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Posted by kevin_hu 1 day ago

Closed AI models dominate the price-performance frontier(village.dev)
77 points | 73 commentspage 2
bob1029 1 day ago|
gpt-6.1-terra has some pretty crazy economics.

I don't think I am going to try to beat them at this game anymore. I've got a machine in my closet that is both collecting dust and accruing value. A very maddening state of affairs.

At this point, trying to beat a major provider is like running your whole house off grid when the alternative is 12c/kWh that is already wired to the premises. You might win if you make it your only job for years on end and have a very specific lifestyle that is tolerant to weird tail risks (assuming you aren't willing to go back to the grid in an emergency).

spwa4 1 day ago|
... and yet ... with codex on my subscription it gets nowhere. Clearing out the entire monthly quota in half a week happens every time now. Didn't use to.

So what's the point? After the codex <> web quota merge next month it'll be useless ...

iaanix 1 day ago||
Is the current frontier pricing sustainable? Or are they bleeding money prior to IPOs?
addedGone 1 day ago||
It's getting cheaper and cheaper (intelligence/cost ratio) actually.
41353aab 1 day ago||
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pupppet 1 day ago||
Oh really? I have tasks that DeepSeek 4.1 Flash is absolutely murdering everything else on price–performance.
sroerick 1 day ago||
Not to mention the insane discounts I'm getting with subscriptions on it

I'm running full swarming on a 90$ subscription lol

aleqs 1 day ago||
Which sub(s) do you use?
sroerick 1 day ago||
Synthetic, Neural watt has been great too
aleqs 1 day ago|||
Yeah, I'd say I get about 10x net of equivalent quality output/usage with DeepSeek over an anthropic sub.
jimbokun 1 day ago||
Maybe that’s in the 3% mentioned in the article.
whycombilater 1 day ago||
... because they are subsidised in the short term - the business model is to stop you using cheaper & better open models in the long term.
oscarcraven 1 day ago||
Frontier is a hilariously overloaded term these days.
noosphr 1 day ago||
That's to be expected since all the proprietary models were just released. Give it six months and the Chinese labs will distill from the proprietary models like they did last time.
meowface 1 day ago|
Yes, but then at that point the newest proprietary models will dominate the price-performance frontier.
hatefulmoron 1 day ago|||
The article itself goes against this intuition, open models have taken up as much as 40-50% of frontier for capable/affordable. Right now is very much a low point. The fact there's a lot of churn as new models are released is not unexpected, I think.
Grimblewald 1 day ago|||
If required, so far I'm not impressed with newest proprietary. i have a claude sub mostly rotting at this point, so i come back from time to time until the year long sub expires, but at this stage i will not renew and see no point in doing so.
meowface 1 day ago|||
Have you tried Opus 5.5 and Fable 5.1? They're still better than any of the available open-weights models. (And rumors are Fable 5.5 is coming out tomorrow or next week.)
hatefulmoron 1 day ago|||
I have a Claude $200 (Ultra these days) plan and use Opus 5.5 for work with ultracode workflows and all the rest every day. I also use DeepSeek V4.1 Flash 1107 through a separate subscription plan with Pi.

Using DeepSeek I've made the Wayland compositor I use every day. It's finished now in the sense that it doesn't crash or have any bugs, nor can I think of any features to add or anything to change.

When somebody else is paying, I'll absolutely just throw Opus 5.5 at it. Who cares. It gives the best chances that the output is what I want, at no extra cost to me. But for my personal projects, using DeepSeek in Pi with a workflow extension is competent.

Sorry for throwing lots of text at you. All of this to say there's more to it than just which model is more intelligent. There's also speed, cost, and "good enough". Perhaps the problems I'm working on right now are just not complicated enough for "Opus is better" to be a real selling point.

Grimblewald 1 day ago|||
Have used 5.5, ran usual battery of tests, and the downhill death spiral in a science/chemistry context continues. Code wise, it is better than open weight in several ways, but you really have to work hard to fight it from creating such a heavily abstracted mess it becomes unmaintainable for humans. Requires too much handholding for me. It's scientific reasoning is more confident as well, which would be great if it were also more correct.

Open weight models are generally more humble when working at fronteir, seek human input more reliably on thi gs they have no buisness deciding on, and can be trusted to not fuck up codebase in some way. Also, the way claude talks by default and tends towards even with all the "use this standard or that" tricks, grinds my gears in a way that drive me postal.

So, all in all, the shit prose, the constant oversight robbing me of attention better spent elsewhere, and high cost, and seemingly correct and difficult to catch errors on first pass make avoidance/non-reliance a nobrainer.

When dumb models are right, they're right, because likely its a solved problem elsewhere, and when they're wrong its quite transparent. Claude and fable are extremely good at spinning resilliant bullshit that can take quite some mental labor to verify and disprove, usual problem is flawed or deeply i correct assumptions on top of which then relativly sound reasoning and evidence is layered, or otgerwise weird contradictory decisons made "because i thought it would be better this way" that waste 48 hours of gpu time on an invalid model because claude fucked the one small part entrusted to it, which was extremely well defined and reasoned/backed by literature and it just made an executive decision to deviate without consulting or warning about it.

so fuck claude.

noosphr 1 day ago|||
I was seriously underwhelmed by the previous generation, reminded me of the hype around gpt2 being too dangerous to live from the same people.

At least Gemini 4 Argon has made writing the front ends I hate and don't care about a breeze.

I have no idea how much that's worth to other people, but it's more than worth the account or three I use.

meowface 1 day ago||
IMO there's no point commenting on it unless you've actually tested using Opus 5.5. You can't assess the status quo based on even one generation prior.
mrtesthah 1 day ago||
What is even the point of measuring this if these companies aren't profitable anyway? The prices might as well be arbitrary.
NiloCK 1 day ago|
How is this fact related to my decision about what models to use week to week?
dofm 1 day ago||
It’s not, of course; you’re going to act on your own requirements as you should.

But I think it becomes a little more relevant when making a price-performance comparison such as the article makes between “open” models and “closed” models.

Because the reader is invited by the term “price-performance” to think about efficiency, when in reality the results are being skewed by the fact that the user is not the only one paying for the service: investors are chipping in fairly directly for every token, at inference time.

Users are going to continue to do their own thing for their own reasons, and they should; that’s the market at work. But this is not an efficient market where meaningful comparisons can be made; all of the major closed providers are loss-leading.

pixel_popping 1 day ago||
Opus 5.5 is currently cheaper than Deepseek V4.1 flash (with APIfied subs, but who cares, that's the price for individuals & startups, unsure why everybody seems obsessed about "API is the price" while it's genuinely not except for Enterprises specifically) - It's quite hard to justify switching outside of the privacy factor.

For us who spends more than $150K tokens a month with less than $5K spending in subs, it's really hard to justify the switch and it's even senseless (for now).

outloudvi 1 day ago|
DeepSeek also has APIfied subs, and they have competition in-between so customers can have a great price.

I had a check on artificialanalysis.ai and it shows a 16% reduction in token and 200% increase in time for Opus 5.5 Max compared to DeepSeek V4.1 Flash Max. I don't think the data is very accurate for my real life workload, but for any workload it represents I would think Opus having little advantage.

jameson 1 day ago||
For general use-case, closed-weight frontier models dominate.

Open-weights excel primarily at coding.

layerv-ai 1 day ago|
True but let's think about whether this actually matters in practice going forward, given that today, Deepseek/any OS-27B variant can do all the things that most devs need it to.

Let's scale this out 3 years into the future: - Opus 6.7 costs an arm and a leg to run for 2 prompts - Astra 7.89 literally requires you to buy-now-pay-later because it's so expensive - As a bootstrapped dev, your only option is serving local Qwen-4.04-27B that runs on your old RTX (that you bought in 2024)

Sure, it's worse performing. But if you can't afford the best ones in the first place, what's so bad about having a "pretty decent" model that you run essentially free (only paying electricity) if it does what you need it to?

... and if we're all in the permanent underclass anyway, what does it matter that your local model is dumber than the SOTAs? At least you have one! Some people who can't afford GPUs still have to type emails by hand.

(jk, this is actually a cool dataset though ^)

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