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Posted by LorenDB 10/24/2024

Cable companies ask 5th Circuit to block FTC's click-to-cancel rule(arstechnica.com)
238 points | 207 commentspage 2
Suppafly 10/24/2024|
oh no, those poor cable companies.
andrewla 10/24/2024||
It's hard to see the steelman case for this. The transcript of their objections at the initial hearing are on page 13 of the transcript [1]

> The FTC's highly prescriptive proposal requiring numerous disclosures, multiple consents and specific cancellation mechanisms is a particularly poor fit for our industry. Our members offer services in a variety of custom bundles. They're provided over a wide range of devices and platforms. Consumers, for example, frequently subscribe to a triple play bundle that includes cable, broadband and voice services. They may face difficulty and unintended consequences if they want to cancel only one service in the package.

> The proposed simple click-to-cancel mechanism may not be so simple when such practices are involved. A consumer may easily misunderstand the consequences of canceling and it may be imperative that they learn about better options. For example, canceling part of a discounted bundle may increase the price for remaining services. When canceling phone service, a consumer needs to understand they will lose 9-1-1 or lifeline services as well. Especially important, low-income consumers could be deprived of lower-cost plans and special government programs that would allow their families to keep broadband service.

I mean, except for the 9-1-1 point, I guess I feel like all of those policies -- the bundling in particular -- should ALSO be disallowed.

[1] https://www.ftc.gov/system/files/ftc_gov/pdf/ftc-negative-op...

Workaccount2 10/24/2024||
Ironically you can counter all these arguments almost perfectly with the inverse:

"Customers may not know what they are signing up for or may only want to sign up for one service rather than the bundle"

But of course, they only feel the canceling part would be bad, not the signing up part (which is also ridden with dark patterns and deception to fool customers).

Terr_ 10/24/2024||
Exactly, if anything the risks to the consumer of entering into a new contract-for-a-service are overwhelmingly greater than the risks of canceling the same. (Especially for a Disney+ account :P [0] )

[0] https://www.axios.com/2024/08/21/disney-plus-court-case-arbi...

filereaper 10/24/2024|||
Not so sure about the 9-1-1 point.

>"All wireless phones, even those that are not subscribed to or supported by a specific carrier, can call 911. However, calls to 911 on phones without active service do not deliver the caller’s location to the 911 call center, and the call center cannot call these phones back to find out the caller’s location or the nature of the emergency. If disconnected, the 911 center has no way to call back the caller."

Source: https://www.911.gov/calling-911/frequently-asked-questions/

Seems they're deliberately distorting their responsibilities.

kelnos 10/24/2024||
That sounds like something to fix, then.

Requiring carriers to enable whatever side-channel is necessary to transmit location info to the 911 PSAP shouldn't be a heavy lift.

The callback issue seems harder to resolve, but even if a handset has no assigned phone number, there are other ways to address it (e.g. IMEI). Carriers should be required to build in a capability to make this work.

bigfatkitten 10/28/2024||
> Requiring carriers to enable whatever side-channel is necessary to transmit location info to the 911 PSAP shouldn't be a heavy lift.

Carriers can and they should.

> The callback issue seems harder to resolve, but even if a handset has no assigned phone number, there are other ways to address it (e.g. IMEI). Carriers should be required to build in a capability to make this work.

Carriers can't, because the 3GPP standards do not make this possible.

kelnos 10/24/2024||
The one exception to frictionless cancellation could be a big modal warning the customer that cancelling will hamper their 911 service, if what they're doing will actually do so.

These are spurious objections. They're grasping.

jmyeet 10/24/2024||
Quick primer on how the courts have been successfully weaponized here.

The Federal court system is divided into circuits [1]. Circuits are further divided into districts (eg Eastern District of Texas). In sparsely populated, large areas there districts may be further subdivided into divisions. The idea is you shouldn't need to drive 6 hours to get to a Federal judge.

Each district has an Appeals Court that sits above the District Court so that's what "Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals" means. Above all the circuit appeals courts sits the Supreme Court. Additionally, each circuit has a single Supreme Court judge who is available to hear emergency motions from appeals court rulings. That judge can rule on the motion or refer the matter to the entire Supreme Court.

Judges reflect the politics of the state they're in because of the blue slip system [2]. Presidents nominate judges to Federal courts. A Senator from that judge's state by tradition (ie there's no law for this) essentially can veto that nomination.

Federal district court judges have the power to make rulings and issue injunctions that affect the entire country.

So in Texas we have a perfect storm for judge shopping and a forum to push conservative views through lawsuits. Texas is a large state so the districts are divided into divisions. A division might only have 1-2 Federal district court judges. So if you nominally establish a business in Amarillo, TX you know with a high degree of certainty what judge you'll get when you file a lawsuit. With certain questionable tactics, you can know pretty much 100% what judge you "randomly" get assigned.

This is called "judge shopping".

It's why all the patent cases are litigated in the Eastern District of Texas. It's why any anti-abortion lawsuit always ends up in front of Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk [3] in the Northern District of Texas (eg [4]).

So the Fifth Circuit is conservative because Texas, Alabama and Louisiana are conservative. Conservative judges are usually viewed as more friendly to lawsuits attacking any sort of government regulation. Even if the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals doesn't rule in favor of the cable companies, the matter will go straight to the Supreme Court. This current Supreme Court has shown themselves highly likely to take up the case and intervene, probably in favor of cable companies.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_federal_judicial...

[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blue_slip_(U.S._Senate)

[3]: https://www.txnd.uscourts.gov/judge/judge-matthew-kacsmaryk

[4]: https://www.npr.org/2023/04/07/1159220452/abortion-pill-drug...

roshin 10/24/2024|
That's because the US wasn't designed to have unelected federal bureaucrats create laws for the entire country. Every state should make their own laws, and then those state's courts could determine if the law is legal or not.
sitkack 10/24/2024|||
They can't because those same corporate and conservative players will use the Commerce Clause to prevent any meaningful legislation at the state level. You get to choose the color of the billy club of submission but not how it is held or its target.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commerce_Clause

https://constitutioncenter.org/the-constitution/articles/art...

Your ideology is leaking.

JoshTriplett 10/24/2024|||
Exactly. The standard playbook is to attack attempts to do this at the federal level by arguing it's a state decision, and attack attempts to do this at the state level using the excessively broadened Commerce Clause. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn was a horrible overreaching mistake, as was every other expansion of the Commerce Clause.

(There are different playbooks for passing laws that curtail personal rights, by arguing to do it at both the state and federal level, or removing federal prohibitions on something and then enacting it on a state by state basis while trying to pass the reverse at the federal level.)

elevatedastalt 10/24/2024|||
The Commerce Clause serves no master. It can be used for federal overreach in either direction. For eg. without the a lot of regulatory behavior that the Congress does today is by relying on the Commerce Clause.
jmyeet 10/24/2024||||
That's ahistorical. The Federal court system was established by the Judiciary Act of 1789 [1], the same year the constitution came into force (which established the Supreme Court).

Whenever people bring up "states rights" with objectively false claims, one needs to consider the history of such a claim. It was most prominent in the Secession Crisis and the obvious follow up question is "states rights to do what?" because the answer is "to own people as property".

Google is free.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_judiciary_of_the_Unite...

rodgerd 10/24/2024||||
Was the US designed to have a couple of judges in Texas determine the law for the whole country?
SideQuark 10/24/2024|||
> That's because the US wasn't designed

Yes, it was. The Founding Fathers created this system.

Simply use google instead of making up claims.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 10/25/2024||
If this gets canceled, it's hilarious. There isn't a single reason beside "defrauding" consumers that this shouldn't be law
Lasher 10/24/2024||
Anyone who has ever tried to cancel Sirius-XM knows how desperately we need this law.
howard941 10/24/2024|
They fixed it. It was easy as pie 3 months ago.
yibbix 10/25/2024||
#1 reason I use proxy cards to pay for subscriptions, all I have to do is pause or delete the proxy card and then I won’t have to worry about complicated cancellation processes
AStonesThrow 10/24/2024||
Canceling Cable (Kieran Culkin on SNL) https://youtu.be/V5DeDLI8_IM?si=-O1bWCTrdLGK6gCH
jauntywundrkind 10/24/2024||
The 5th Circuit has a bunch of ultra radical appointees, who among other things ordered ACA to be eliminated.

ExTwitter's new ToS require cases to be held in their jurisdiction, in Northern Texas, which has particularly wild people.

This is absurd court shopping/forum shopping & this court is slated to unmake a huge huge huge part of the USA. The Supreme Court has chastised them numberous times, but they are going to undo so so much.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Court_of_Appeals...

mlindner 10/24/2024||
Worth mentioning that companies like Starlink make it trivial to cancel service.
spl757 10/24/2024|
Won't somebody please think of the shareholders?
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