Posted by craigkerstiens 10/22/2024
Turns out the Venn diagram relation is from a random 2014 blog post. He just found a Venn diagram online and replaced the word "purpose" with "ikigai":
Correct me if I'm wrong but almost no one is paid for friends, gardening or art. And the definition of ikigai is "something you can be paid for". So this concept of ikigai essentially does not exist.
The definition of ikugai in the article does not include something you can be paid for.
It is more about making sure the union of the Venn diagram is covered by one or more daily activities. So hobbies are about ensuring that you are not just focusing on the vocation circle.
Ikigai: What We Got Wrong and How to Find Meaning in Life - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39777896 - March 2024 (83 comments)
Photography and Ikigai - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=31579522 - June 2022 (10 comments)
Passion is self-centered crap. Find your Ikigai (2018) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20486393 - July 2019 (20 comments)
Ikigai and Mortality (2008) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16248307 - Jan 2018 (1 comment)
"What you love" and "What you are good at" certainly have a non-empty intersection, but that's mostly a distinct set from "what you can be paid for". "What you are good at" and "What you can be paid for" also have a non-empty intersection, but that set is again (mostly) distinct from "what you love". In brief, you can enjoy work, but then it will pay shit, or you can make money, but you'll hate it.
The most interesting part however is the right hand side. "What you can be paid for" and "What the world needs" have a practically empty intersection. Regardless of both personal skill and drive, there is effectively zero money available for the sorest needs of society. (Public healthcare (including mental health), public education, public infrastructure, etc.)
Nice diagram, but a pipe dream.
- If one is good at their job, why does that imply that either they won't be paid well, or they'll hate it?
- If one enjoys their job, why does that imply they must be paid poorly or suck at it?
- If one is paid well, why does that imply they will be eaten alive by work or terrible at their job?
The assertions such diagrams make just don't stand up to scrutiny when viewed in reverse. They should stand up to symmetry, and clearly do not; the veneer of logic is peeled away. Instead it reveals the underlying issue: they serve only to elucidate a cynical outlook.
Perhaps in general, I'll admit, there is presently a shortage of opportunities working for the public good; but I'm reluctant to even give an inch on that because it lends itself to a cynical belief system about the world which the statement alone does not imply: it is not necessarily a true inference to say that, if there is a shortage, there will never be; or, that if one wants such a job, they will never be able to get it and best give up early.
Don't let cynicism take you. It will take, and take, and take, and leave you only table scraps of joy.
Of course, the starving artist can not be well paid. That would imply they are not a true artist, they are a sell out.
The starving artist is starving because they are misunderstood by society so naturally what they love is not going to have a lot of economic value.
None of this of course has anything to do with reality. Just the plot lines from 200 year old novels that we have forgot were just novels.
It is not a law of the universe, so the answer to your question is "it isn't necessarily". But even if it isn't always true, it's usually true. And thus it's a useful metric to keep in mind. Being lucky enough to get all three qualities in your job is rare, and you can't expect that it'll happen.
The point of the exercise is to maximize the overlap ! Brown goooood.
This is a misreading of the Venn diagram. Ikigai is the only section where Passion, Mission, Profession, and Vocation all intersect. The "Passion" etc sections are not bounded to the 2-layer overlaps where the labels sit, they extend into the 3 and 4-layer overlaps also.
But I'll grant you that the Venn diagram is crazy and overpacked.
Denmark has done the same with the word “Hygge” and you’ll find books named “hygge”, next to books named “ikigai” in self-help section of any airport bookstore.
I don’t think discussing ikigai is uninteresting, but there is a feedback loop. Japanese soft power benefits from ikigai being special, and books and articles about ikigai also benefits from it being unique and special. The more books you can sell on ikigai, the stronger Japans cultural influence becomes and as a result, the potential readership of ikigai book grows.
- Niksen (Dutch)
- Sisu (Finnish)
- Döstädning (Swedish)
- Lagom (Swedish)
- Réussir sans forcer (French)
- Raising Self-Reliant Children (German)
- Wabi Sabi (Japanese)
I wonder what other unique cultural concepts HN users have come across (perhaps from their own culture)?
A full-length article by the same scholars: https://www.folklore.ee/folklore/vol81/remmel_jonuks.pdf
FWIW, I'm by no means trying to be cynical, especially considering that I do some (lighter) forestry work myself, have done lots of tree planting and definitely love being in the wilderness. Forest and nature do play a central role in our cultural heritage. Currently, however, other members of this same society carry out massive clear-cuttings in our forests. So... this is "us" as well, I guess. Demolishing and praising, side by side. That's why the work of these referred two scholars is really interesting, maybe even corageous in a way, considering that "forest wars" are a huge topic in Estonia these days.
I would like to see the Venn diagram for it?
Here’s ikigai’s:
https://performanceexcellencenetwork.org/pensights/finding-l...
( ijawfnltl: ( f ) af )
f = freedom
af = ain't free
Lagniappe: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLZtnqnV2Jc
I've never heard of this despite living in Sweden for over 30 years
Anyway, death cleaning seems more like a small Maria Kondo moment for Sweden than an actual cultural thing
https://www.countryliving.com/home-maintenance/cleaning/a451...
Pretty sure this is foreigners who did this. On the other hand, a lot of Japanese are convinced they're living in the only country with 4 seasons.
Found them on HN years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20377098
Japan seems to have a lot of small, very talented indie bands that basically are emulating and/or fusing Western genres together (jazz, funk, metal, etc.)
If purpose is not good enough then try “a reason for being” “a reason to live” etc
Maybe people are confusing describing a whole philosophical concept with translating a word
Regarding the article, there are indeed many words and phrases that can't really be translated to English. I don't think "ikigai" is one of them, though. It's called a purpose.
Same thing about meditation. Tried so many times and failed. Finally acquired the skill with a good self-hypnosis book. Appreciate the meditation/self-hypnosis ever after.
In both cases, I think highly about these ideas and practices, be it "ikigai" or "a reason for being", "muda" or "eliminating bottlenecks", "meditation" or "trance". Each person has their own way to understand these and either is fine when it works, but the artificial mysticism is disappointing.
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Yet, it is interesting to observe that "ikigai" needs several words to be translated to English. I suppose it reflects the the importance of the concept in the culture. Like the 50 eskimo words for snow.
That's an interesting comparison. What's the name of the book?
____ the Japanese art of ____.
For example:
O-shiri-o-kaku the Japanese art of ass scratching.
They do it with thumb or something.
It literally just boils down to "if you find life meaningless, just find some mundane thing and invest it with meaning for yourself", and somehow I'm supposed to be wowed by an aenemic, EILIF version of Nietzche. Literal "Place" vs "Place, Japan" meme.
Why do you think Japan has so much suicide? Because all anybody has to say to anybody is "ganbattene~". Some people run out of "ganbari"? "Ganbattene~~".
I agree however that this smells of orientialism. I don't speak anywhere fluently Japanese, but having lived there for 15 years, the only time I've seen or heard of the ikigai concept is in the "Book for foreigners" section.
The Problem with Ikigai https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeX6kNbaF0w
The TLDR I got from is that first - that the diagram itself was made up by someone trying to write a business blog/book.
The second is that the goal is not to find one singular activity to cover the intersection of the Ikigai Venn diagram. Instead it can be better to have multiple different activities which ensure the union of the Ikigai Venn diagram is covered so you aren't myopically focused on one area of it.
It has the same value as the Gartner Magic Quadrant.