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Posted by retskrad 10/25/2024

Smartphone buyers meh on AI, care more about battery life(www.cnet.com)
324 points | 331 commentspage 2
brailsafe 10/25/2024|
Maybe it's just me, but I'd prefer to spend less of my life on my phone in general. Seems like first-party integration of AI features is just a ploy to persuade me to use it more, since the appeal of novel apps or software features has long since died out.
rsynnott 10/25/2024||
Today in incredibly obvious things...

Smartphones are an absolute graveyard of fads; remember the 3D screen phones, the phones with projectors, and so forth? They generally go nowhere. I suspect 'AI' on phones will be similar.

Overwhelmingly, what people want out of phones is "like my current phone, but with better battery life and maybe a better camera." Previously 'faster' was also a concern, but modern phones are largely Good Enough.

ip26 10/25/2024||
There's a lot we quietly take for granted. Supposedly the NPUs on phones were originally added to let the phone identify objects in your photo library. When shopping for phones, I tend to shop for better battery and camera... but I also wouldn't go back to a photo library without identification.
rsynnott 10/25/2024||
Yeah, I should possibly qualify; by ‘AI’ on phones I would expect that the average person polled understands LLMs, image generation, that sort of thing. OCR, image classification, etc, I doubt they’re thinking of that when answering this; that wouldn’t even have been marketed as ‘AI’ until a couple years ago.
changing1999 10/25/2024|||
Even camera improvements are overblown. My usage and photo quality did not improve much since ~iPhone 6. Taking decent travel photos, selfies, etc - I was happy with the results 10 years ago.

Technically, I understand the difference in the technology, I just don't know who needs that vs who gets excited about new features for a brief moment.

jsbisviewtiful 10/25/2024|||
> Even camera improvements are overblown.

I would love to take a photo using my smartphone that doesn't look pixelated, blurry and or over-processed. Maybe asking too much considering smartphone sensors can't compete with DSLRs in some situations, but I'm always baffled with how dark and desaturated some of my photos turn out on my smartphone, as well.

changing1999 10/25/2024|||
Me too! If anything, iPhone photos became more over-processed over the last decade.
jajko 10/25/2024|||
Few years ago there was usual 'Apple look' on Instagram where every photo was taken at golden hour, all skin blemishes and moles ironed out into oblivion. Everybody was doing it in some form, but Apple was (is?) going furthest, into territory of painting more than representing reality (I compared my Samsung ultra with wife's iphone and its consistently this... but generally all reviews I saw few years ago stated the same).

Now pendulum has swung so all go for 'realistic look', but I expect people actually want rather milder version of above.

Phone photos look OK on phones, but enlarged even the top contender from current dxomark show very much how hardware limits work. Its just not presentable, maybe apart from very bright scenes. Now I wouldn't go bashing phones per se, its marvel what they achieve from those tiny plastic lenses and some CPU time. And they are always there. But any low hanging fruit in phone photography was picked up long time ago by whole market, what lies ahead are slow computational improvements, coupled with very slow increase in size and thickness of camera section of phones to capture more light.

shinycode 10/25/2024|||
I’m often surprised that my iPhone photo app show old photos in the widget that look stunning and were taken with the iPhone XS and 11 PM. Night photos are better now but day photos stalled a long time ago. I find joy taking some shots with halide or photon in trueRaw where all processing is removed and grain is present. It gives an authentic look … so all HDR stuff is often too much
rsynnott 10/25/2024||||
I think some people do genuinely care about the camera improvements; personally anything I’ve used from the iPhone 7 on has been _fine_, but I’m not a demanding camera-user.
eleveriven 10/25/2024|||
These days, manufacturers seem to focus on more niche improvements (like for mobile gamers)
chihuahua 10/25/2024|||
My favorite one (in the sense of "most useless") is Amazon's Fire Phone, which had multiple cameras so it could figure out where your face is relative to the screen, which would enable some crazy 3D effect.
x0x0 10/25/2024|||
I would kinda like search that works over my thousands of photos
243423443 10/25/2024||
Google Photos has that. But I guess you mean locally?
x0x0 10/25/2024||
Google photos search doesn't work well at all for me.

Even things like "[my dog name] beach" isn't reliable.

Or things like I use photos as notes. It doesn't reliably recall things like cheese when I take pictures of cheese in various stores to remember what is sold where. Not even the name of the cheese; just cheese. Ditto spices.

mattlondon 10/25/2024||
Don't use the name - "Mr Floppy at the beach" is meaningless, but "dog at a beach" will probably yield a lot more.

I've found google photos search to be pretty good, and if it can't find something usually the map-mode is enough to pin it down (e.g. go to the beach where you took the photo and it shows you the photos from there)

x0x0 10/25/2024||
Thanks for the suggestion.

I did just check, and "dog at beach" generates sub 20% recall for me. I go to the beach weekly with my dog, take lots of photos because I'm a dork, and that first query skips many weeks.

Also, I did add my dog as a known / named pet under the explore tab, which is why I thought the name should work.

I can make it work by picking out the beach via geo, but I think the whole thing illustrates how much better this could be. I'd like to be able to get responses to queries like

* [pet name] at [beach X]

* [pet name] with sand on face

* dead seal, or even just dead animal (pics on beach)

* seaglass (recall is poor there too until I manually added to a photo album)

* dent in car

* [spice name] (I take pics of spices to know which stores offer what)

etc etc. The only way I manage the thousands of photos I have now is by carefully sorting into hundreds of albums, which google also doesn't support well.

Amongst the many many deficiencies of the app (which, tbf, does work extremely well as a read-through cache and seems to back things up very well), it likes to surface spotlights of dead people and pets. Which is not at all what I want proactively surfaced.

mattlondon 10/26/2024||
I think the classification engine is likely just like 500 common object classifications. It's quite old and has been around for ages so I don't think it is currently as sophisticated as modern LLMs etc. So "sand" and "face" are probably fine, but "sand on face" might be tricky. No idea though - just guessing from my own personal experience

It was also hobbled quite hard near the start as they had a scare with searches for "gorilla" accidentally returning pictures of black people so they have probably turned all the safety knobs they have up to 11, even if that impacts recall.

eleveriven 10/25/2024||
They’ve all been hyped, only to be forgotten as consumers consistently revert to what they actually care about
behnamoh 10/25/2024||
I've been trying the iOS Beta 18.2 and here's my impression of Apple Intelligence:

It's not bad, it's really really bad.

The image clean-up feature is utterly useless, and I think it's one of the areas where we can clearly see the difference between a company for whom Generative AI is an afterthought (Apple), and the competition. I paid $1500 for the new iPhone Pro Max and a great part of the deal was the Apple Intelligence support, but frankly, I might as well switch to Android at this point because I'm really disappointed at Apple's take on AI. I'll probably wait until the official Apple Intelligence is introduced but tbh I don't think there will be much improvements over this version.

And as for Siri: It's as stupid as it ever was. I ask it to convert something from lbs to kg and it responds "there's no music playing". If anything, its natural language comprehension has degraded.

Currently, there's no context awareness, so I still can't ask Siri "how do I respond to this email?".

Really, the only thing that "works" is the ChatGPT feature that describes an image you send it. Anything Apple-related is bonkers. It's really embarrassing.

xvector 10/25/2024|
Apple has always sucked in AI and they have never formed the culture necessary to enable and attract top ML talent. They developed Siri years ago and have stagnated since.

As far as the future of compute goes, Meta seems like it has a much more compelling argument with the Orion glasses and their investment in AI.

behnamoh 10/25/2024|||
> Apple has always sucked in AI

Yes, but Apple fans always respond by saying "...but Apple has been using ML in much of the OS for years, you just don't see it..."

I really want Apple to be better at this, but Generative AI is too uncontrollable for a control-freak company.

fhd2 10/25/2024|||
They didn't even develop Siri, they acquired it. Doesn't seem like they've done all that much with it beyond integrating and marketing it, but I could be wrong.
tracerbulletx 10/25/2024||
For it to have value they need to effectively apply it for something useful and have it be reliable, not just go hey we have llms. like if i could say siri share my location with my wife and text her "im on my way" oh and send her a pic of what im looking at through my sunglasses. And it worked 99% of the time, and could figure out to do it through google maps because she has android, that would be great.
chankstein38 10/25/2024||
And, to me, none of that even sounds like AI. Just an assistant app, smart glasses, and google maps not being shit. I can't think of a reason, other than the reasons I already use ChatGPT and the AI object eraser, that I would need AI on my phone. Most of the crap they pump out is just a solution looking for a problem.
xp84 10/26/2024||
Exactly. I remember imagining naively in 2010 that the introduction of Siri meant I would be able to just ask my phone to do simple things like update settings or manipulate the built-in apps using natural language, things chatGPT could easily do even a year ago if it had the needed API hooks. Including doing things on a schedule, compound sentences, etc. Instead we got a very brittle text adventure that can neither correctly transcribe your words, let alone understand your intention, and it’s never even changed.

“Siri get me directions to McDonald’s” ‘I found this on the web for you:’ <serp for “Direct In Donald”>

Or it would get directions to a McDonalds in a different state. Or say “I’m sorry, I don’t see a McDonald in your contacts.”

notatoad 10/25/2024||
The phone manufacturers have to know this, right? they've got market surveys and focus groups and internal dogfooding programs. they all know that a half-baked chatbot experience is going to sell zero phones.

All this AI marketing push has got to be because they think investors are stupid, and they can fool the market into thinking they're doing an AI.

lopkeny12ko 10/25/2024||
At this point I would pay a premium to have replaceable batteries again.
Syonyk 10/25/2024||
My Sonim XP3+ has a hard shell replaceable battery and lasts a week and a half on a charge. It's not even a very expensive device, it's under $150! ;) But it is a flip phone running Android Go with no apps...

That said, I think the tradeoffs being made right now are probably the right ones. Apple's latest devices have gone to an electrically released sort of adhesive (versus the older pull-strip removeable adhesive, which is a big step up from the "glue it in" approach many vendors take), and for a given volume, you get more battery if you can rely on the phone to protect it from damage - which is why almost everything with an internal battery uses some variety of pouch cell. They're quite a bit more fragile than the hard-cased batteries, but you get a lot more battery in the volume than you do with the hard cased ones.

As long as it's not incredibly irritating to replace the battery, I'm fine optimizing the daily use thing (battery life in a given phone size) over the once-every-few-years thing (replacing the battery).

ghaff 10/25/2024||
Getting someone to replace a battery every 4 or 5 years really isn’t onerous. And for iPhones the magnetic batteries that attach to the back are a pretty effective way to stretch battery life a bunch more hours if you need to.
jollyllama 10/25/2024||
Field-swappable is a must
JadeNB 10/25/2024||
What surprises me about the story is how weak the effect is, which is stripped by the title mangler: only 25% of users report not finding AI features helpful.
mouse_ 10/25/2024||
I would pay extra to -not- have AI in my phone. AI belongs on mainframes, out of my way when I don't want it.
xp84 10/25/2024|
This is an underrated take. Apple, especially, wants to leverage their excellent silicon to do “AI” locally in the name of privacy purely as a marketing advantage, but the tradeoffs there are major (burning my battery instead of data center AC power, plus, my phone will never be better or faster than some big metal GPU with fans), and the privacy issue could just as well be solved by doing a good job designing the server side architecture and educating people that unlike when talking to a person, it’s trivial for a model to “not learn anything from” a conversation, and that that’s in fact automatically how it works unless you’re logging the conversations and purposely feeding them back in.
xvector 10/25/2024|||
You can use their cloud instead of local compute if you'd like: https://security.apple.com/blog/private-cloud-compute/

Building a privacy aware cloud is a lot harder than you think it is. Apple is going the whole way with remote attestation, hardware root of trust, software BOM, etc.

https://security.apple.com/blog/pcc-security-research/

xp84 10/26/2024||
They are, and I actually believe that they’ve done a good job of all that stuff (though suspect that using their weird Mac hardware in the DC can’t possibly be a truly superior option to the NVIDIA hardware the entire rest of the world is using, but let’s assume I’m wrong).

But are you suggesting I will be able to flip a switch to use their cloud for all the same AI stuff instead of my battery-powered phone? That would be really welcome news! I haven’t used any of the betas so I know nothing about how “Apple Intelligence” works.

xvector 10/27/2024||
> But are you suggesting I will be able to flip a switch to use their cloud for all the same AI stuff instead of my battery-powered phone?

Yup! That's the idea. Compute negligible tasks run locally, but for requests that would hog battery and compute (or even be impossible to run on your iPhone), the data center will be used!

> though suspect that using their weird Mac hardware in the DC can’t possibly be a truly superior option to the NVIDIA hardware

So they are doing this for two reasons:

1. They get remote attestation and hardware root of trust when using their own hardware. No need to load proprietary blobs from Nvidia, introduce a new unvetted third-party supply chain, etc

2. Apple Silicon is actually much more cost effective than Nvidia's GPUs for inference. You can get a 48GB Apple Silicon Mac for like $4k and run large models - it's $40k for similar VRAM from Nvidia. I imagine Apple's costs are much lower than $4k as well.

JadeNB 10/25/2024|||
The problem is that remote solutions to the privacy problem inevitably involve my trusting someone else's privacy assurances. On-device processing reduces the trust required, although of course it doesn't eliminate it.

The common response to this is to point out that I'm trusting Apple or Google anyway just by using their phones, which is true, but (1) since phones are directly accessible to security researchers, there's more potential to find out about malfeasance if data is exfiltrated from the phone in a way that it shouldn't be, and (2) even if I have complete trust in Apple or Google, I also have to trust that they'll be able to protect my data from malicious actors, and, the less data I give them, the less I have to worry when they fail.

xp84 10/26/2024||
Thanks for a well-reasoned take on why someone would prefer this side of that tradeoff. Fair points.
AdamN 10/25/2024||
AI is a means to an end - it's the end that people want (or don't want). For example people like fast and accurate spell check - they don't care whether AI did it or not.
alexashka 10/25/2024|
There's a fundamental tension between what customers want and what providers want.

Providers want to drip feed and charge for 'improvements' indefinitely.

AI is the next drip feed.

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