is reading this, we really, really need a chainsaw emoji.
mohsen1 1 day ago||
They are thinking of allowing you to mix chain and saw emojis together to get chainsaw. This is going to be interesting to see how it will be implemented. Apple is doing something in this direction with Emoji Playground already.

Apple is sending an image today, in a future world, the Unicode combination would render whatever that device (local AI very likely) in their device.

zdragnar 20 hours ago||
Apple's autocorrect is already awful. What could go wrong with sticking more AI in between two people communicating with each other?
kelseyfrog 18 hours ago||
It's not really difficult to propose a new emoji[1][2]. The stories I've read have a sense of a fair process and sense of accomplishment[3].

1. If you don't mind documents and bureaucracy.

2. https://unicode.org/emoji/proposals.html

3. https://www.superlinguo.com/post/632983029772582912/new-draf...

groceryheist 1 day ago||
Clever and fun read. Helps me think of emojis' literary affordances.

Here on a website that deprives us commenters of emoji, I feel expressively constrained.

Or maybe I'm too lazy to remember how to express myself with Japanese emoticons.

Will we get a trainman for the emoji era?

<3

mnsc 1 day ago||
This website is an anomaly. My style of communication is normally light hearted and rife with emojis setting the tone of my messages. Here I always need to adapt if I want to say something. "how can I choose my words to minimize risk of misunderstanding". This often means that I express myself like some sort humourless robot (imo). And that's also how I think about other commenters. Dry, academic/humourless, men (yes) obsessing over technical details in news in order to make money. But I get that this is intentional and on topic so as long as I'm not reading comments on some topic that naturally includes feelings (controversial/political figures/companies) it's fine and actually a breath of fresh air compared to other more expressive discussion forums.
gertrunde 1 day ago||
Perhaps something that illustrates my feelings about emoji... I had to individually select two of the emoji in the article and do a search for them in order to work out what they were... (they turned out to be oyster and fireworks, and seven didn't render at all...

(Anther set of searches tells me that some of the ones that didn't render were 'anatomical heart', tamale, 'heart hands', 'face holding back tears' (another one I would have struggled to divine the meaning of)

Animats 1 day ago||
Does anyone still use emoji? Except for ones on forum replies. I sometimes get an emoji as a one-glyph reply to texts. That's about it. They were far more popular a decade ago.
rwmj 1 day ago||
Antiquated symbols used in historical texts is something I approve of in Unicode.
BoxOfRain 15 hours ago|||
I'm still a fan of emoticons. :) and >:( convey distinct feelings to their emoji equivalents in my opinion.
Aerroon 1 day ago|||
Isn't this expected? It's always been custom emotes everywhere. Even before emojis, the "default emoticons" fell out of favor among avid users.
baron3dl 19 hours ago||
:)-8--<
Bender 16 hours ago|||
Does anyone still use emoji?

Yes. When there is a post awaiting moderator review on one of my sites everyone can see the toilet paper emoji next to the board listing. I also have animated CSS that makes an emoji of a spy pop up behind threads in a couple themes. During Halloween I have an emoji bat emoji fly across the screen and a spider emoji drop down assuming the client does not have animations disabled on their desktop as I respect motion preferences. [1] (click set to use the spooky theme)

It may be silly to some these days and that's fine with me. I enjoy it and I have an odd sense of humor.

[1] - https://altchan.org/Theme?theme=spooky

eastbound 1 day ago||
Marketing copy and job offers are full of them, and AI has made that much more frequent. I assume you include all kind of pictures punctuating sentences, such as "someone at a computer" when you mention working, etc., not just yellow faces.
rmah 1 day ago||
Personally, I think adding emojis to UNICODE was a mistake.
sixtyj 1 day ago||
Imho Unicode is the only accepted universal system how to sustainably maintain emoji… recent and all future ones.

Unicode has over 1.1 millions of coding points and it is allocated space ~16 pct only.

All alphabets’ characters are described, all emojis are in… and you still have 800,000 positions available for future.

There are more than 300,000-400,000 fonts and everybody with FontMaker can make another fork/copy/enhance “basic” sans or sans-serif fonts…

…and all of them use Unicode as base.

U+1F600 for smile. :)

Edit: TIL that empty square used in a font for non-existing representation of Unicode character is called tofu :) □

Gigachad 1 day ago|||
I feel like it would have been better to just allow embedding a small arbitrary bitmap or vector image in text. No one likes the current state where you send an emoji that looks one way on your system and then looks different on the receiving end. And it would have avoided all the conflict over which emojis get added and which don't.
egnehots 1 day ago|||
That's a simple hack that fixes this issue, good job.

But now you have many more issues,

if you use a bitmap, it will look pixelated sometimes, some people love to zoom over text at incredible levels. What about light/dark themes?

If you use vector graphics, then which kind of them? will you use quadratic beziers, allow cubics? And don't think that it is easy to render vector graphics efficiently, there are many issues, parsing, anti aliasing, performance, you are also adding a new security nightmare, a good attack vector with complex to handle, parse untrusted user input.

And boy, we didn't even talk about caching, when will you send those payloads? when you type one emoji? Then what about the 2nd time? Surely not? Then how do you know the receiver has not lost your first payload? Should you batch send most payloads at the beginning? Will that introduce latency? Will you be hated by future generations?

Decoupling meaning, intent from representation, implementation is a good idea from text encoding schemes. We should not lost it. Fonts are a perfect example, most people are happy to use them. They do not overly complaint that you can change the way text is looking. The same meaning is sent to you, your platform text rendering stack is interpreting it and macos users are happy to have their consistent look, windows users are happy to have their ClearType legible rendering, ..well most are anyways.

Complex subjects rarely call for a simple hack. Yet I agree, emoji rendering is an issue. Some people even want to put in fonts rendering code (wasm?) because of how complex it is to handle.

sixtyj 1 day ago||||
Emoji is as font. And Unicode doesn’t store fonts, it describes character encodings.

And it is up to everybody how graphical representation of such encoding looks like.

Unique, universal and uniform encoding -> Unicode, in 1988 coined by Joe Becker.

Gigachad 1 day ago||
Which just highlights the issue. People largely don’t care how letters show up. Emojis changing form entirely changes the message.
whatshisface 1 day ago||||
The emoji plane represents the most censored, internationally accepted, committee-deliberated, and culturally sensitive image set in existence.
SahAssar 1 day ago|||
So you want the only widely accepted international text encoding to require including a whole image encoding standard too?
dataflow 1 day ago|||
Why?
saulpw 1 day ago|||
They are not part of any existing writing scheme. I think they could be a different standard like ":+1:" and ":chainsaw:" but it makes no sense for them to be built into text rendering.
p-e-w 1 day ago||
> They are not part of any existing writing scheme

They are today, and there is now orders of magnitude more writing that uses emoji than the entire corpus of many of the scripts covered by Unicode.

Language and writing have always been continuously evolving and that process didn’t magically stop when the Internet was invented. The first emoji preceded their inclusion in Unicode, humans used them in writing, therefore they belong in Unicode.

orbital-decay 1 day ago|||
>They are today

Correction: Unicode emojis are, because they got added to Unicode.

>Language and writing have always been continuously evolving and that process didn’t magically stop when the Internet was invented.

Okay but why should Unicode be a part of it, and a judge on what to include? That sounds like linguistic prescriptivism, while the original role of Unicode was descriptive and the evolution was happening outside of it. Emojis before Unicode were perfectly fine as composites that weren't mandated by committee.

p-e-w 1 day ago||
> Okay but why should Unicode be a part of it, and a judge on what to include?

How could it be otherwise? These debates have been a part of Unicode since the beginning, such as which Chinese characters to unify, which ancient scripts to include, which attested glyphs get their own code points etc.

That’s simply what it means to be a standard: Decisions need to be made, and not everyone will agree with all of them.

orbital-decay 1 day ago||
Ancient glyphs and Chinese characters existed before Unicode, the committee didn't conjure a new form of language out of thin air. The decisions with Chinese writing were necessary due to practicality (there are various composable encodings, including IDC in the Unicode itself, but they're not very practical for a general-purpose text processing encoding).

Unicode emojis did not exist before Unicode, the existing composite emojis/kaomojis/etc were already perfectly expressible in existing symbols, and were nothing like Unicode emojis. This was a huge distraction from their mission, and definitely not inevitable.

Today's emotes became customized, and it's impossible to express them in any encoding. They diverged too much from writing to be called writing, it's a volatile signaling system at best. You can literally make an AI generation or upload your picture, how do you even encode or standardize that? But because of their blunder Unicode got stuck with its role of a judge and censor of a new entirely synthetic language it created, which wasn't the original purpose of the consortium.

thunderfork 15 hours ago||
The original set of emoji were from JP mobile phones (pre-unicode-emoji) and should not be confused with kaomoji/emoticons
saulpw 1 day ago|||
Let me put it another way: Unicode is for letters, not for words.
p-e-w 1 day ago|||
It’s for many, many things besides letters, and was designed to be so from the beginning. Pictograms of various types have always been in Unicode, and even in many predecessor codesets.
thunderfork 15 hours ago||||
Unicode is for text symbols, some of which represent one word (e.g. &, U+2116) and some of which represent multiple words (e.g. U+FDFD). Other non-letter characters include numbers, punctuation, and so on.
Timwi 16 hours ago|||
Imnotsureyouunderstandwhattextwouldlooklikeifyoucouldonlyuseletters
ninjin 1 day ago||||
Can not speak for the original poster, but I tend to agree in that it greatly limits the speed of creativity due to the integration process, creates a very subjective bureaucratic process for inclusion, and that frankly emoji are not a script (yes yes, you can make an argument that they are akin to ideograms, but this analogy breaks down rather quickly). Thus, I think a different technological solution could have been warranted. The story I keep hearing is that it was necessary to get the Japanese telephone companies on board with Unicode rather than their own emoji hacks combined with local Japanese encodings, which I can sympathise with as a necessary (but unfortunate) evil. A word of caution though that I find text with heavy use of emoji largely unreadable as my eyes fixates on the emoji rather than following the text; thus I am likely biased (but possibly still correct).

All things aside though, Han unification [1] remains the worst part of Unicode to me as it makes it impossible to know whether the glyph I am seeing is the one intended by whoever wrote the text (Chinese names in e-mails for example is an utter mess for someone like me that has to have their system set up to mostly handle English and Japanese). The whole Han unification mess more or less necessitates markup and sometimes even the insertions of raster image glyphs for historical and regional texts which is just bloody daft. Yes, Unicode language markers do exist and can resolve this in part. But, they are invisible to the end user, can disappear while copying and pasting, and you have to rely on the original author even putting them there in the first place! Whenever someone struggles to see the issue, I usually propose that we unify the common subsets of the Cyrillic, Greek, Latin, and Mathematical glyphs which usually finally drives home the point.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_unification

eviks 1 day ago||
> I usually propose that we unify the common subsets of the Cyrillic, Greek, Latin, and Mathematical glyphs which usually finally drives home the point.

That would be an awesome compact encoding scheme (and also help with the next 4million emojis)! And given the relatively higher importance of those CyrGrLat, it would force wider proper support that would resolve the issues you raised, which are all app-dependent

> But, they are invisible to the end user

Apps make them visible, some even do that for whitespace chars to highlight the difference

> can disappear while copying and pasting

broken clipboards can be fixed? They somehow manage to retain rich text formatting, surely they cna retain language markers?

> you have to rely on the original author even putting them there in the first place!

Nope, the author's input app can handle that just like the original author doesn't need invisible joiners to use composed emojis

bigstrat2003 1 day ago|||
I think that Unicode should have been limited to only depicting existing writing systems. Anything else is imo out of scope for a text encoding format.
hnlmorg 1 day ago||
So what about ASCII control codes? They are non-printable characters that are part of Unicode, grandfathered in, yet aren’t part of any writing systems.

And home computers have had pictograms as part of their character set since the late 70s/early 80s. For example code page 437 (MS-DOS) had smilies, card suites, and other emoji. Likewise for the PETSCII (Commodore Pet) too.

And not just emoji’s, but full on drawing characters. In fact that was the only way to draw graphics on some early systems, such as Teletext, in the early 70s.

And then you have the question of what pictograms are part of writing systems. For example the media control symbols (play, pause, fast forward, etc). Or how about the fact that some emojis had been part of written text long before Unicode, in the form of “smilies”, eg :-)

I hope this illustrates that the problem was never an easy one to define boundaries for inclusion.

AlienRobot 7 hours ago||
The biggest issue with emoji is that it's not an actual glyph. Just think about the gun emoji. It was supposed to be a gun. It changes from actual gun to toy gun to space gun depending on the platform and year.

Imagine if you wrote the word "gun" and then 5 tech giants decided it was their job to change the "g" to a "b". It's ridiculous how lightly we take preserving messages when the whole industry is supposed to be about data.

They are also not specific enough to encode what they are meant to convey. People pick emojis for what they look, and if they look even slightly different the message changes, yet platforms are allowed to design them however they want and then change the design year after year. The letter "a" is still going to be the letter "a" no matter what. The same can't be said for "emoji covering their own mouth" which either looks shocked or mocking you depending on how it's designed.

mongrelion 18 hours ago||
A while ago something like this popped up on HN https://emojikitchen.dev/

Not sure if it's the same but the concept was the same: the ability to combine two emojis together.

AnonC 1 day ago|
> Emoji aren’t a language you can speak with your voice, and yet they give us a voice. They are the facial twitches and raised eyebrows that flat text stripped out of speech.

I love, love, love emojis and use them quite often in chats. They add emotion, whimsy, tone, and more. I can’t imagine text chats without emojis. I know that each emoji may mean different things to different people and also different things in different contexts. That makes it more appealing and inclusive (for and of people).

The biggest issues I have with emojis are:

* Too many emojis that I don’t know exist (search isn’t useful when you don’t really know or can express clearly what you’re looking for…Emojipedia helps sometimes).

* Too few emojis or no emojis for what I really want to convey.

* No way to flip any emoji vertically or horizontally or both. C’mon Unicode Consortium, you can do this!

nextaccountic 13 hours ago|
I have a set of about 5 emojis I regularly use (following a power law, the first is much more used than the others), and I completely ignore the rest

But I guess everyone has its own set of preferred emojis and it's all eifferent

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