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Posted by ggcr 16 hours ago

Emacs in the Age of Magic(commandlinesystems.com)
257 points | 117 commentspage 2
ggcr 16 hours ago|
> RMS appeared in a recent video recounting his CSAIL work on a circuit analyzer in which he, and I'm paraphrasing, "didn't model the circuit as a system of equations to be solved, but rather approached it much as a human would" by applying a series of diagnostics.

bitter-lesson-pilled RMS before GTA VI

danielvaughn 15 hours ago||
"We may have felt safe bringing a gun to a knife fight, but now everyone's just sending a drone." Perfectly said. For those of us concerned about editor efficiency, it's hard to know where to go from here. For years I'd been working on a design tool that was inspired by Vim - entirely keyboard driven using mnemonic keychords. But LLMs really took the wind out of my sails, because eh, why bother now? Somewhere deep down I feel that it's still viable, because I want it to be true that perfectly deterministic tooling is still important. I just don't know if it will be considered important by everyone else.
adamddev1 15 hours ago|
> "I want it to be true that perfectly deterministic tooling is still important."

Of course it is. The AI coded apps only (debatably) work as end-user apps. They are thin little bumps on top of the software mountain. So much, including all the AI tools, depends on efficient, perfectly deterministic tooling.

It is almost hypocritical for AI enthusiasts to say we don't need to look at code anymore, while everything they do is build on piles and piles of infrastructure and tools that are carefully hard-coded, deterministic building blocks. The whole thing would come crashing down if everyone embraced vibe coding at every level.

I am just constantly baffled by people thinking that because we can make (crappy) end-user apps and one-off tools, no one needs to code anymore. Does anyone build solid tools and libraries? Does anyone still get pleasure from building a rock solid, snappy app?

I can feel all the AI coded apps and website turning to ever buggier sludge under my fingertips, and people are rejoicing that this is the way of the future.

I refuse. I will not touch Claude.

Schlagbohrer 4 hours ago|||
"rock solid, snappy apps"

Where were those apps even before AI came along? Every piece of software I use in my day across Windows and iOS is a slow, laggy, piece of resource hogging garbage, and that was true long before AI came along. I'm not convinced that AI makes this worse, it might make it much better.

skydhash 44 minutes ago|||
i used a ton of good apps on windows xp and 7 (sumatrapdf, codeblocks, notepad++,…), macos (things, bear.app, cleanshot,…) and Linux. But that was a bit before SaaS and their electron clients. Now I still maintain a lean desktop, but it’s mostly standalone software with no reliance on the “cloud”.
bitwize 1 hour ago|||
We used to have them—in the 2000s and before. These days not so much, but there appears to be a correlation between the push to use LLMs and a hockey stick in the enshittification curve.
rootnod3 3 hours ago||||
Same. That is why I am over in a corner happily coding away with Common Lisp and McCLIM to write myself an editor that mixes ACME UI with Lisp. Is it ultra-polished? Hell no. But it definitely keeps me sane and I know what I wrote.
danielvaughn 14 hours ago||||
I understand the sentiment. I do think it's important to experience it for yourself - not to convince you (I'm less and less convinced as the months go by) - but just to understand the visceral feeling that leads people into AI psychosis.

At times it feels literally magical. But more and more I feel like my brain has slumped onto the couch, lazily barking at a butler to do my bidding. Like a weird kind of professional brainrot.

adamddev1 14 hours ago|||
I read about a guy who was doing a documentary about crack addicts. They told him he needed to try it once to understand. He did. He then got addicted, lost everything and spent years on the street. Years later he finally got sober and finished the documentary.
bloopernova 4 hours ago|||
> But more and more I feel like my brain has slumped onto the couch, lazily > barking at a butler to do my bidding. Like a weird kind of professional brainrot.

One metaphor could be a car. You have to motivate yourself to get out and walk now, since a car can take you almost everywhere.

Like the people who circle the parking lot trying to get the parking space closest to the store entrance, you can live your life around the "convenience" and not see the problems with what you're doing. Or you can be the person who intentionally parks far away from the entrance so you get a few more steps in. Or the person who cycles to the store. Many metaphors murdered malignantly.

But since this is mental rather than physical, we might end up being couch potatoes like you said, flipping through channels rather than reading, or doing a hobby. (is "doing" a hobby correct? It sounds like "doing a business")

kragen 13 hours ago||||
> The whole thing would come crashing down if everyone embraced vibe coding at every level.

I think this is an interesting hypothesis and want to see what happens. I'm not really willing to go all the way to vibecoding, because I want to understand the system design. But I do have bots writing all the new code.

coldtea 14 hours ago|||
>Of course it is. The AI coded apps only (debatably) work as end-user apps. They are thin little bumps on top of the software mountain. So much, including all the AI tools, depends on efficient, perfectly deterministic tooling.

Most of that is also written via AI these days... Even the Linux kernel got that bug.

fock 12 hours ago||
and we'll see how that plays out. The way I loom at the chains of "AI" adds feature and feature needs 5 extra PRs over a year to fix it, I think this will be fun!
so-cal-schemer 28 minutes ago||
"We may have felt safe bringing a gun to a knife fight,

but now everyone's just sending a drone."

spapas82 15 hours ago||
I more or less agree with the article but we can move it one step further. Nowadays we don't even need text editors no matter how advanced they are. I am a VS Code user and I have not opened VS Code in more than 3 months because I don't need it anymore. Opening a text editor and editing code by hand seems like so ... yesterday.

This definitely is a new era and, personally, I love it! (Also I have broken my right arm so I can't write code even if I wanted to. I'm dictating this text.)

taude 14 hours ago||
I was saying almost this same thing to a coworker. I'm building something that's like Emacs, but for agents, and it's mostly a Markdown-forward tool for managing all the agents and agent coding harnesses, and it's a vendor-agnostic things....If anything it's like a newer, faster, fancier org-mode, but knows how to inject all the right context into all the agentic projects.

This, after configuring Emacs to talk to LLMs. But that's not the right angle now for me....

bloopernova 4 hours ago||
LLM-assisted development really is like Literate Programming. I haven't used LP in a while, but I wonder how useful that workflow would be now. Almost like the reverse of LP, lots of agent work punctuated with smaller bursts of human-created text.
johanvts 13 hours ago|||
Emacs is not an advanced text editor, it's more like an OS. I run Claude Code inside emacs (with the claude-code-ide package). I seriously think LLMs will usher in a new golden era for emacs because you can now reap all the benefits without having to learn elisp.
pmontra 13 hours ago|||
I did, with another package, but running Claude inside a terminal has no glitches and I seldom have to edit code anymore. I'm using emacs almost only to edit md files in which I make Claude write analysis and plans. I make changes, add clarifications, we iterate. Most of the times the chat is enough. I remember that I discovered that I broke Ruby autocompletion only weeks after I did (I investigated the cause.) Maybe notepad would be enough but I stick to emacs. I am about to get to 40 years of marriage with it.
0c3ca83 9 hours ago|||
Yeah. AIs let you exist without learning. A great advance for the brainless.
q4y2u35uk 6 hours ago||
If everyone is just vibe coding elisp, who is left to learn it deeply and push it forward as a language and ecosystem? Or is AI just going to do that too. Very unfortunate world we live in
BeetleB 14 hours ago||
I mostly use Emacs not to write code, though. In fact, getting Claude to do explorations for me and output its findings as org docs is fantastic.
everybodyknows 14 hours ago||
> sealed up transistors can reproduce the same outputs given the same inputs with unerring precision. The power to unambiguously differentiate an on- versus an off-signal -- the binary "digital" -- might seem trivial, but is 100% the reason why we're so comfortable handing over the reins to computers.

Is the author not familiar with the ECC memory business?

atrus 13 hours ago|
I'm glad I'm not the only one who see this comment a lot, and hates it. Computers are only "deterministic" because they have about 47 layers of error correction between you and reality.
mark_l_watson 3 hours ago||
Great read, thanks.

I spend a lot of time thinking about AI’s effect on me, as a person. TLDR: it’s a mixed bag: for non-coding things, AI has helped me learn and understand the world better. For coding, using AI coding harnesses and agents feels like an addiction.

I will say that I have used AI coding tools to make my Emacs setup the best it has ever been in 40+ years using Emacs.

It is weird to be using tools that sometimes make me think more about myself and their effect on me than the actual technical work I am doing.

Navel gazing.

skydhash 13 hours ago||
> Whither now, we ask -- now that we have, even to my jaded eye, a god machine that makes short work of all the stuff we emacsers believed we were faster at than people using lesser tools. Editing speed, customization, the expressiveness of LISP: every advantage we claimed vanished the moment we stopped typing and started telling the AI what we wanted.

Is that a common thought? I learned vim, then emacs, and various other tooling not because I wanted to increase my speed competitively, but just to reduce my frustration with the gap between thinking and doing. Using something like VSCode to code is like playing on a laggy piano (if that exists). You think about I need to quickly update the signature of this function and it turns into a mouse/keyboard chaotic dance with your eyes focusing all over the place. It's like doing a three legged race.

With emacs and vim, I think about the code, notice that I want to change to change something, and can do the necessary actions (almost) subconsciously. Which means, I never stop thinking about the code. It may be longer or faster than someone using another software, but the advantage for me is to rely mostly on muscle memory while I'm thinking deeply about some problems.

Another thing is multiple buffer/views at once. This is why I don't like editors that have vim mode, because it's a pain to browse code with them, especially when you want a global view of something. With both emacs and vim, I can have multiple related files/sections of files/output of commands visible at once. Like how you would want physical papers and lay them on a desk.

rgoulter 10 hours ago||
Yeah, I think framing in terms of 'effort' or 'flow' might make more sense than 'speed' here.

If you expect that you can complete some task just from the keyboard, then the idea of having to use the mouse interrupts what you're doing.

The original post gives "stage and commit in git" as an example. Magit is much nicer than CLI, since you can quickly invoke the actions you want; it's less effort than typing out the full command on the CLI. -- With LLM coding agents, getting an LLM agent to make a commit is slower than doing it yourself in magit (if all you're going to do is stage and commit), but it's much less effort.

thunderpaper 11 hours ago||
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vkgcr 4 hours ago||
This reads like someone getting AI psychosis from building one-shot prototypes. Many such cases.
globular-toast 15 hours ago||
> The irony is rich that AI has turned Stallman's goal of software freedom on its head. Having your computer do whatever your imagination can think up -- that's real freedom. The only catch is you'll have no idea how it works. No one does.

Why are people so sure this will keep scaling? We're still so far away from me being able to get anything even remotely close to what I can imagine using a free model running on hardware I own.

Then you need to remember there are a lot of very powerful people currently invested in not letting us have any of this, so I really don't think it's time to call free software irrelevant yet.

plant-ian 10 hours ago|
Oh they __WANT__ you to have it... but you gotta $$$ for it... every month. Anything your imagination can think up... just put your card # in... that's American freedom!
globular-toast 6 hours ago||
Yes, exactly, renting isn't freedom.
anthk 15 hours ago|
>ut at the time, rules-based programming was still novel enough to be considered a viable approach to AI.

Pick MLite from https://t3x.org and you'll get it pretty fast. Or with invariants under Lisp. Or its weird cousing, CLIPS, born from Common Lisp clauses.

On code quality, Neomacs (an Emacs clone in Rust, it has Elisp support) crashes a lot. And by a lot, I mean once you hit the menu with the mouse, it segfaults.

>he only catch is you'll have no idea how it works. No one does.

Is not about the rules, but the relations. It's a network of clauses, and not something akin to if-then-else with flow controlling. There's no actual "flow".

evalexec 4 hours ago||
> hit menu with the mouse

I didn't got a crash on Linux/Wayland. And I didn't tested on MacOS or Windows.

What's your device envionment?

Could you please submit a GitHub issue to neomacs? (better with a minimal reproducible script and log `RUST_LOG=INFO ./neomacs` can output the debug log)

iLemming 15 hours ago||
> Neomacs crashes a lot

It's a highly experimental thing someone decided to mess around with, without any prior design discussion with any Emacs core devs. It's like a forty-minute-old baby and you're asking it to parallel park without crashing. What's your point here, I don't get it?

GNU/Emacs is incredibly stable. It's one of the most reliable pieces I've ever had; I sometimes run it for months without ever restarting. Which I can't say about pretty much any app on my system. Including the system itself.

anthk 15 hours ago||
Obvious. Clueless vibecoding creates disasters.
rurban 48 minutes ago|||
It should have be written in a memory safe language instead.
evalexec 3 hours ago|||
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