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Posted by adrianhoward 5 hours ago

Petered(aworkinglibrary.com)
99 points | 63 commentspage 2
thenoblesunfish 2 hours ago|
I have to admit that while this principle makes intuitive sense, it seems to be assume that promotion and competence are so simply related. A few people are the "rock stars", but for most, in organizations I've been in, it seems like being promoted (or winning grants or otherwise getting power and money) is so competitive that it becomes its own sub-job requiring a lot of your bandwidth, thus probably reducing your competence.
ghosty141 1 hour ago|
In smaller companies (in germany) what I often observe is a combination of your latter point (it being its own sub-job thus reducing competence) and simply being in a company at the right time without any possibility of somebody challenging them.

I feel like actual competition is severely lacking leading to people not having an reward for success or consequence for failure.

karol 2 hours ago||
After that people sink or swim. It depends whether they can learn enough to or their innate learning capacity has reached a limit.
mft_ 4 hours ago||
Amusingly, the one example I’ve ever seen of someone quickly realising they’d been promoted into a role they weren’t capable of or suited to and choosing to leave it quickly as a result… was called Peter.
kstenerud 1 hour ago||
This feels to me like a stretch. Christian Gläßel and Adam Scharpf studied data from the Argentinian army and compared it with historical accounts of dictatorships and coups, tracing differences between henchmen, coup plotters, and other members of the officer corps. These are situations where your physical survival often depends on what you do.

That's very different from company environments.

The Peter Principle is also unfortunately an overly simplistic model. Yes, some people can get promoted to a level where they technically can't cope anymore, but ability is rarely the measure by which people advance (except at the lowest grades where your political power is almost nil).

nkapias 2 hours ago||
Beyond the content, I'm pleasantly surprised to find this website design easier to read than most others.
stephbook 3 hours ago||
I don't think mixing the Peter principle with the advancement offered through unethical work offers more insights than both alone.

Really feels shoehorned in.

the_af 1 hour ago|
I don't know how accurate the description in TFA is, but it seems to me it's stating the petered employee, if they are self-aware enough to notice the corner they find themselves in, and desperate that their career is at stake, is more likely to turn to unethical paths in order to become valuable to the leadership. That's the connection.
mentalgear 3 hours ago||
> Imposters cloak themselves in a fog of obfuscation and busyness, so that the people around them can never say for sure what it is they are doing, or how well (or not) they are doing it.

Indeed, the more transparent a system is, the better it works toward its goals, since issues can be identified and fixed quickly. Of course, the nodes within the system that profit from obfuscation are determined to avoid real transparency across the network, as it would easily upend their parasitic game.

If we apply this to the global economy and society, we can see how billionaires, monopolistic companies, and other rent-seeking nodes wrap themselves in layers of obfuscation: PR, propaganda, media relations, politics, NDAs, patents. They then use those obscured resources to maintain and expand their illegitimate resources further through methods like lobbying, politics, tax loopholes, specialized laws.

Therefore, transparency is fundamental for any operating system to stay healthy, distribute power evenly, and avoid succumbing to the exploitation of a few power-aggregating parasitic nodes.

jrm4 3 hours ago||
Nice, I give the following advice often, namely:

Very often, the cause of imposter syndrome is that there is, in fact, an imposter. It just ain't YOU.

AnimalMuppet 2 hours ago|
Could you expand on this a bit?

It sounds like you're saying that someone else is making you (the receiver of the advice, not you, jrm4) feel incompetent. How are they doing so? Shifting the blame for their own incompetence? Trying to push work on you that really should be their work, but they can't do?

And, how would you detect this? By realizing that it shouldn't be your work? But that takes knowledge of how the organization should run that a person with imposter syndrome isn't likely to have. Even more, isn't likely to be confident that they have.

torben-friis 3 hours ago||
I always thought that the peter principle is very flawed, in that it assumes an increasing level of competence required per job, and people whose qualities are static.

About the first, being manager is not inherently a more difficult job than being a senior IC. It's just a wildly different skillset.

About the second, reaching a position you can't do does not at all mean you'll never be able to do it. We learn.

The right insight there is that the switch to management as a necessary step to grow is horribly handled. But "leader as a profession" sucks as well, managers fundamentally ignorant of the kind of work they're managing.

I think what we need is a more fluid relationship between work and learning. We assume a college->work pipeline, when maybe we should have career stages at which we go back to further learning.

nautilius 3 hours ago||
All of this is perfectly covered by the Peter principle. It doesn't assume an increase in difficulty at all, it just assumes a different skillset. People are promoted (maybe to manager) based on their performance in their previous job (maybe programmer). If they can adapt, great, and maybe they are even promoted further. If they cannot, they have reached their level of incompetence.
zeryx 1 hour ago|||
Why would going back to college help here? You don't need more certification you're already in and proved your value. As an outside and self taught I've always been fascinated. For a subset of people is it actually learn better in college style environments than on their own?
torben-friis 55 minutes ago||
I'm not talking necessarily about college, I'm talking about getting proper learning space when the new job is significantly different, which is the point of the discussion.

I personally like self learning, but I've met way too many cases of managers that were great engineers and awful at people management. At the end of the day the truth is nobody explicitly taught them the new required skills.

We shouldn't base the system on their first reports being guinea pigs while the manager wings it.

stasomatic 3 hours ago||
In most (all?) jobs, you can’t make more $ in the same role outside of inflation adjustments. You want more, you need to move up or hop. Moving up separates one from what they were good at, and enjoyed. All of a sudden you are dealing with vacation requests and some HR portal.
gherkinnn 4 hours ago|
Smells awfully like the Gervais Principle to me, where the petering manager is part of the clueless class.
AnimalMuppet 2 hours ago|
Note that the Peter Principle came long before the Gervais Principle. It might be more true to say that the Gervais Principle is largely a restatement of the Peter Principle.
the_af 1 hour ago||
I think they are related but focus on different things. The Gervais principle talks of losers, clueless and sociopaths (with a focus on the latter), not something the Peter Principle deals with. I'd say the Peter Principle deals mostly with what the Gervais Principle calls "the clueless".
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