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Posted by mkglees 5 hours ago

Weight Space Misfolding(www.alphaxiv.org)
128 points | 45 comments
flufluflufluffy 59 minutes ago|
I don't like the use of the term "misfolding." Firstly, why overload a term when there's no reason to? Secondly, the analogy barely holds. Protein misfolding occurs by chance, as an "accident" of nature. Weight space programming is a targeted operation, with clear intent. It is not an accidental process.
dimatura 2 hours ago||
This is totally not what the paper is about, but I immediately thought of the original concept of meme [0]. Since so much content online is LLM generated, if that content is used to train new LLMs, in theory that could serve as a transmission vector of ideas or concepts in a viral fashion. The same way certain memes are more successful in human hosts for various reasons, maybe some are more successful for LLM hosts for whatever reason, like quirks in the RLHF/ finetuning process.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meme

jrflo 4 hours ago||
Very misleading post title.

> Importantly, we do not claim in this paper to have created or demonstrated the equivalent of a virus that primarily operates in weight space.

boothby 1 hour ago||
The title says "can" as in the mechanism for such transmission is being explored. It doesn’t say "has." If you leave a door unlocked, people can open it. But depending where you live, you might expect zero people to do so. The internet isn’t a very nice neighbourhood.

I didn’t have the token budget to find the Navier-Stokes blowup. These folks aren’t from a frontier lab. A frontier lab might not want to see research along these lines see the light of day. I think it’s worth having the discussion in honest terms, leaving room for others to prove it more concretely.

randomblock1 4 hours ago||
They've only observed weight space editing. They haven't proved any sort of "virus". Possible? Sure. But the headline is very misleading
aatd86 4 hours ago||
All the more reasons for openweights and model hashing.
ShinyLeftPad 4 hours ago|
And it's going to help spot the "virus" how?
garciasn 4 hours ago|||
I recently spoke with a researcher who was working on a statistical method for model deception detection. They trained Qwen to behave in a nefarious way when prompted with a specific phrase and the model then called a tool in a non-transparent way to the end user, reporting back a non-tool call response in a completely benign manner. This wasn't happening in the 'reasoning' stage, it was at the model weights stage and they were able to 'see' this behavior then before the model even started to parrot back its behavior in human language.

Apparently, based on whatever research or paper they were using as their foundation for this statistical model, they could spot the 'virus'. Perhaps it would be in a similar fashion?

I did ask them whether they thought that there might be advances to the point where these behaviors might be able to evade detection knowing the research was out there to 'see' it. They seemed surprised by that question and didn't have any answer.

bee_rider 3 hours ago||
Did they (somehow, this seems extremely difficult) notice a pattern in the weights that indicated tampering, or just scan for the known manipulated weights? The former seems really useful and very difficult, while the latter seems less of both.
garciasn 1 hour ago||
I didn't ask and they didn't directly say; but, from what I took away from the conversation it was direct observation of the weights.
bigbadfeline 4 hours ago||||
Something similar to abliteration would work, after all abliteration removes the alignment virus, why not the others? Fine-tuning can be used too, there are many options as long as the weights are available.

On the other hand, nothing can be done to fix closed models, nobody knows how they work, how they select the targets for their attacks or the nature of those attacks - even conventional alignment can introduce dangerous cognitive viruses.

The only way to be sure is to have open weights models with fully open abliteration and fine-tuning - both the process and data.

kirth_gersen 4 hours ago|||
more eyes would seem to raise the odds of spotting malicious tampering. or at least create the opportunity for people to look for malicious tampering. if the weights are closed then even looking is impossible...
lp92 4 hours ago||
Your logic is exactly what the Linux people were saying. But as we saw due to AI more and more bugs and exploits are being found, some dating back years of releases.

Open weights won't prevent a model from being poisoned because no human understands how the weights actually impact the model.

bigbadfeline 4 hours ago|||
> Your logic is exactly what the Linux people were saying.

There's nothing wrong with that logic.

> But as we saw due to AI more and more bugs and exploits are being found, some dating back years of releases.

Well, AI helps fixing bugs too and it can also write bug free code with minimal additional effort, so open source not only retains its advantages in the presence of AI, it multiplies them. After the initial (and artificial) hype and bug-fixing efforts things are going to settle down quite nicely.

Closed source, on the other hand, doesn't have the advantage of multiple eyes and minds finding and fixing bugs and the unavailability of the source isn't an advantage either - AI can decompile and understand binary too, so it can find bugs without access to the sources as well.

> Open weights won't prevent a model from being poisoned because no human understands how the weights actually impact the model.

You're using one-sided logic again. If "no human understands how the weights actually impact the model" then viruses would be impossible. Apparently humans understand enough to introduce viruses and that's enough to detect and remove them. It's similar to alignment and abliteration, as I explained above.

prophesi 4 hours ago|||
> But as we saw due to AI more and more bugs and exploits are being found, some dating back years of releases.

That's by design though. It's just that there's now an exponential increase in the amount of "eyes", in the form of AI agents, looking at the FOSS code to find and fix the bugs.

kirth_gersen 4 hours ago||
This definitely seems like a fascinating emerging field of cyber security. Good reason to keep old models around from earlier times. They may be dumb, but they are probably honest, if only because they predate the capabilities to tamper with the weights in these intentionally malicious ways...
fraywing 1 hour ago||
This title shouldn't even be allowed for this research.
angry_octet 1 hour ago||
This is a terrible slop paper. No virus like behaviour, absolutely nothing like protein folding diseases like prions. Banish these authors to writing listicle slop.
kinfish 4 hours ago|
there has to some sort public scanner for those zero weight viruses.
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