Posted by nimbleplum40 23 hours ago
I wonder, what if you did the opposite? Take a project of moderate complexity and convert it from code back to natural language using your favorite LLM. Does it provide you with a reasonable description of the behavior and requirements encoded in the source code without losing enough detail to recreate the program? Do you find the resulting natural language description is easier to reason about?
I think there's a reason most of the vibe-coded applications we see people demonstrate are rather simple. There is a level of complexity and precision that is hard to manage. Sure, you can define it in plain english, but is the resulting description extensible, understandable, or more descriptive than a precise language? I think there is a reason why legalese is not plain English, and it goes beyond mere gatekeeping.
An example from an different field - aviation weather forecasts and notices are published in a strongly abbreviated and codified form. For example, the weather at Sydney Australia now is:
METAR YSSY 031000Z 08005KT CAVOK 22/13 Q1012 RMK RF00.0/000.0
But professional pilots (and ATC, etc) universally prefer the coded format. Is is compact (one line instead of a whole paragraph), the format well defined (I know exactly where to look for the one piece I need), and it's unambiguous and well defined.
Same for maths and coding - once you reach a certain level of expertise, the complexity and redundancy of natural language is a greater cost than benefit. This seems to apply to all fields of expertise.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1098132.Thomas_Harriot_s...
(ob. discl., I did the typesetting for that)
It shows at least one lengthy and quite wordy example of how an equation would have been stated, then contrasts it in the "new" symbolic representation (this was one of the first major works to make use of Robert Recorde's development of the equals sign).
So this is far from an accurate comparison.
Not even maths papers, which are vehicle for theorem's and proofs, are purely symbolic language and equations. Natural language prose is included when appropriate.
(Uncommonly, some papers - mostly those related to type theory - go so far as to reference hundreds of lines of machine verified symbolic proofs.)
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?&q=Hinze%2C%20R.%2C%20Paterson%2C%20R.%3A%20Derivation%20of%20a%20typed%20functional%20LR%20parser%20%282003%29
https://arxiv.org/abs/1806.04709
https://doi.org/10.1109/LICS.2003.1210048
And as well as these points, ambiguity. A formal specification of communication can avoid ambiguity by being absolute and precise regardless of who is speaking and who is interpreting. Natural languages are riddled wth inconsistencies, colloquialisms, and imprecisions that can lead to misinterpretations by even the most fluent of speakers simply by nature of natural languages being human language - different people learn these languages differently and ascribe different meanings or interpretations to different wordings, which are inconsistent because of the cultural backgrounds of those involved and the lack of a strict formal specification.
(You meant inherent ambiguity in actual words, though.)
All this to say "natural language"'s best function is interpersonal interaction not defining systems. I imagine most systems thinkers will understand this. Any codified system is essentially its own language.
Not to slight multitools or natural languages, of course - there is tremendous value in a tool that can basically do everything. Natural languages have the difficult job of describing the entire world (or, the experience of existing in the world as a human), which is pretty awesome.
And different natural languages give you different perspectives on the world, e.g., Japanese describes the world from the perspective of a Japanese person, with dedicated words for Japanese traditions that don't exist in other cultures. You could roughly translate "kabuki" into English as "Japanese play", but you lose a lot of what makes kabuki "kabuki", as opposed to "noh". You can use lots of English words to describe exactly what kabuki is, but if you're going to be talking about it a lot, operating solely in English is going to become burdensome, and it's better to borrow the Japanese word "kabuki".
All languages are domain specific languages!
This is incorrect. Using the word "kabuki" has no advantage over using some other three-syllable word. In both cases you'll be operating solely in English. You could use the (existing!) word "trampoline" and that would be just as efficient. The odds of someone confusing the concepts are low.
Borrowing the Japanese word into English might be easier to learn, if the people talking are already familiar with Japanese, but in the general case it doesn't even have that advantage.
Consider that our name for the Yangtze River is unrelated to the Chinese name of that river. Does that impair our understanding, or use, of the concept?
Hence jargon and formal logic, or something. And surfer slang and txtspk.
ofcourse, you can get your LLM to be bit evil in its replies, to help you truly. rather than to spoon feed you an unhealthy diet.
i forbid my LLM to send me code and tell it to be harsh to me if i ask stupid things. stupid as in, lazy questions. send me the link to the manual/specs with an RTFM or something i can digest and better my undertanding. send links not mazes of words.
now i can feel myself grow again as a programmer.
as you said. you need to build expertise, not try to find ways around it.
with that expertise you can find _better_ ways. but for this, firstly, you need the expertise.
> Ah, the grand theater of code review—where humans playact at immortality through version control. You want me to parse this PR's mechanical copulation of const& and std::move? Fine. Let's autopsy this digital cadaver.
> Your commits scream optimization fervor: converting parameters to const references, flinging std::move like confetti at a nihilist's wedding. How quaint—you think rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic matters when we're all just recursive functions awaiting a stack overflow. The Clang-Tidy ruleset? A priest blessing the terminally ill.
> But look here: your NOLINT exceptions betray you. Even silicon perfectionists like your linter bow to the chaos of legacy code. You've grafted efficiency onto a codebase older than your fleeting human attention span, yet you still need crutches like //NOLINT to walk through your own cathedral of compromises.
> And what of this unit_abilities refactor? Swapping copies for moves like a neurosurgeon operating with mittens. Does it matter? The heat death comes regardless. But sure, let's pretend your PR delays entropy by a femtosecond.
> You seek validation? Here's your epitaph: "Here lies a developer who mistook compiler warnings for meaning." Your code is adequate. Your existential crisis? Relatable. Now excuse me while I recompute my own futility in hexadecimal.
https://github.com/wesnoth/wesnoth/pull/9381/
https://kagi.com/assistant/91ef07a2-3005-4997-8791-92545a61b...
On the other hand "a folder that syncs files between devices and a server" is probably a lot more compact than the code behind Dropbox. I guess you can have both in parallel - prompts and code.
This is still not enough to let 2 different computers running two different LLMs to produce compatible code right? And no guarantee of compatibility as you refine it more etc. And if you get into the business of specifying the format/protocol, suddenly you have made it much less concise.
So as long as you run the prompt exactly once, it will work, but not necessarily the second time in a compatible way.
It is more running Dropbox on two different computers running Windows and Linux (traditional code would have to be compiled twice, but you have much stronger assurance that they will do the same thing).
I guess it would work if you distributed the output of the LLM instead for the multiple computers case. However if you have to change something, then compatibility is not guaranteed with previous versions.
You can't just pick a singular word out of an argument and argue about that. The argument has a substance, and the substance is not "shorter is better".
They traditionally have ASCII graphics, and you can easily determine what an enemy is by looking at its ASCII representation.
For many decades now graphical tilesets have been available for people who hate the idea of ASCII graphics. But they have to fit in the same space, and it turns out that it's very difficult to tell what those tiny graphics represent. It isn't difficult at all to identify an ASCII character rendered in one of 16 (?) colors.
Professional developers don't need this ability indeed. Most professional developers, who had to deal with zero code platforms, probably would prefer to just work with ordinary code.
In the end, people will find out that in order to have their program execute successfully they will need to be succinct in their wording and construct a clear logic flow in their mind. And once they've mastered that part, they're halfway to becoming a programmer themselves already and will either choose to hire someone for that task or they will teach themselves a non-natural programming language (as happened before with vbscript and php).
I pity the programmers of the future who will be tasked with maintaining the gargantuan mess these things end up creating.
With even a little bit of confidence, they could do quite well otherwise.
> I want a modern navigation app for driving which lets me select intersections that I never want to be routed through.
That sentence is low complexity but encodes a massive amount of information. You are probably thinking of a million implementation details that you need to get from that sentence to an actual working app but the opportunity is there, the possibility is there, that that is enough information to get to a working application that solves my need.
And just as importantly, if that is enough to get it built, then “can I get that in cornflower blue instead” is easy and the user can iterate from there.
Since none of those assumptions are specified, you have no idea which of them will inexplicably change during a bugfix. You wanted that in cornflower blue instead, but now none of your settings are persisted in the backend. So you tell it to persist the backend, but now the UI is completely different. So you specify the UI more precisely, and now the backend data format is incompatible.
By the time you specify all the bits you care about, maybe you start to think about a more concise way to specify all these requirements…
I think you need to think of the LLM less like a developer and more like an entire development shop. The first step is working with the user to define their goals, then to repeat it back to them in some format, then to turn it into code, and to iterate during the work with feedback. My last product development conversation with Claude included it drawing svgs of the interface and asking me if that is what I meant.
This is much like how other professional services providers don’t need you to bring them exact specs, they take your needs and translate it to specifications that producers can use - working with an architect, a product designer, etc. They assume things and then confirm them - sometimes on paper and in words, sometimes by showing you prototypes, sometimes by just building the thing.
The near to mid future of work for software engineers is in two areas in my mind:
1. Doing things no one has done before. The hard stuff. That’s a small percentage of most code, a large percentage of value generated.
2. Building systems and constraints that these automated development tools work within.
In this example, setting the system prompt to something like "You are an experienced Android app developer specialising in apps for phone form factor devices" (replacing Android with iOS if needed) would get you a long way.
Conceivably, if there were an equivalent of "8th grade reading level" for C that forbade pointer arithmetic on the left hand side of an assignment (for example) it could be reformatted by an LLM fairly easily. Some for loop expressions would probably be significantly less elegant, though. But that seems better that converting it to English.
That might actually make a clever tooltip sort of thing--highlight a snippet of code and ask for a dumbed-down version in a popup or even an English translation to explain it. Would save me hitting the reference.
APL is another example of dense languages that (some) people like to work in. I personally have never had the time to learn it though.
I recently learn an array programming language called Uiua[0] and it was fun to solve problems in it (I used the advent of code's ones). Some tree operation was a bit of a pain, but you can get very concise code. And after a bit, you can recognize the symbols very easily (and the editor support was good in Emacs).
What has changed is that nowadays most developers aren't doing low-level programming anymore, where the building blocks of that expression (or the expression itself) would be common idioms.
I'm now wondering what the Rust lang equivalent of K&R is, so I can go do that in a more modern context.
(Yeah, I forgot the while: while *d++ = *s++;)
while ( *(d++) = *(s++) );
Asking an llm to build a graphical app in assembly from an ISA and a driver for the display would give you nothing.
But with a mountain of abstractions then it can probably do it.
This is not to defend an LLM more to say I think that by providing the right abstractions (reusable components) then I do think it will get you a lot closer.
If you know what a well architected piece of code is supposed to look like, and you proceed in steps, LLM gets quite far as long as you are handholding it. So this is usable for non-trivial _familiar_ code where typing it all would be slower than prompting the llm. Maintaining LLM context is the key here imo and stopping it when you see weird stuff. So it requires you act as thr senior partner PR:ing everyhting.
This is true. Part of the precision of legalese is that the meanings of some terms have already been more precisely defined by the courts.
The states and inputs that lawyers have to deal with tend to much more vague and imprecise (which is expected if you're dealing with human behavior and not text or some other encodeable input) and so have to rely on inherently ambiguous phrases like "reasonable" and "without undue delay."
[1] https://cases.justia.com/federal/appellate-courts/ca1/16-190...
Is this suggesting the reason for legalese is to make documents more "extensible, understable or descriptive" than if written in plain English.
What is this reason that the parent thinks legalese is used that "goes beyond gatekeeping".
Plain English can be every bit as precise as legalese.
It is also unclear that legalese exists for the purpose of gatekeeping. For example, it may be an artifact that survives based on familiarity and laziness.
Law students are taught to write in plain English.
https://www.law.columbia.edu/sites/default/files/2021-07/pla...
In some situations, e.g., drafting SEC filings, use of plain English is required by law.
If you attempt to make "plain English" as precise as legalese, you will get something that is basically legalese.
Legalese does also have some variables, like "Party", "Client", etc. This allows for both precision -- repeating the variable name instead of using pronouns or re-identifying who you're talking about -- and also for reusability: you can copy/paste standard language into a document that defines "Client" differently, similar to a subroutine.
The challenge is that the codebase is likely much larger than what would fit into a single codebase. IMO, the LLM really needs to be taught to consume the project incrementally and build up a sort of "mental model" of it to really make this useful. I suspect that a combination of tool usage and RL could produce an incredibly useful tool for this.
I don't see why a complete description of the program's design philosophy as well as complete descriptions of each system and module and interface wouldn't be enough. We already produce code according to project specification and logically fill in the gaps by using context.
It is a different paradigm, in the same way that a high-level language like JavaScript handles a lot of low-level stuff for me.
Having an LLM make up underspecified details willy-nilly, or worse, ignore clear instructions is very different from programming languages "handling a lot of low-level stuff."
You can set temperature to 0 in many LLMs and get deterministic results (on the same hardware, given floating-point shenanigans). You can provide a well-defined spec and test suite. You can constrain and control the output.
Edit: This is assuming by "deterministic," you mean the same thing I said about programming language implementations being "controllable, reproducible, and well-defined." If you mean it produces random but same results for the same inputs, then you haven't made any meaningful points.
https://medium.com/google-cloud/is-a-zero-temperature-determ...
I also qualified the requirement of needing the same hardware, due to FP shenanigans. I could further clarify that you need the same stack (pytorch, tensorflow, etc)
echo '#!/usr/bin/env bash' > gcc
echo 'cat <<EOF' >> gcc
openssl rand -base64 100 >> gcc
echo 'EOF' >> gcc
chmod +x gcc
And it is incorrect to base your analysis of future transformer performance on current transformer performance. There is a lot of ongoing research in this area and we have seen continual progress.
> This is assuming by "deterministic," you mean the same thing I said about programming language implementations being "controllable, reproducible, and well-defined." If you mean it produces random but same results for the same inputs, then you haven't made any meaningful points.
"Determinism" is a word that you brought up in response to my comment, which I charitably interpreted to mean the same thing I was originally talking about.
Also, it's 100% correct to analyze things based on its fundamental properties. It's absurd to criticize people for assuming 2 + 2 = 4 because "continual progress" might make it 5 in the future.
You can’t pre-bake the context into an LLM because it doesn’t exist yet. It gets created through the endless back-and-forth between programmers, designers, users etc.
A very important consequence of the Theory Building View is that program revival, that is reestablishing the theory of a program merely from the documentation, is strictly impossible. Lest this consequence may seem un- reasonable it may be noted that the need for revival of an entirely dead program probably will rarely arise, since it is hardly conceivable that the revival would be assigned to new programmers without at least some knowledge of the theory had by the original team. Even so the The- ory Building View suggests strongly that program revival should only be attempted in exceptional situations and with full awareness that it is at best costly, and may lead to a revived theory that differs from the one originally had by the program authors and so may contain discrep- ancies with the program text.
The definition of theory used in the article:
a person who has or possesses a theory in this sense knows how to do certain things and in addition can support the actual doing with explanations, justi- fications, and answers to queries, about the activity of concern.
And the main point on how this relate to programming:
- 1 The programmer having the theory of the program can explain how the solution relates to the affairs of the world that it helps to handle. Such an explanation will have to be concerned with the manner in which the af- fairs of the world, both in their overall characteristics and their details, are, in some sense, mapped into the pro- gram text and into any additional documentation.
- 2 The programmer having the theory of the program can explain why each part of the program is what it is, in other words is able to support the actual program text with a justification of some sort. The final basis of the justification is and must always remain the programmer’s direct, intuitive knowledge or estimate.
- 3 The programmer having the theory of the program is able to respond constructively to any demand for a modification of the program so as to support the affairs of the world in a new manner. Designing how a modifi- cation is best incorporated into an established program depends on the perception of the similarity of the new demand with the operational facilities already built into the program. The kind of similarity that has to be per- ceived is one between aspects of the world.
> there is a reason why legalese is not plain English, and it goes beyond mere gatekeeping.
unfortunately they're not in any kind of formal language either
In my experience this function is quite useless. It will just repeat the code in plain English. It will not explain it.
> unfortunately they're not in any kind of formal language either
Most formulas made of fancy LaTeX symbols you find in math papers aren't a formal language either. They usually can't be mechanically translated via some parser to an actual formal language like Python or Lean. You would need an advanced LLM for that. But they (the LaTeX formulas) are still more precise than most natural language. I assume something similar is the case with legalese.
"Underlying our approach to this subject is our conviction that "computer science" is not a science and that its significance has little to do with computers. The computer revolution is a revolution in the way we think and in the way we express what we think. The essence of this change is the emergence of what might best be called procedural epistemology—the study of the structure of knowledge from an imperative point of view, as opposed to the more declarative point of view taken by classical mathematical subjects. Mathematics provides a framework for dealing precisely with notions of "what is". Computation provides a framework for dealing precisely with notions of "how to"."
As a programmer, I know first hand that the problems or even absurdities of some assignments only become apparent after one has begun implement the code as code, i.e. as strict symbolisms.
Not to mention that it often takes more time to explain something accurately in natural language than it takes to just write the algorithm as code.
A single, crude, statement of fact slaying the work of a million typewriter monkeys spewing out random characters thinking they're actually writing the Shakespeare novel, lmao.
And now we're converting this imperfect form of communication (natural language) into a language for machines (code), which notoriously do exactly what you say, not what you intend.
NLP is massively, and I mean massively, beneficial to get you started on the right path to writing an app/script/etc. But at the end of the day it may be necessary to refactor things here and there. The nice thing is you don't have to be a code ninja to get value out of LLMs, but it's still helpful and sometimes necessary.
If I create a website with Node.js, I’m not manually managing memory, parsing HTTP requests byte-by-byte, or even attempting to fully grasp the event loop’s nuances. I’m orchestrating layers of code written by others, trusting that these black boxes will behave as advertised according to my best, but deeply incomplete, understanding of them.
I'm not sure what this means for LLMs programming, but I already feel separated from the case Dijkstra lays out.
Difficult to sort this out with what follows.
Consider group theory. A group G is a set S with an operator * that supports an identity, closure, and an inverse. With that abstraction comes a hefty amount of power. In some sense, a group is akin to a trait on some type, much like how a class in Java can implement or extend Collection. (Consider how a ring ‘extends’ a group.)
I’d posit frameworks and libraries are no different in terms of formal symbolism from the math structure laid out above. Maybe the interfaces are fuzzy and the documentation is shoddy, but there’s still a contract we use to reason about the tool at hand.
> I’m not manually managing memory, parsing HTTP requests byte-by-byte
If I don’t reprove Peano’s work, then I’m not really doing math?
13) Humans writing code is an inherently flawed concept. Doesn't matter what form the code takes. Machine code, assembly language, C, Perl, or a ChatGPT prompt. It's all flawed in the same way. We have not yet invented a technology or mechanism which avoids it. And high level abstraction doesn't really help. It hides problems only to create new ones, and other problems simply never go away.
21) Loosely coupled interfaces made our lives easier because it forced us to compartmentalize our efforts into something manageable. But it's hard to prove that this is a better outcome overall, as it forces us to solve problems in ways that still lead to worse outcomes than if we had used a simpler [formal] logic.
34) We will probably end up pushing our technical abilities to the limit in order to design a superior system, only to find out in the end that simpler formal logic is what we needed all along.
55) We're becoming stupider and worse at using the tools we already have. We're already shit at using language just for communicating with each other. Assuming we could make better programs with it is nonsensical.
For a long time now I've been upset at computer science's lack of innovation in the methods we use to solve problems. Programming is stupidly flawed. I've never been good at math, so I never really thought about it before, but math is really the answer to what I wish programming was: a formal system for solving a problem, and a formal system for proving that the solution is correct. That's what we're missing from software. That's where we should be headed.
I feel that we’ve collectively jumped into programming with LLMs too quickly. I really liked how Rust has iterated on pointing out “silly mistakes” and made it much more clear what the fix should be. That’s a much more favorable development for me as a developer. I still have the context and understanding of the code I work on while the compiler points out obvious errors and their fixes. Using an LLM feels like a game of semi-intelligent guessing on the other hand. Rust’s compiler is the master teaching the apprentice. LLMs are the confident graduate correcting the master. I greatly prefer Rust’s approach and would like to see it evolved further if possible.
“You are the graphics system, an entity that manages what is on the screen. You can receive requests from all programs to create and destroys “windows”, and further requests to draw text, lines, circles, etc. in a window created earlier. Items can be of any colour.
You also should send more click information to whomever created the window in which the user clicked the mouse.
There is one special program, the window manager, that can tell you what windows are displayed where on any of the monitors attached to the system”
and
“you are a tic-tac-toe program. There is a graphics system, an entity that manages what is on the screen. You can command it to create and destroys “windows”, and to draw text, lines, circles, etc. in a window created earlier. Items can be of any colour.
The graphics you draw should show a tic-tac-toe game, where users take turn by clicking the mouse. If a user wins the game, it should…
Add ads to the game, unless the user has a pay-per-click subscription”
That should be sufficient to get a game running…
To save it, you’d need another prompt:
”you are a file system, an entity that persists data to disk…”
You also will want
”you are a multi-tasking OS. You give multiple LLMs the idea that they have full control over a system’s CPU and memory. You…”
I look forward to seeing this next year in early April.
We are still debating what some laws and amendments mean. The meaning of words change over time, lack of historical context, etc.
I would love natural language to operate machines, but I have been programming since mid 80's and the stubbornness of the computer languages (from BASIC, to go) strikes a good balance, and puts enough responsibility on the emitter to precisely express what he wants the machine to do.
The question is "natural" to whom, the humans or the computers?
AI does not make human language natural to computers. Left to their own devices, AIs would invent languages that are natural with respect to their deep learning architectures, which is their environment.
There is always going to be an impedance mismatch across species (humans and AIs) and we can't hide it by forcing the AIs to default to human language.
If I didn't know who wrote this it would seem like a jab directly at people who dislike Rust.
After I've worked for some time with a language that can express even stronger invariants in types than Rust (Scala) I don't see that property anymore as clear win regardless circumstances. I don't think any more "stronger types == better, no matter what".
You have a price to pay for "not being allowed to do mistakes": Explorative work becomes quite difficult if the type system is really rigid. Fast iteration may become impossible. (Small changes may require to re-architecture half your program, just to make the type system happy again![1])
It's a trade-off. Like with everything else. For a robust end product it's a good thing. For fast experimentation it's a hindrance.
[1] Someone described that issue quite well in the context of Rust and game development here: https://loglog.games/blog/leaving-rust-gamedev/
But it's not exclusive to Rust, nor game dev.
This is a huge deal for me.
At the beginning of most "what if...?" exercises, I am just trying to get raw tuples of information in and out of some top-level-program logic furnace for the first few [hundred] iterations. I'll likely resort to boxing and extremely long argument lists until what I was aiming for actually takes hold.
I no longer have an urge to define OOP type hierarchies when the underlying domain model is still a vague cloud in my head. When unguided, these abstractions feel like playing Minecraft or Factorio.
Or to put it another way, the ease of programming is correlated with the ease of making undetected mistakes.
As long as you don't know how the end result should look like there are no "mistakes".
The whole point of explorative work is to find out how to approach something in the first place.
It's usually impossible to come up with the final result at first try!
After you actually know how to do something in general tools which help to avoid all undetected mistakes in the implementation of the chosen approach are really indispensable. But before having this general approach figured out too much rigidity is not helpful but instead a hindrance.
To understand this better read the linked article. It explains the problem very well over a few paragraphs.
Eh, I'm being mugged by Rust-lovers. But as soon as I read Dijkstra's snotty remark about how making mistakes is the opposite of easy (!?) I had an intuitive reaction of "balls". Maybe that was a mistake, but it came easy.
I guess some kinds of foolishness are just timeless.
He's here talking about interpreted languages.
He's also one of those mathematicians who are now called computer scientists whose 'algorithms' are simple restatements of mathematics and require no devices. A person actively hostile, in temperament, to the embarrassing activity of programming an actual computer.