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Posted by prawn 4/4/2025

Why does Britain feel so poor?(martinrobbins.substack.com)
186 points | 389 commentspage 3
tremon 4/4/2025|
From what I've seen, it's because the last 20 years (at least -- I wasn't politically conscious before then) of policy have only focused on London. The rest of the country has mostly been left to fend for itself, but have the additional burden of dealing with nation-wide policies that really only apply to single metropolis. And because Parliament over-allocates funds to London, that leaves most other municipalities to fight over funding scraps left on the table.
pas 4/5/2025|
isn't London still paying more taxes than what's spent there?

though of course it's not surprising, productivity is vastly higher in cities. but that's an argument for allowing and helping them to grow more.

urbanization started many hundreds of years ago, it's nothing new.

in fact, instead of committing to economically (and ecologically) sustainable high-density cities (and withdrawing from the crazy American Dream/Nightmare suburbs)

letting people piss away their lives in shitty none of the above places

Nursie 4/5/2025||
London does pay more taxes, but it also disproportionately sucks in the nation’s talented youth, investment etc.

The government could and should make an effort to spread growth around more.

pas 4/6/2025||
... the birthplace of the railways cannot seem to build railways anymore, unfortunately.

Growth requires economic/business opportunities, infrastructure that can serve said growth, like-minded people to help manifest said growth, and ... that silly corporate thing, what was it, ah, synergies! Spreading all these things out leads to kick-ass local music scenes, but otherwise helps no one.

nothercastle 4/4/2025||
This essay reads like a rant on the inefficiencies of government talks about direct cause problems but never tackles the big WHY.
ChrisKnott 4/4/2025|
It’s totally superficial rage porn. Solutions offered include “a total rethink” and “an integrated strategy”. Brilliant…
light_hue_1 4/4/2025||
For the same reason that Americans and Canadians feel so poor. And the same reason why Trump is in office.

A total failure of the field of economics.

Just like economists insisted that the economy is doing badly because of vibes, they also insist that many people are part of the middle class based on an arbitrary threshold that isn't what it used to be.

Housing, energy, and education have increased astronomically compared to 30 years ago.

The cost of housing doubled in 10 years in my city. All while the schools got worse and the cost of college is astronomical. The cost of childcare doubled in 10 years as well. Energy bills also doubled in just 4 years.

What used to be a great stable income, we're even above the official line for what counts as middle class, is now just scraping by.

Being middle class used to mean that you were financially secure and could say have kids and a house. By that metric many people have fallen out of the middle class.

dalyons 4/4/2025|
The categorization of middle class, whether it’s right or wrong, has nothing to do with why things are expensive and life is harder.
diordiderot 4/4/2025||
> lowest rate of investment

High costs of

1. Energy 2. Transport 3. Housing

Are the cause of low private and public investment.

The author treats the lack of public productivity growth as separate from the lack of public investment but the latter causes the former

Excellent piece about it here.

https://ukfoundations.co/

TLDR: "it is difficult to build almost anything, anywhere. This prevents investment, increases energy costs, and makes it harder for productive economic clusters to expand. This, in turn, lowers our productivity, incomes, and tax revenues."

Housing is probably the biggest culprit. More on that here.

https://worksinprogress.co/issue/the-housing-theory-of-every...

pjc50 4/4/2025||
Funny, because the high costs of energy and transport are .. due to lack of investment. A vicious circle.

Blocking green energy investment is the biggest area of frustration. You cannot demand to never see a pylon and then turn round and complain about your electricity bills. The press/public are fundamentally unserious about this. I got mildly radicalized when I read that someone was trying to block an offshore connection using the presence of "grade 2 listed concrete anti-tank cubes" on the beach.

Edit: example of listed cubes https://historicengland.org.uk/listing/the-list/list-entry/1...

arp242 4/4/2025|||
IMO the way Britain deals with listed buildings is excessively over-protective in general; sometimes it seems like every other building is a listed building. That alone wouldn't be so bad, but the number of restrictions that are placed are then often too much: preventing things like double glazing or other common sense modern improvements.

I'm not against protecting historical heritage, of course, but society should serve the people currently living there. Just because something is over a few decades old doesn't mean it's worth bending over backwards to protect 100% intact without any changes. Would it really be so bad if a building from 1910 gets some double glazing, changing the appearance slightly? I'd say it's not.

pjc50 4/4/2025||
My pet crank proposal for this would be that listed buildings should require somebody from the public to pay to keep them on the list. Nowhere near the full cost, something in the region of £100.

Add a crowdfunding frontend. Put the sponsor's name on the website next to the building. Have a little thing promoting all the unsponsored buildings. Run a lottery which pays back some of the collected fees to privately-held listed building owners to help pay for upkeep.

But if nobody cares enough to reach into their pocket and spend the equivalent of a mildly expensive restaurant dinner on keeping this building listed? Maybe it's not actually important or significant at all. Fewer, better-maintained historic buildings, rather than just having them with the owner quietly waiting for them to burn down so something useful can be built.

diordiderot 4/4/2025|||
Beyond parody
HPsquared 4/4/2025||
These high costs are attractive to investors in those fields though. The question is, WHY is there still a lack of investment despite those attractive high returns?
spaceribs 4/4/2025||
I'm a big believer that the reason for the level of government bureaucracy and busywork described in this article is not a bug, it's a feature.

Government's job within a capitalist country in a lot of ways is to ensure stability, a stable populace and stable society leads to stable markets theoretically. But what do you do if there is not enough jobs to go around to ensure that stability?

Simple: you just make jobs up, you make busywork up, you increase the bureaucracy to subsidize people who would otherwise be destitute and rioting on the streets. Technical innovation has driven out so many people from jobs at this point that we're reaching a true crisis against the cultural expectation that everyone that's "useful" works a job.

aaronbaugher 4/4/2025||
You also have to ramp up the propaganda, because you need people to believe that things are fine, and that working hard can improve their lives just as much as it could in their grandparents' day. That becomes a harder sell all the time.
typewithrhythm 4/4/2025||
See I suspect that the problem is not taking any sort of capitalist return concept when implementing a socialist policy... Even if you assume that the government needs to create jobs, it's like nobody has ever done a cost benefit, at any stage. You see hundreds of thousands being spent on one individuals care needs, something that is essentially never going to have a positive return, while productive initiatives either lack funding, or have triple thier cost added by pointless additional steps (that nobody has ever done a cost benefit of either).
incomingpain 4/4/2025||
I havent checked on UK in awhile. Lets look at it together. objective observer pov.

GDP growth: basically 0% for years. You're stagnating and losing economic time. Bad news.

Unemployment looks to be rising but overall not terrible. Participation rate seems high, grandma and grandpa still working it seems?

Interest rate of 4.5% is rough. Housing is problematic.

Balance of trade is negative, you're getting poorer.

Govt debt to gdp is up against the 100% barrier. Looking at central bank balance sheet, it does look like you just avoided bankruptcy.

Consumer confidence hasnt been positive in 10 years.

corporate tax rate of 25%? personal income tax of 45%. sales tax of 20% Yikes.

Seems to me the UK government is holding the economy back with far too high taxes.

gghhzzgghhzz 4/4/2025|
> Govt debt to gdp is up against the 100% barrier. Looking at central bank balance sheet, it does look like you just avoided bankruptcy.

A country cannot go bankrupt. After the war the debt to gdp ratio was 250%, and from that position the government nationalised 20% of industry, built houses, create the NHS and welfare state and developed a nuclear programme.

> corporate tax rate of 25%

on profit yes, but if you are big enough you declare as little profit as possible.

> personal income tax of 45%

that's the highest band there is, payable only on income over £125,140

> sales tax of 20% Yikes.

well it's a tax on added value on every step thorough the retail chain, collectable by the end retailer. It's zero rate on food and child clothes and some other things.

Taxes are indeed on the wrong places in many cases: e.g. dividend tax on unearned income should be equalised with income tax, income tax thresholds should be increased in line with inflation / wages and not frozen as they currently are. but I don't think overall tax burden is the issue here.

incomingpain 4/4/2025||
>A country cannot go bankrupt. After the war the debt to gdp ratio was 250%, and from that position the government nationalised 20% of industry, built houses, create the NHS and welfare state and developed a nuclear programme.

Correct that there isn't a bankruptcy legislation, but there's a factor of cant pay the creditors and you just stop. Which mostly implies that retirees go back to work.

If you'd like to invent a new word for it, fine but bankrupt is what many western countries are right now.

>but I don't think overall tax burden is the issue here.

This is without talking about property, tv, etc taxes. The total tax burden is probably over 100% and you're feeding people into specific tax free things like food. Definitely total tax burden problem.

The problem comes up against thermodynamics. The longer you run taxes at these high levels, the worse things get. That includes roads and everything. Even though in theory taxation should at least maintain those things. So your country becomes poorer and poorer. Not sustainable.

gghhzzgghhzz 4/4/2025||
> but there's a factor of cant pay the creditors and you just stop

in the UK case then £895 of the debt is owned directly by the bank of England. So in the case of about 1/3rd of the debt the 'creditor' is your own central bank.

The government can of course pay interest on gilts by simply issuing more gilts. It's one of the advantages of running a country, intergeneration debt.

> The total tax burden is probably over 100%

Compared to what? income? capital gains? GDP?

total tax in UK through all taxes is 36.1% of GDP.

Taxes are not high in historical terms. USA for example had much higher tax rates (90% top income tax band) while it was arguably undergoing its phase of highest development.

Roads (and everything) get worse if governments do not invest in roads, or they invest in roads, but have outsourced to multiple layers of contractors who end up extracting a lot of the investment in profit and squeezing of labour costs and not in quality of road building.

proaralyst 4/4/2025||
I don't see planning mentioned much in the article or comments. The Town and Country Planning act is a large cause of high development costs in the UK. Roads, rail, public works, nuclear power stations, onshore renewables and above all housing have all suffered significantly because getting things approved is so difficult.

Most other affluent nations have some form of zoning instead, which make planning much much easier. Most other affluent nations have more central control over planning too, which makes consensus over megaprojects easier to reach.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 4/4/2025||
Visited UK recently, wandered around south-east counties. Didn't feel like a poor country. In poor countries, things are cheap. In UK, things are expensive, so people have money.
Nextgrid 4/4/2025||
UK is the most expensive third-world country I've had the displeasure of visiting (and before that, living in).

If you want the extreme of "cheap and run down", some Eastern European countries fit the bill. If you want the other extreme of "expensive and well-kept", Switzerland.

But Britain is in a unique place of both "expensive and run down".

NoImmatureAdHom 4/4/2025||
Yeah...a sad combination of low salaries, high costs, and the English.
kypro 4/4/2025||
Repeat this experiment in the North of England, or anywhere but the South-East
Sam_Odio 4/4/2025||
Related:

Why Britain doesn’t build (worksinprogress.co) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=36477481

cess11 4/4/2025|
From the title I expected to see some mention of privatisation or foreign squatters owning real estate for credit and tax purposes rather than use or friction and waste in the NHS due to corrupt IT procurement, and things like that.

The proposed recommendations to Starmer et al are also very vague, at least to me, Labour insiders or public affairs consultants might have obvious context to fill them in, I don't know.

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