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Posted by jonbaer 14 hours ago

From Linux to Wikipedia: How Volunteers Build the Internet(thereader.mitpress.mit.edu)
238 points | 80 commentspage 2
dm319 10 hours ago|
I enjoyed this article - it gives a definition of "peer production", and explains our sense of unease when voluntary collaborative efforts get mixed with financial gains.
shevy-java 10 hours ago||
I thought about suggesting that AI slop will replace humans here, but then I remembered how awful Grokipedia is, so we are safe for the time being.
komali2 11 hours ago||
> Motivate participants to contribute using diverse incentives that are frequently, if not exclusively, nonmonetary.

> It’s worth repeating that these characteristics defy conventional assumptions about organizations and economic production.

I'm reminded of the meme, a caveman honing a spear, with the tag "How is he innovating without financial incentive?"

I feel like the "conventional" understanding of human behavior and motivation is new and wrong. That being: to get people to do things, you gotta pay them. To get them to do the thing better, offer a monetary reward / incentive.

In reality, the savviest of capitalism's participants instinctively understand this to be false: the prize in a sales contest is never a cash reward, it's always a car (or similar). A car that can be seen in the parking lot forever after, a clear symbol of the winner's success and competence. In the old days, it'd be bear claws on a necklace.

We made the mistake of thinking that the bear claws, shells, whatever, were an early form of currency, that they were a single scalar by which a society measured value, something that could be traded, when in reality they were abstract markers of a given person's prowess or status. People aren't proud and excited to own a porsche or have more bear claws so much as they're excited to show off what the porsche or bear claws represent: their competence and hard work. Trading the bear claws for a cow doesn't impart the value of the claws onto the receiver; unless they can lie successfully, everyone knows they didn't kill that bear, so the claws are useless, or worse, stolen valor. Similarly, many of us doubt that the people who have orders of magnitude more shells than the rest of us did anything worthy of deserving them, or at least not to such an absurd degree.

I've been reading a lot about human happiness and fulfillment lately because I'm 35 and a dink so I'm gonna have to do this manually (I assume kids give automatic fulfillment, correct me if I'm wrong).

In "The Dispossessed," Ursula K. Le Guin writes:

> A child free from the guilt of ownership and the burden of economic competition will grow up with the will to do what needs doing and the capacity for joy in doing it. It is useless work that darkens the heart. The delight of the nursing mother, of the scholar, of the successful hunter, of the good cook, of the skillful maker, of anyone doing needed work and doing it well -- this durable joy is perhaps the deepest source of human affection, and of sociality as a whole."

Emphasis mine. This idea that happiness and fulfillment comes from doing useful work and doing it well is the most consistent idea I've found in my reading. Edward M. Hallowell specifically prescribed it as treatment for depression from ADHD: experiment until you find an activity you're good at (novelty hunting), then work to get better at it, then seek recognition for your competence. Repeat until death.

So therefore I think FOSS is the natural human instinct, and all these attempts to steer human motivation with money is a wrongheaded abomination, and the source of a great deal of our unhappiness in life. How else can we explain that happiness and fulfillment is lower in some of the richest societies on earth than it is in some of the poorest? Very few of us are doing useful work, and we instinctively know it.

WalterBright 10 hours ago|
Somebody's got to do the dirty work, like fixing sewers. That's why we pay people, because they don't want to work for free.

And I speak as someone who has been contributing to open source for decades.

No, I am not going to mow someone else's lawn for free, unless they are a friend. And nobody is going to fix the blown head gasket on my car for free. Nor would I want them to.

Humans (likely) started out by trading favors. Then upgraded that with barter. Barter is pretty inefficient, so money was invented. A complex society cannot run on favors.

M95D 9 hours ago|||
> Humans (likely) started out by trading favors. Then upgraded that with barter. Barter is pretty inefficient, so money was invented. A complex society cannot run on favors.

That's not exactly how it was. I recommend reading "Debt: The First 5,000 Years" by David Graeber. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Debt:_The_First_5,000_Years

komali2 10 hours ago|||
> Somebody's got to do the dirty work, like fixing sewers. That's why we pay people, because they don't want to work for free.

I actually know a guy whose job it is to empty septic tanks, and he LOVES telling people super gross stories and leaning into his capabilities as someone to not be bothered by what he deals with on a daily basis. Watch that old show "Dirty Jobs" for lots of other people that think similarly.

Nobody wants to serve someone else's profits for nothing in return. That wrinkle kills a lot of FOSS motivation, when Micro$oft snaps up your project and starts raking in millions without a cent going to you. That's obviously unfair, and one things humans are very good at is telling when something isn't fair.

My overall point is, when controlling for baseline maslow, and ensuring there's no unfair labor exploitation, in a situation where we need plumbers, someone will be attracted to the vacuum of need, because humans love being needed, and love doing useful work.

brabel 6 hours ago|||
It’s interesting how we feel unfairly treated when we publish software for free, with a license that clearly states that others can do anything with it, and others go and do whatever they want, like you said they could, but only when it involves monetary benefit to them. Thinking about it, it really makes no sense. Why do we feel upset about that? It feels like we’re lying to ourselves. We didn’t really mean you can do anything! Come on, read between the lines! Hm, sorry but I cannot condone this attitude. There is a license that says what you more likely meant, that’s called GPL. But people seem to rarely use that. Humans are intrinsically contradictory in their behavior.
rafterydj 3 hours ago||
Don't leave out the common pattern of licenses being completely ignored by for profit, closed source competitors - where the only recourse is through the courts (costing the open source team money and resources) or even worse, the competitor being a different nationality so there's no legal options for you.
WalterBright 10 hours ago|||
I'm sure there are people who love working in the sewer, like Norton.

But I doubt there are enough to fill the need for them.

I contribute to open source. I made my peace long ago with someone using what I wrote to make money. (In fact, it pleases me if they make money off of it!)

If you contribute to open source, but get mad that someone is using it without paying you, then you did not contribute in good faith. It's like those religious cults who will press a "free" book on you, and then demand a "donation".

za_creature 8 hours ago||
This was only ever true in the form of a "take a penny, leave a penny" jar.

You don't necessarily mind people profiting off of your contributions because you have been profiting from other peoples' contributions at your job. Take away the jobs and suddenly there isn't enough grant money to go around to keep the lights on.

jdw64 2 hours ago||
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seducingsnowplo 6 hours ago||
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broken_knight 11 hours ago||
It is truly a wonder, building the complex technical framework of modern computing was achieved a community project. It shown even with out market incentives we can go a long way, to solve the current challenges like AI and misinformation.
cowlevel 11 hours ago|
This account is an AI karmabot
vanviegen 11 hours ago|||
How do you figure? The account has karma 0, and the message has a good number of spelling mistakes.
cowlevel 11 hours ago||
It's a brand new one, and the spelling mistakes are to avoid tripping HN's shiny new LLM detector that deads LLM comments.
notabotiswear 11 hours ago||||
How did you conclude that from a single comment and no posts?

Genuinely curious.

cowlevel 11 hours ago||
Fits the pattern. Brand new account, posts a summary of the article with no new value.
lakeviewterrace 10 hours ago||
> Fits the pattern. Brand new account

  > user: cowlevel
  > created: 31 days ago
  >          ^^
  > karma: 1515
None of the comments you posted here added any value either so by your logic your also brand new account is an LLM bot. Not to mention posting dozens of comments nonstop all day, at a rate most humans would not. Projection much?
solyin 10 hours ago|||
if you don't have showdead turned on, you'd miss https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50389079 which is that but worse
lakeviewterrace 9 hours ago||
I like how you can post 75 bullshit comments a day here and it won't set off any troll detector but if you dare to challenge hivemind opinions, your account is irreparably mass-flagged.
solyin 9 hours ago||
Hm? I'm just pointing out that the problem cowlevel is pointing out is real and not imagined.
cowlevel 5 hours ago|||
Why are you so desperate to defend bots? Are you their operator?
broken_knight 9 hours ago||||
No sir, I have just created an account. I just shared my honest response after reading this post. you have to buy yourself a new AI-dar!
lakeviewterrace 10 hours ago|||
> This account is an AI karmabot

Considering you have posted > 75 comments to HN in the last 24 hours, I would agree you are a karmabot!

broken_knight 9 hours ago||
From the paranoia, It is unreal we thought Turing test to be a major hurdle for ai in past.

Sadly the community aspect which was the idea of the post is threatened, as internet becomes a phantom world filled with bots, agents and clueless humans.

elvisgodevelop 11 hours ago|
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