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Posted by scottjg 1 day ago

Reverse engineering my Coway air purifier to ditch the cloud(scottjg.com)
655 points | 192 commentspage 2
radicality 5 hours ago|
I’m quite happy with my MedifyAir MA-125. Just mentioning it and the brand since I don’t see it often mentioned. I’ve had mine running for around 4 years continuously at this point. It feels good quality too and marked/sold as commercial, and since it’s quite large with a large fan, it’s quiet.
Cu3PO42 7 hours ago||
I wanted to do the same with Phillips air purifier that uses AWS IoT. Unfortunately, it seems the engineers did their job: an eMudhra-signed certificate was not accepted and the AWS endpoint also uses mTLS, so I wasn't able to MITM the connection.

Their ESP also uses Secure Boot... I don't know that there isn't a way to break in, but I wasn't able to find one short of hardware notification :/

deadbabe 9 hours ago||
I love how it has become a trend now to take some device that required a cloud subscription, reverse engineer it, then connect it to your own server you control.

Suddenly there are so many products to play with that would have previously been undesirable! This is one of the good things AI has enabled.

jerf 9 hours ago|
Enjoy it while you can. You can see the AI companies have already started the process of locking us out of this, with Opus 5.5.

God forbid our fans, our fans of all things, might be broken of their dependencies on the internet. The plebians can't be allowed to do that. Every relay must be cloud-connected so it can be monetized and disabled for whatever dumb ass reasons someone might want to disable it.

Zopieux 9 hours ago|||
Just use abliterated/uncensored self-hosted models. This is why we need them and the hardware to run them. Yes, the API models which will further close the walled gardens will evolve faster than the open-weights ones, but I'm hopeful about the community as a hole rejecting this status quo.
elephanlemon 9 hours ago||
Is there hardware you would suggest that you can actually buy today? Pricing is out of control right now, if you can even find stock.
ed312 8 hours ago||
An RTX4090 or a 128gb macbook can generate a pretty reasonable number of tok/sec. Those are not cheap, but within the realm of serious hobbyist. I really hope the AI bubble deflates a bit so consumers can get more powerful hardware at the low thousand $ range.
orangecat 6 hours ago||||
The other problem is that the manufacturers can also use AI to improve their DRM and do red-teaming to fix "vulnerabilities" before release. Right now they're not because it actually takes some effort but eventually they'll be able to just tell their agents "make sure no unauthorized clients can connect". I expect that several years from now there will be a sizeable market for pre-2027 hackable devices.
vrmiguel 8 hours ago||||
> locking us out of this, with Opus 5.5

I hear this a lot but I've never hit this.

For weeks now I've been working on a shared recompilation project of Switch 1 and 2 games, and Opus 5.5 has handled that with no issue.

Over 10 supported Switch 1 games, and 3 supported Switch 2 games, and never once has Opus 5.5 denied anything

drnick1 7 hours ago|||
> I hear this a lot but I've never hit this.

Opus 5.5 will absolutely refuse to touch anti-cheat systems in video games, even when the end game isn't to cheat but to work on Linux compatibility or to bypass/spoof the checks to enable gameplay.

mschild 8 hours ago||||
OpenAI and Anthropic models seem to be the most affected by these barriers, from my own experience.

Mistral, QWEN, and other models (read non-American) tend to have little to no restrictions. There were some tasks where I was actively trying to sabotage my own local network and Mistral had no issue helping. Anthropic and OpenAI refused outright or had to be "convinced" but would often hit further barricades along the way.

tjoff 8 hours ago|||
Sure but as easy it is to hack these devices as easy it is to harden it.

So this only works on products that was developed before ~now.

The solution is to not buy crap regardless if you can make it work or not.

mschild 7 hours ago|||
> So this only works on products that was developed before ~now.

You're under the assumption that the companies producing these give a shit about security. It'll probably increase a bit but I doubt it will be by much. If they have shipped devices that leave the doors wide open for almost any intrusion, they won't invest engineering/AI time and money to make these better than before and certainly won't review the code that the model spit out beyond a quick check if the promised base functionality still works.

tjoff 6 hours ago||
I'm not. But no AI will produce anything that is as bad as the state of current products.
drnick1 7 hours ago|||
> So this only works on products that was developed before ~now.

The Home Assistant hackers are some of the most persistent reverse engineers that I have seen. Almost as much as game crackers and cheat developers.

skrtskrt 4 hours ago||||
Coway sells tons of devices with no smart/connected features. Their best-reviewed ones for home air purification are not connected. Everyone will be better served by supporting such product lines or pressuring companies to create them more than they will be by reverse engineering "connected" features no one ever needed.
comprev 8 hours ago||||
Apparently there's a website which already addresses your concerns about fans - nothing else - only fans.
r_lee 9 hours ago|||
at least current models are safe, glm is very capable in terms of RE
deanc 6 hours ago||
Has anyone managed to pull this off with the Levoit air purifiers. I've isolated mine on a seperate VLAN at home but it requires internet connection to control.
cmd123 7 hours ago||
Corsi-Rosenthal box is way cheaper and only connects to the 60hz.
settsu 7 hours ago|
A CR box certainly has its place, but for many people that place just isn't in their nicely decorated home.
xgulfie 6 hours ago||
This gauche air filter doesn't even have an app smh
pugworthy 6 hours ago||
I'm guessing here that the Apple Home app and integration are all local, not using Apple's Home cloud?
Night_Thastus 6 hours ago||
For anyone considering getting an air purifier, please do not get a Coway (or similar brands).

The air purifier market is full of garbage because consumers don't understand how these products work or what their tradeoffs are.

The root problem is that these products are designed the wrong way around. They almost all use custom-fit HEPA filters. That sounds great, HEPA is good, right? Except HEPA is really not good for household air filtering. HEPA is so fine that even air struggles to move through it. It's also far more fine than the common contaminants (dust and pollen) need. Because it's so fine, you need a VERY powerful fan to move any air through it, which means the purifier will be very loud.

Finer filters are not better. There are two things you want to optimize for:

1: CADR - clean air delivery rate. This is essentially how much air you can move through the filter per hour, multiplied by how much of the contaminant you can catch each time that air passes through the filter.

2: Volume - It doesn't matter how amazing your air purifier is if it sounds like a tornado. If you only run it for a few minutes before getting annoyed, the purifier is not doing its job. Every moment it is OFF it is not doing its job. Many purifiers try to use sensors to determine when to run the filter, but this fundamentally a flawed approach and just means you have low quality air 99% of the time.

The solution to these problem is a less-fine filter. For dust and pollen, something like MERV13/14 is absolutely fine. It will catch most of those on each pass, and because air moves through it so much easier - you can run the same air through it many times more in the same period of time. This results in an air purifier that is whisper quiet, keeps the air far cleaner, and can use off-the-shelf furnace air filters that are VERY cheap compared to custom-fit HEPAs which may stop being made the moment that purifier product line inevitably ceases to exist. (Note: This is mainly true in the US, said filters are harder to find elsewhere)

Combine MERV13/14 with off-the-shelf PC case fans (which have been optimized for decades to be as quiet and long-lasting as possible) and the result is an easily-maintainable, quiet, highly-effective purifier.

NOTE: People dealing with VOCs/odors need an entirely different approach that HEPA won't really solve either, for that you need activated charcoal which will run out almost instantly in the amounts common purifiers come with. You need a gigantic block of the stuff to last more than a month or two.

tclancy 6 hours ago||
Any resources you could share here? I bought a Rabbit air filter years ago and it seems like it does fine. But since I did something similar to the OP here and started tracking my Awair air quality monitor in real time, I’ve noticed we have wild VOC levels in our roomy house and I can’t sort out what causes spikes, especially overnight. Some of it is probably due to the insulating and weather stripping mania I went through a while back and I’ve looked into getting an exhaust fan (whatever those things are called) to alleviate it but would like to know the source(s).
seizethecheese 6 hours ago|||
Thank you for this. I've been looking into buying air filters and would have made this mistake. (HEPA sounds good!)

I'm confused by your dust and pollen comment. What about PM2.5, is this mostly dust or are you not that concerned about this vs dust?

Night_Thastus 1 hour ago||
MERV13 will do PM2.5 very well. It can do smaller, like smoke and PM1, but not as well.
seanw444 3 hours ago|||
This is very helpful. Thank you.
fetus8 6 hours ago|||
Are there any example builds you could point me towards?
Night_Thastus 6 hours ago|||
I use CleanAirKits, but you could build your for far less if you prefer.
kevmo 6 hours ago|||
Corsi-Rosenthal Box is probably the premier DIY

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corsi%E2%80%93Rosenthal_Box

booty 3 hours ago||
I don't think I've ever said this on HN, but: delete your post. It's nonsense.

    Because it's so fine, you need a VERY powerful 
    fan to move any air through it, which means the 
    purifier will be very loud.
You've never used one. These Coways are known for pleasant sound and quiet operation.

"For a purifier of its capabilities, the Mighty is notably quiet" - https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-air-purifier...

Alternatively, just take a glance at the ~30K reviews on Amazon. - https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01728NLRG

    It doesn't matter how amazing your air purifier is if it 
    sounds like a tornado. If you only run it for a few minutes 
    before getting annoyed, the purifier is not doing its job. 
Top speed is about 53dB. The other speeds range from "barely noticeable" to "is this thing on?"

    Combine MERV13/14 with off-the-shelf PC case fans (which 
    have been optimized for decades to be as quiet and long-lasting 
    as possible) and the result is an easily-maintainable, quiet, 
    highly-effective purifier.
More nonsense. My oldest Coways's been in service for ~10 years including ~5 years of services running 24/7/365 near my cat's litterbox.

For a given CFM, with all other things being equal, larger fans (like the ones in Coways) are going to be easier than a bunch of smaller fans. Though, if using an array of Noctuas or similar, I'm sure it could be done.

    Many purifiers try to use sensors to determine when to 
    run the filter, but this fundamentally a flawed approach 
    and just means you have low quality air 99% of the time.
If you put the Coway on "Auto" and fart next to it, it will spin up to a higher speed for a few minutes. That seems like pretty good detection to me. You do seem to get false positives though/// sometimes it spins up for apparently no reason, so I usually just leave it on low.

    The solution to these problem is a less-fine filter. For dust and 
    pollen, something like MERV13/14 is absolutely fine.
This is certainly true. Though a lot of people buy these to help with pet allergies and want/need HEPA. My understanding is that a lot of the harmful stuff in wildfire smoke also requires HEPA-level filtration, though I might be wrong.

    off-the-shelf furnace air filters that are VERY cheap compared to 
    custom-fit HEPAs which may stop being made the moment that purifier 
    product line inevitably ceases to exist.
Once again, you're making this stuff up. Now, it's a good point in general -- nobody should buy a rando air purifier without looking into this aspect. Admittedly, standard furnace air filters do have the edge here of course. Corsi-Rosenthal style boxes are going to give you guaranteed filter availability from now until the collapse of civilization. And if you're filtering air in a large or dirty space, then yes, Corsi-Rosenthal boxes are the winners in CADR-per-dollar. I'm building one for my garage workshop before pollen season.

But have you actually taken 30 seconds to look on Amazon and noticed the dozens of third-party filters made to fit the Coways? It's like buying Bose headphones. Yeah, you'll need to replace the earpads eventually, but they've been using the same earpads for like 15 years and there's an ecosystem of cheap 3rd-party versions... not 100% ideal, but also not a problem. As you note, maybe the situation's different outside of the US.

noja 9 hours ago||
I have a light with a controller on the cord: brightness up/down, power. I can't use a smart plug with it because it always defaults to off. Any ideas?
bluGill 9 hours ago|
Cut the controller off and use the smart plug to control brightness. You might need to open it up and replace the power supply.

I'm going to guess that you will spend more money on this than just buying a light that has smart features compatible with your smart home ecosystem. You can't mix two smart systems on one cord - this has never worked. Where to put the smart is a tricky question as there are pros and cons to every answer, but in general the smarts need to be in exactly one place or things won't work.

king_crimson 8 hours ago||
How would one control brightness via a smart plug?!
fred_dawg 8 hours ago|||
Smart outlets that support dimming. You also need a dimmable bulb, but these are generic and cheap compared to a smart bulb.
fusslo 8 hours ago|||
turn it on/off really fast

The relay clicking is a feature so you can tell the brightness audibly :)

gamesbrainiac 7 hours ago|
I can't express how happy stuff like this makes me.
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