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Posted by gmays 2 hours ago

What objective is reasoning solving?(alexwang.ai)
57 points | 26 comments
derefr 1 hour ago|
It solves for the same thing a "train of thought" (internal vocalization) solves for in the human brain: there's a lot of stuff you "know" as episodic memories of words you've heard/read, but haven't yet internalized via practice into reflex reactions. It's a lot faster and cheaper to acquire a memory of some words, than it is to acquire an entire new skill, so you end up picking up far more memories-of-words than concrete skills from a given training corpus.

Reasoning (i.e. bubbling those remembered words up into your mental context, and then using a special "trigger effectively arbitrary synaptic activations dependent on the content of the attention-masked context and an ongoing state" bridging reflex on them, a.k.a. "system-2 thinking") is how you leverage memories-of-words into useful behavior. Rather than executing native skills embedded into your synaptic weights, you're running a single very fancy native skill that acts as an interpreter for word-memory data, slowly and strenuously turning words you're holding in mind into more words (synthesis), or into associations to other memories (word-memories or otherwise), or into actions/outputs, etc.

(An especially useful "trick" of this system is planning, i.e. chaining the interpreter through "mere words" that conjure more "mere words" to mind until you end up at words that form a declaration of what you're about to do. You can then rely on a special part of the bridging reflex, namely the "instruction-following" reflex, to react in a way where your actions are constrained by the plan you've generated.)

fedpost 5 minutes ago||
I get that this is the goal, but having looked at reasoning traces they kinda read like baby babble. The model is just kinda sitting there restating the question and itself over and over. It'll sometimes kinda state/clarify assumptions but it feels nothing like actual train of thought
bwestergard 21 minutes ago||
Can you explain why your view, which is the opposite of the OP's, is correct?

"RL training directly raises the success probability , by spending a lot of compute on searching for successful paths and then training the model to reproduce them. The gains we credit to “thinking longer” come from the search we paid for during training, rather than at inference."

raincole 14 minutes ago||
Not mutually exclusive. LLMs are kind of like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Once some technique is discovered, it'd be part of the training process and becomes more efficient.
vova_hn2 1 hour ago||
I'm pretty sure that the current approach of baking in chain-of-thought reasoning into weights is not the end of the line. It just seems to accidental and ad-hoc.

P. S. The animated bird is truly magical!

HarHarVeryFunny 20 minutes ago|
I just realized the bird turns it's head to follow the mouse pointer.
vova_hn2 13 minutes ago||
Yes, and the animation is made using an interesting technique that I can't immediately figure out.

For example, what is this [0] or this [1].

The code is not obfuscated and seems well documented [2]. Maybe, I'll read it later or have an agent explain it to me.

[0] https://alexwang.ai/images/kea/head-fill.webp

[1] https://alexwang.ai/images/kea/body-feathers.png

[2] https://alexwang.ai/js/kea3d.js

piker 55 minutes ago||
> Consider the problem: “what’s 1 +2 +3 +⋯ +10”? One solution is to add the numbers one at a time: 1, 3, 6, 10, and so on up to 55. Another way is to pair them from the outside in: 1 +10, 2 +9, 3 +8, 4 +7 and 5 +6 each make 11, and five pairs of 11 make 55. Both of these paths land on the correct answer, 55.

Watching my son work through difficult math problems has forced me into this realization. In my head there is one "correct" path, and I often have to stop myself from interrupting his chain of thought. He often is just getting there a different way.

zmgsabst 48 minutes ago|
We might even formalize that concept and study how many different ways we can prove a claim, what they have in common, if two paths are mostly the same or very different, etc.

Much of modern foundations is about categorizing reasoning structures by such paths!

dogscatstrees 1 hour ago||
Wang's argument contradicts the view that intelligence necessarily improves through more reasoning and undermines any assumption that recursive self-improvement (RSI) will automatically converge toward greater intelligence.
jrflo 1 hour ago||
Content aside, that's a beautiful webiste
avereveard 1 hour ago||
Normalizes user voice to goal so the action has more chances to success you can see this on model that dont hide traces sending very badly spelled or incomplete sentences
niemandhier 1 hour ago||
That is how I have been thinking about LLM reasoning pretty much since it arrived.

I am not sure I support his statement about RL “searching for successful paths and then training the model to reproduce them”.

Don’t we train the model to use a certain method to explore the space in search for an answer?

As soon as you have tool calling and a way to verify your result, such as a theorem prover for example you are essentially running an optimization algorithm.

jebarker 58 minutes ago|
> Don’t we train the model to use a certain method to explore the space in search for an answer?

Not really - you just sample random high-probability completions and then the verifier tells you which ones to nudge the model towards and which to nudge away from. There's lots of clever ways you could improve the search process, but standard practice right now is just random sampling.

ryanschaefer 4 minutes ago||
Lot of Alex Wangs out there
akavi 1 hour ago|
My understanding of the math is weak (to say the least), but intuitively what I'm getting from this is:

1) Pretraining creates a bias _towards_ "correct answers" with each inference step

2) A longer walk is more likely to land in the correct region, given it's easier to verify you have the correct answer than to create it

3) RL selects the subset of walks that lands in the correct region and tilts the distribution in favor of such walks

4) By 2, that trains towards longer walks

...Is that correct?

EDIT: Wait, but this contradicts the post's claim that "The gains we credit to “thinking longer” come from the search we paid for during training, rather than at inference.". This requires that thinking longer is not at all causal for correct answers, which contradicts 2.

jebarker 1 hour ago|
Yes. One point worth making though is that pre-training trains the model to produce high probability completions - in practice, most of what it's trained on is a good completion as a human would judge it, i.e. it's not factually false data, so you get "creates a bias _towards_ "correct answers" with each inference step", but the model isn't really learning what correct or incorrect means in any way a human would consciously think about it.
trinari 47 minutes ago||
does that lead to much inside the box thinking by models? Do they try to follow the clearest path?
jebarker 30 minutes ago||
It depends on what you mean by “inside the box thinking”. In one sense, you are always mostly sampling high probability completions and they are going to be close to things that have been observed during training. Low probability completions will likely be low quality too. But, in a case where the context is forcing the model to generalize, I.e. interpolate in the latent space, the most probable completion may appear novel.
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