Top
Best
New

Posted by microtonal 10 hours ago

Dutch 'idealist' bank ASN blocks non-Google Android, including GrapheneOS(github.com)
577 points | 361 commentspage 4
captainmuon 8 hours ago|
> To maintain that level of quality, we also need to be clear about our system requirements and avoid dedicating resources to troubleshooting issues on unsupported platforms and configurations.

This is such a corporate non-answer. If that was the problem, they could just detect the custom ROM and when someone calls support, the support agent could just say sorry not supported and hang up. I doubt that is the real issue.

One troubling possibility is that some security might be implemented client-side. Banks are ahead in security in some areas but far behind in others. Like in some cases you can just take money out of someones account if you know their account number, they rely on manual fraud detection, heuristics, and chargebacks. Instead of standard 2FA, my countries banks use a baroque parallel system. My password was for many years a word like "toast": It had a maximum length, had to be pronounceable over the telephone, was case insensitive etc.. Third party payment providers don't use something like OAuth but directly ask for my bank's password, and they used to just scrape the bank site, and so on.

But I think the real reason is regulatory, political, or due to pressure from the platforms. There is no pressing business or technical reason to go out of their way to block custom ROMs.

pasc1878 7 hours ago|
I thought the take money out of someones account was just an issue in USA.

UK definitely and I thought EEC banks use a different system that stops that.

captainmuon 6 hours ago||
It used to be common in Germany to order things (e.g. per mail order catalog) by giving your name, address and account number. I think it is still used when signing up for services. And "SEPA direct debit mandates" are still popular.
pasc1878 3 hours ago||
But in UK and I thought EU if a direct debit is wrong the Bank has to refund it.
akssri 2 hours ago||
This is atleast understandable in the Europe given the geopolitical closeness to the US.

What to say of 'dumb' frenemy countries like India that tie themselves with a leash and hand it over to Google/Apple? More so with the new signing requirements for Android - which can be removed at a whim that would disable all UPI apps that manage a large fraction of the transactions.

These semi- colonized countries clearly haven't learnt jack shit from what was done to Russia and China.

Taqas 2 hours ago||
This company is a joke. True story: someone working in their AI department told me they all got fired because AI is bad for the environment.
kaon_2 9 hours ago||
ASN has been dysfunctional for years. They needed a bailout and ever since have only deteriorated in their operations. To be fair, their risk management has surely improved and their new CEO is great. But their actual operations are superbad. They only do the easy loans and mortgages because anything else they can't do. Still I think as a bank they are doing well, everyone is opening accounts there. Marketing matters more than service I suppose.
tnolet 9 hours ago|
“Needed a bailout” is putting it mildly. ASN bank is 100% owned by the state since the got in trouble (like 90% of other Dutch banks).
Muromec 8 hours ago||
It's a bit outdated. The big green one isn't in the government majority ownership for a year and some now, so we installed back those glass shelves and cocaine dispensers in all restrooms by now.
tnolet 8 hours ago||
Yes, the state is divesting from ABN AMRO (and apparently making a profit on it) but ASN is still 100% owned. I think Rabobank was the only one of the big banks that did not need state sponsorship. Probably due to the fact they are a cooperation and don't have shareholders to please.
Muromec 5 hours ago||
Well, at least their CAO is re-negotiation on time then I guess.
jillesvangurp 7 hours ago||
If you change phone operator, there is number portability. But changing banks is a lot harder.

The EU could do what the UK did, which is making switching bank bank account automated for people (transaction forwarding, migrating direct debit authorizations, etc.). A lot of people might switch to more competent banks. I'm stuck with Deutsche Bank in Germany, for example. Switching would be a bit of a hassle. I'd have to make sure all the direct debit stuff gets changed to the new account (tax office, various insurances, etc.) all doable but it's a bit of friction. I'd be chasing different companies with forms, emails, etc. for a while.

There are a lot of user hostile banks that deserve to lose their customers because of their ineptness. The surviving ones would probably become a lot more service friendly. That's what competition does. German banks are particularly bad. I've lived in other EU countries. So, I have hands on experience with more competent banks.

ultra2d 5 hours ago|
Kinda exists already in the Netherlands: https://www.overstapservice.nl/deelnemende-banken/ .
nikolay 9 hours ago||
Other European banks do it, too - N26 also rejects GrapheneOS.
dns_snek 9 hours ago||
N26 works fine on GrapheneOS for me.... but I see there's a note saying:

> This app has started using Play Integrity to block new signups, existing accounts continue to work fine for now.

https://privsec.dev/posts/android/banking-applications-compa...

teekert 7 hours ago|||
Fwiw, also for me N26 works, have had the account for years now, but installed the app a couple of weeks ago (when I got my Pixel 10 with GOS.)
q3k 9 hours ago||
Maybe during registration, but not during use.
thibsrn 8 hours ago||
The title sets a lot of blame on the bank, but there might be other factors at play. It is possible that either national or european regulations or laws makes it mandatory for the banks to comply with a set of security features that makes it impossible for them to offer services to degoogled phones. There might not be any alternative because it would cost too much money to develop and more importantly to distribute it. It can also be the case that Google uses its influence over the android open source project to make sure it will never be the case.
microtonal 8 hours ago||
There might not be any alternative because it would cost too much money to develop and more importantly to distribute it.

https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

If Wero (assuming it's Wero) can push banks to implement Play Integrity, they can also make some guidelines or make a small SDK to for AOSP remote attestation. It's not terribly hard to implement and some banks already do.

captainmuon 8 hours ago||
I don't think there is an actual written regulation that talks about attestation or SafetyNet.

I can imagine in some meeting with the ministry or an industry association that somebody in charge said "implement all safety measures that Google and Apple provide, no excuses" and they just execute it.

I could also imagine there is a real need to do so. Maybe somebody found that criminals use rooted phones to robotically launder money or something like that. Or there was a criminal case where someone got a bank account with a fake ID and used it on a burner phone. Then the developers get a discrete notice from law enforcement or regulatory bodies and are told to close that gap. Who knows?

erikvanoosten 7 hours ago||
Luckily, Triodos (the other idealist bank in the Netherlands) still has an app that runs on Grapheneos.
flexagoon 4 hours ago|
Unfortunately Triodos has strong ties to the anthroposophy cult

https://steinermentary.com/steinerlens/triodos.html

toddmerrill 4 hours ago||
No. It may have been part of the founding of the bank back in the day, but I worked an intensive five years at Triodos and this is the first time I've even heard that word. No one I worked with or saw in the organization was related to that movement. It was clear to everyone there that as a bank we focus on providing a service that is socially positive for the community, and the people there did take that very seriously, but from what I've seen Dutch society has that to some extent embedded in its fabric.
flexagoon 3 hours ago||
I believe you that regular employees are not a part of this, and if it were just something the CEO believed I wouldn't care. But they use customer funds to fund ahtropospohical institutions. See, for example,

An anthroposophical pseudomedicine center:

https://www.triodos.nl/projecten/gezondheidscentrum-de-lemni...

An anthroposophical school:

https://www.triodos.nl/projecten/steinerschool-michaeli

Those aren't some old examples that I had to dig deep into the bank's archives to find, theyre just two examples of grants that are highlighted on their website right now. You and your colleagues probably weren't related to anthroposophy, but the management and the funding decisions definitely are.

motbus3 6 hours ago|
Weird enough that nothing I do as a client should be able to compromise security of the bank. This means purely they have dirty under the rug
More comments...