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Posted by skittleson 8 hours ago

Smart home devices should work without the internet(docodethatmatters.com)
649 points | 230 commentspage 3
f1shy 5 hours ago|
ANYTHING that does not absolutely need to be online, like looking at current news, current weather or such, should work without internet. Especially appliances. The more difficult it is to change it, the less dependent should it be of any cloud infrastructure. Anything built in the walls, must not depend on internet. Same for car functions, if a car should be good for 10 to 20 years.
ghaff 5 hours ago||
I recently had a pretty extensive home renovation don after a kitchen fire--which din't have a lot direct damage but the rouse was pretty much cleared out. I pretty much didn't have any direct "smart" stuff. A few appliances are probably enableable but they aren't.
oculetteai 3 hours ago||
As someone making a smart device, I can attest, it's not even that hard too, just make an MCP server so someone can use it with their local AI
acd 5 hours ago||
Please stop connected devices smart. Analog offline are better in other aspects.
microtonal 5 hours ago|
There are many great Zigbee devices. You can use them as dumb devices or as connected devices that are fully local and privacy-preserving.

These days I mostly don't buy it if it's not Zigbee (unless I make it myself with ESPHome). Just this week we bought two panel heaters (for two rooms that need a little heating because our heat pump is mostly used for heating the living room and kitchen). They work great over Zigbee and we can have some useful automations (like automatically switching off when forgotten and there is no one in the room for more than 10 minutes).

alexcano 6 hours ago||
ev chargers are the worst case of this imo. a lot of them only do the off-peak schedule through the vendor app, so if the cloud goes away you end up charging at peak. on some time-of-use plans that's ~$500 a year for the same car
pzlarsson 5 hours ago||
Control over local api was pretty much my only requirement when buying an ev charger, ended up with one from go-e and it works very well.
wtch98 6 hours ago||
Mine is based on a vestel evc04, and by default has a cloud option with some company saying "we'll do it, move your energy through us" etc.

You can connect it to any evcc endpoint like a local homeassistant, or simply leave it on all the time.

I'm not happy with guaranteeing high availability on my HA install yet (it's not as simple as my pihole which is just a simple vrrp address over the two hosts) though so I just leave it in "always on" mode, and use the timer on the car to come on at 2310 (offpeak starts at 2300 on my tarrif).

I'd be surprised if a charger is genuinely only available via an cloud service, but from asking my neighbours if it doesn't have "an app" they wouldn't buy it.

I'd rather have an API I could poll/poke for the charger rather than set the charger to connect to me, but alas it doesn't have one.

bix6 6 hours ago||
How does the WiFi wall switch work? If WiFi goes down you can still click a light on and off? This is tempting as I have to leave all my smart lights on rn but do I really need to rip out all my light switches? Ugh.

Also anyone found the fix to smart bulbs constantly “updating”?

varenc 6 hours ago||
I just put devices like that on a wifi without internet access. Occasionally I'll need to grant internet access for setup, and then it goes back to being denied. Can't update if you can't download updates.
bix6 5 hours ago||
D’oh didn’t even think of that thank you!
hamdingers 5 hours ago|||
Yes it does, smart switches have buttons that control the relay directly.

Also aside from maintenance there's no reason your WiFi should go down, an inexpensive UPS can keep it up for hours in a power outage. Even if it can't access the outside world, local routing works fine.

simultsop 6 hours ago|||
not all networking has to be routed publicly. many can still operate locally. the catch is, they want your subscription to them, when your devices are required to route publicly.
chaps 6 hours ago|||
Use an infrared switch.
kach_app 6 hours ago|||
[flagged]
skittleson 5 hours ago||
yes. mine are martin jerry switches running tasmota and the button drives the relay directly, so with wifi down it's just a normal light switch. wifi only adds the remote control. you'd swap the switch itself, the wiring stays.
born-jre 2 hours ago||
I had a chuckle when I saw “ AI;DR “ nice will use it.
skittleson 1 hour ago|
i like it... it shows that im being kind to the ppl that dont want to read AI assisted blog posts. i know that is big deal here so i least tell the truth about it.
skittleson 8 hours ago||
Author here. This is ten years of home automation rules, led by one: nothing core should depend on a vendor's server. Setup core is Tasmota, MQTT and Node-RED on a Pi. I've given this talk a few times and started working on a third for the agentic era. What's the most pointless internet dependency you've found in a device?
tomcatfish 7 hours ago||
:( Your notes are probably more fun to read than the generic AI voice. Your actual notes are fun, but seeing the ~extra cruft from an AI writer in every line irritated me enough to quit before the end.
1dontnkow_ 55 minutes ago|||
That's some good rules but if most products arent like that or these products with your requirements are more expensive, then is it really "OK"? This is a real big issue and isnt a technical one. Its not about if you have some obscure alternative or can hack it away in a weekend. The point is that 99% of home appliacnes or whatever, dont need a server or any concept of cloud or its jsut a feature which you turn on and off and nothing much changes besides backup or such. Also surely accounts or connecting your email isnt needed either.
diggernet 7 hours ago|||
Love your rules.

My personal situation imposes even stricter versions of your #1 and #2:

1. No network, no problem. Anything core to the house has to work with Wi-Fi or automation server shut down.

2. Smart functionality must not remove dumb functionality.

As one example: having a physical switch that controls a light and the switch can be operated by automation is good. Having automation control a light and the switch just tells automation what to do is bad.

This does make things hard sometimes. For instance, your sprinkler controller doesn't pass that bar. In fact the only one I've found so far that has a local API for automation plus full "dumb" on-device control (no Wi-Fi, no app) is RainMachine, and they are gone. If only OpenSprinkler hardware had a touch screen for local UI.

wolrah 5 hours ago|||
> 1. No network, no problem. Anything core to the house has to work with Wi-Fi or automation server shut down.

This is one of the reasons I love Zigbee, the device network is entirely independent of my computer network, can not directly communicate to the internet in any way, and every device I've put on the network so far can be configured to directly communicate with other devices so basic functionality remains operational even if the controller goes down.

For example, in my living room I have a Lutron Aurora dimmer dial locking a standard switch in the on position, then plugged in to the outlet that switch would normally control is a Leviton dimmer module. Both connect to the network controlled from a PoE Zigbee dongle, but have been directly paired as well so pressing the button on the dial makes it directly tell the dimmer module to turn on, rotation commands are sent direct, etc.

The controller also receives these commands when it's active and can add to the functionality for inputs like double-click, but if it's down the basic functionality still works entirely as a normal person would expect. You walk in to the room and see a knob on a switch plate, you turn the knob and the light brightness increases regardless of the state of the internet, my home server, or even my network as a whole.

The other major advantage compared to Matter/Thread is that it's not IP based so it's impossible for any Zigbee device to ever have a cloud dependency. No matter how much some marketing dingus might want to, it can not be ruined.

MostlyStable 7 hours ago||||
I tried to stick to this philosophy, specifically the part about it working even if my local automation server is down, for a long time. But I finally found an automation case where I wanted functionality where I could not simultaneously have the functionality and have the switch continue working when the server was off.

Specifically, I wanted the switch to turn on different lights depending on the time of day. In the evenings in early morning I wanted it to turn on the dimmer floor lamps, and during the day, I wanted it to turn on the brighter Center room light. This was not possible without turning the switch from a light turning on device, to an automation activating device.

I thought really long and hard about if I was worth the trade off, and in the end I decided that my automation server was only likely to be down for significant periods of time if the power was out and the lights weren't working anyways. If I run into a situation where this becomes a problem for me, I'll reconsider my decision. Which is a great thing about the local control. If I make a decision that I don't like I can just change it.

WalterBright 7 hours ago|||
The best devices have a local web interface so you can control them with your computer (like how you control your router).

Unfortunately, almost no lan connected devices sport such an interface.

kefabean 1 hour ago|||
Shelly switches are great for this. For example, I have one behind a regular wall light switch for the front porch. The physical wall switch always toggles, but the local on-device script turns it on (if it’s not on) at sunset, and off (if it’s on) at 10:30pm. All configurable from the local web server. Only needs ntp (your choice) in case of restart after power failure.
akifbayram 5 hours ago|||
There’s a pretty active ecosystem of ESP32 projects for HVAC systems. I’ve been working on a few that add Apple Home and Matter support with a local web interface for basic and advanced features. The web interface exposes things Apple Home or Matter protocols don’t represent well. Vane positions, different modes (dry, fan only), equipment diagnostics, remote sensor control, and even peer to peer communication for fully offline control (no WiFi needed). Plus it gets me a control path independent of the home automation stack. There’s a lot you can put on the device itself these days.

With another project, based on the ESP32-S3, I was able to cram grafana style scrubbable charts, full activity log, refrigerant circuit diagram, equipment topology, etc. I'm pretty excited for the ESP32-S31 since it's a nice jump up in performance.

WalterBright 7 hours ago|||
I've bought multiple internet radios over the decades. The demise of them is always its dependency on a remote server which enables setting which stations you want to listen to.

The remote server always goes away after a couple years go by, and the radio is only capable of playing the stations that were set as presets. Then the preset radio stations go offline, or the URLs for them change.

skittleson 5 hours ago||
same story as a meat thermometer someone told me about. the hardware outlives the server and still stops working. At least with opensource projects, if they are no longer maintained, its possible to fork and keep they going. hardware can be tough unless the device's firmware can be updated.
guhcampos 7 hours ago|||
This is absolutely great stuff, but I think I caught you red-handed there. Alexa Routines break your fundamental rule!
skittleson 7 hours ago||
Alexa is really convenient. i still think my rules still follow as long as core systems are still controllable offline. Which I really try to achieve through use of tablet on the wall (local wifi is still offline access in my head)
bluefirebrand 7 hours ago||
Basically any appliance is completely ridiculous to require an internet connection imo. When are you going to need to use a stove or dishwasher without being home? What value do you actually get from having a smart fridge that you can view analytics about from your phone?
skittleson 7 hours ago||
the only useful thing about a smart fridge is whether if it fails.... i hope it would make a noise. One trick i used was a cheap ble temp sensor in the fridge that would report to the BLE adapter of a tasmota device that sends mqtt messages to grafana. then i would get alerts if it was open or something broken. happened a few times!
wongarsu 5 hours ago||
My non-smart fridge makes annoying noises when the door is open too long, and slightly less annoying noises the first time you open it after a power cut causes it to get too warm (I believe it depends on interior temp when the power comes back on?). It might make noises when it breaks in other ways, that thankfully hasn't become relevant yet

I guess connecting to home automation would be useful for a fridge that's sufficiently out of the way that you might not hear it. But for the fridge in my kitchen the noises emitted by the fridge itself are enough for me

hinkley 3 hours ago||
I would be fine with an open spec for long term maintenance even if the company goes defunct. Or pulls the sort of bullshit Google did with Nest. Anyone involved in that who might be reading this can kindly go fuck themselves with a chainsaw. Twice.

And if I were the king of the forest, all medium to large appliances would run a controller board that is pin compatible with either arduino or raspberry pi so that the hobbyist community can refurbish devices that experienced a short. I won’t even make everyone pick a single standard. Two or maybe even three (ESP) are fine as long as we aren’t doing all custom just to count down a timer, run a pump, and sense water levels all at the same time.

Maybe not a space heater but dishwashers for sure. I’m divided stand mixers. Someone more invested could sway me either way.

thefz 2 hours ago|
AFAIK Shelly devices require internet only if you do require its usage, and are happy with local IPs or bluetooth connections otherwise. I have two, driving the irrigation system, that once configured were locked in a basement with no signal and are still to this day doing their scheduled task.
kefabean 1 hour ago|
Exactly, I firewall them off in their own vlan with only ntp (of my own choosing) to connect to.
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