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Posted by jger15 9/4/2025

Almost anything you give sustained attention to will begin to loop on itself(www.henrikkarlsson.xyz)
762 points | 220 comments
causal 9/4/2025|
This did not go where I thought it was going, and I'm glad. I enjoyed the read. I'm not versed enough in psychiatry to validate the brain-chemistry stuff but my practical experience lines up.

Reminds me of the trick of telling yourself "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on". I pretty much always end up wanting to keep doing that thing.

thewebguyd 9/4/2025||
> "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on".

I have to use this trick to help manage my ADHD. Of course, just actually starting for 5 minutes is a challenge in itself but while medicated at least I can. Giving myself a time limit as an easy out works wonders, and after 5 minutes I'm probably going to keep going.

_boffin_ 9/5/2025|||
Here’s a fun one I given many years ago: I had a friend/client who was professor. We’d talk about ADHD, issues, and other things. One day, I came to him saying, “a lot of times, I’ll read a paragraph 20 times, but not remember a single thing from it. It’s drudgery and almost painful to read it. It’s a fight.”

His response was profound to me: “instead of you reading it how you are, try to understand why the author spent their life, time, and effort to learn that material and then convey it to you. What made them fascinated in it?”

By flipping the script… changed my world

braebo 4 days ago||
This comment gave me pause… because it’s novel to me, while seemingly adjacent to my current worldview in a way that makes me suspect it’s an important missing puzzle piece. That makes me nervous.. yet excited.

I’ll have to meditate on this a bit more. Thanks for sharing!

_boffin_ 3 days ago||
Wild, right?

What's your current worldview relating to this and the issues you were having with it?

mhurron 9/4/2025||||
I wish you the best with that, but by the metric of 'if I can do it for 5 minutes I can probably keep going because I wanted to do it' would mean that I don't want to do, very literally, anything.

To be fair, I only just recently (past month) talked to my doctor and started treating it properly so I'm still in the tweaking the dosage phase.

jnovek 9/4/2025|||
Another thing to consider is that, once you are medicated, you have a whole new set of skills to develop.

I remember when I started taking ADHD meds and I was like “wow I can focus now” and proceeded to focus with all my might on the wrong thing.

sotix 9/4/2025|||
That interesting. I can hyperfocus without medication just fine. It's the choosing what to focus on that I take medication to solve.
gtirloni 9/4/2025||
I think "just fine" would imply you can invoke hyperfocus whenever you want. In my experience, it happens with the most undesirable things at the most undesirable moments.
virtue3 9/4/2025|||
But I know so much about randomly WW2 battle and military boats and airplanes that was critical to know at 3am when I had a full docket of stuff to do the next day...
sotix 7 days ago||||
That seems to contradict my third sentence. Hyperfocusing does not mean choosing what to focus on. My point was, ADHD to me is not an issue in focusing. It's an issue with choosing what to focus on.
gtirloni 7 days ago||
Understood, thanks for clarifying. In my case, my hyperfocus sessions (sometimes on useful, sometimes on useless things) are in between absurd levels of distractions so I can't totally relate.
Aeolun 9/4/2025||||
I think that’s true. If I want to focus on the thing that is my current obsession I can invoke that focus whenever I want. Never mind if I’m at work, in the shower, or at a birthday party. It’s just not very useful to achieve the goals you probably have at those places.
myth2018 9/4/2025|||
I can relate. Also, sometimes I can even invoke it on things I want to. However, I just can't turn it off when needed.
directmusic 9/4/2025||||
My rule of thumb is: Whatever I am doing when the meds start working is what I'm going to be doing.
thewebguyd 9/4/2025||
Same. When I first started taking meds this was a hard lesson to learn. Yay I can actually focus on a task now. It just so happens that task needs to be whatever I'm doing when they start working.
gtirloni 9/4/2025|||
> Another thing to consider is that, once you are medicated, you have a whole new set of skills to develop.

Exactly. Once I got diagnosed, the doctor wanted to remove the SSRI's that had been treating the side effects and not the root cause... but that happened too quickly in my case. I had constant episodes.

After a few months, I had to go back to them while I was still learning about everything, how I had to change habits, what would work now, etc.

metabagel 9/4/2025||||
Could it be that something other than ability to focus is blocking you? Fear of failure, for example?

Suggest thinking as if you already accomplished the thing and then work backwards from there. Start with a feeling of accomplishment and satisfaction, because it’s already done. Now, you just need to do it.

Or whatever approach works for you. Everyone is different.

raducu 9/5/2025||
> Could it be that something other than ability to focus is blocking you? Fear of failure, for example?

Looking for other reasons behind procrastination is very important, indeed.

There can be many, many core beliefs that hold you down.

This will sound cliche and 70's pop-psy self-help, but people think about themselves as an adult of age XX and don't realize many core ideas about themselves are not those of an adult, but those of themselves at age 7.

My example is that since my daughter was born I was using on her a blessing my grandma was always using on me, and I did not realize I was miss gendering her -- I was using the masculine form and my daughter eventually asked me about it -- why was I using the masculine form on her -- it then struck me I heard the blessing from my grandma when I was very young and it just became a core part of me.

That's cute, until you realize you internalize A LOT of stuff by the time you're 7 and unfortunatelly it's not always positive stuff.

My father did a lot of good things for me, but he was very competitive, he almost NEVER let me win at anything to the point he became visibly distraught when I was about to win against him, so I struggle to capitalize on my insights, especially when I have strong "about to win" feelings which turned into a life long self-inflicted "Cassandra curse".

otikik 9/4/2025||||
Hyperfocus is an interesting one. You can now focus on a single thing so profoundly that you forget to eat or sleep. Slight caveat: you don’t have control over what you hyperfocus on.
metabagel 9/4/2025||||
Suggested books which I found helpful. There may be audiobooks available, if that is more your thing.

https://bookshop.org/p/books/learned-optimism-how-to-change-...

https://bookshop.org/p/books/the-now-habit-a-strategic-progr...

DrewADesign 9/4/2025|||
Mitigation strategies start to look a lot different when you have a better sense of adjusted capability. I expected it to be something I felt when I started a task, or how I felt about starting tasks— like if you’re stronger it’s easy to sense that you can pick up heavier objects, and picking up heavy things doesn’t feel as burdensome. That’s not what it was like for me. It still feels just as shitty and annoying to do things I don’t want to do, but once you realize how much better you are at staying on task and doing the work to completion, and doing things that might have been a cognitive challenge before, giving up/avoidance doesn’t feel like the only choice anymore.
abustamam 9/4/2025|||
How do I get diagnosed with ADHD? My sister just recently got diagnosed in her 40s (in another country though) and I'm like, well maybe I have adhd too, but I don't know who to ask, and the online quizzes all seem set up to sell you stuff.
SequoiaHope 9/4/2025||
I took an online quiz, then told my doctor, then my doctor administered an online quiz to me and subscribed me Adderall. It has taken me a year and a half to make sense of what Adderall means to me but it’s quite helpful. I’m 40. I had never had stimulants like that before! Be careful with the euphoria. For a while my dose was too high and it felt great at first but I crashed on the weekends. Now I keep my dose lower and it’s helpful without being too much. Mindfulness and self control are important here.
Aurornis 7 days ago|||
> Be careful with the euphoria. For a while my dose was too high

This is a scarily common problem. For some reason, a lot of primary care doctors are jumping straight to very high doses of Adderall.

Most patients love the feeling at first. They think they're going to conquer the world and that they've become an entirely new person.

The euphoria never lasts, though. When tolerance erases the euphoria they start complaining that their medication "isn't working any more".

The good practitioners will actually titrate upward: Start with a low dose, then incrementally increase it on future visits.

abustamam 9/4/2025|||
Thanks! I like to think that I have mindfulness and self control, but I might be overestimating myself.
SequoiaHope 9/5/2025||
Yeah honestly I have good self control for a lot of drugs, but this one was pretty tricky. It took me a while to realize what was happening. I had been on Adderall for almost a year when I started a new job at a fast paced startup, and only then did my usage patterns become an issue. My golden rule now is I only ever take the same dosage at the same times of day (morning and afternoon). For a while I took extra on busy days and this led to poor sleep, additional use subsequent days to keep up, and then a crash. The crash was characterized by feeling extremely sad to the point of ruining my weekends when it happened. Now for the past few months I’ve never exceeded my daily dose and I feel much better. Sounds like with this simple guidance and your mindfulness you will do great
abustamam 7 days ago||
That's awesome! Thank you for the tips!
SequoiaHope 6 days ago||
Makes me happy to help. Good luck.
mrexroad 9/4/2025|||
“Action comes before motivation.”

I’ve repeated this to my kids to the point it’s a meme in our house. I find it’s a nice short circuit to “I have no motivation”, b/c “Great, do {thing} and you’ll find the motivation!”

rabbitlord 9/4/2025|||
Great suggestion. "Just do it" usually just works.
vldx 9/5/2025|||
“The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way.”
abustamam 9/4/2025|||
That's interesting. I really enjoy playing video games, when I have time. There are games that I objectively find fun, like recently, Clair Obscur Expedition 33. But oftentimes I'd play with my full attention, trying to absorb the beauty of the world and the music, and then I take my phone out during a loading screen and now I'm "second-screening" with my news feed or HN. And I'm still enjoying the game itself, but I feel like I'm robbing myself of the experience because I am not giving it my full attention.

I try not to second-screen when watching movies or TV, and I'm pretty good at it. I know it's a very common thing for people to do these days and it honestly kinda bugs me because at least for me, TV and movies are a shared experience, but video games, at least the ones that I play, are almost always solo experiences.

Anyway, I feel like I just diagnosed myself with ADHD in writing this comment.

causal 7 days ago|||
I think there's something uniquely distracting about the constant availability of phones. We have muscle-memory now that can reflexively open a little hit of reward anytime we're in an idle moment.

Now instead of choosing to open our phones, we have to actively choose NOT to let that muscle memory spring into the action of unlocking the phone. Seems bad.

vachina 9/4/2025|||
If you’re second screening a movie you need to stop that movie and delete it from your library.
duttish 9/5/2025|||
This is how I started working out regularly. "I can quit 5 min after warming up".

Five minutes after warming up I've changed, in the gym and a couple of sets in. I quit maybe 1/20 sessions, and it's shrunk more over the years since, but it was an easy way to fool my brain.

I'm guessing this is different because the main threshold is starting to do the thing. Once you've started it's much less mental effort to keep going and just do the full workout.

superkuh 9/4/2025|||
It was such a delight to see someone finally getting the dopaminergic function right and not confusing dopamergic populations activity with perceptions of pleasure, but instead pointing to the modern understandings: they predict future pleasure. Glutamate (in the shell of the nucleus accumbens) is the real "pleasure" chemical (among all it's various other uses).
mettamage 9/4/2025||
I think they showcase the anticipation reward no? For example, a near-miss with slot machines spikes higher dopamine than actually hitting the magical 777. Can’t find source atm
ants_everywhere 9/4/2025||
> Reminds me of the trick of telling yourself "let's give this my full attention for just 5 minutes, and if I still don't want to do it we can move on". I pretty much always end up wanting to keep doing that thing.

Inertia is a good mental model for attention in ADHD. I sometimes tell people that my attention is like a large truck. It can be hard to get it started and up to speed, but once it's up to speed it's hard to stop.

Spending 5 minutes on something is a way of forcing yourself to get started. Once you're up and running it's will be hard to break your attention. For that reason, it's important to choose carefully which things you deliberately spend attention on if you have ADHD.

jpopesculian 9/4/2025||
Reminds me of The Disappearance of Rituals by Byung-Chul Han. It's difficult to succinctly state the premise of the book, but in a way, I think its about structuring time and attention vertically on top of itself instead of horizontally across moments and subjects
maroonblazer 9/4/2025||
What serendipity! The latest episode of "Philosophize This!" is titled "The Philosophy of Zen Buddhism - Byung Chul Han".[0] I'd never heard of him before. Apparently his book "The Burnout Society" is recommended reading.

[0]https://open.spotify.com/episode/3jdvGsEdrpEEjMBJG5oRaH?si=g...

bobson381 9/4/2025|||
Philosophize this has been on such a cool track out of western canon and through more mystic/nondual flavored stuff, in a way that builds off of itself. I got Deleuze-pilled a few years ago, and have had fun listening to the whole progression lately. Interesting dovetails with the Alan Watts marathon I did for like a year or two haha
wry_discontent 9/4/2025||
I've struggled to read Deleuze in the past; do you have recommendations? I find summaries interesting, but the texts themselves impenetrable.
bobson381 9/4/2025||
tl;dr read it with friends or drugs, or as a drug. Wild shit.

I was with a group of a couple friends who loved A Thousand Plateaus - we would read bits of it allowed together and laugh and generally have a good time talking about it. Probably the best way to have approached it.

Also on the advice of one of these folks, I read just the intro to ATP and then went for a walk outside without my phone or anything and stared into the woods while that clusterfuck of a concept-tangle just bounced around in my head. Then I slept on it, and later we started doing the group readings. Especially together with Guattari, it's almost more of a hallucinogenic substance than it is a book, and approaching it from all sides with a light heart is somehow helpful. Deleuze really doesn't seem interested in objections in ATP, he just wants to throw another concept at you and see if that one sticks instead.

prrar 9/4/2025|||
That's a great episode, thanks for your suggestion.
piva00 9/4/2025||
Off-topic: have you enjoyed "The Disappearance of Rituals"?

I went on a binge of Byung-Chul Han last year, reading "The Crisis of Narration", "In The Swarm", "Psychopolitics", and "The Burnout Society". Really enjoyed all of them, and given how dense it can be I set myself to read them at least twice which I'm just finishing, was on the lookout for what else to read from him and was thinking about "The Disappearance of Rituals" as the next one.

peterldowns 9/4/2025||
Given your interest in BCH, you may enjoy Non-places: An Anthropology of Supermodernity by Marc Augé. BCH draws on a lot of Augé's ideas from this book in Psychopolitics. It is obtuse and either poorly-translated or badly-written but the ideas are excellent.
triceratops 9/4/2025||
I wonder if this explains the popularity of It's a Wonderful Life. The story is well-known at this point. It was a box-office flop when first released, and fell out of copyright because the studio couldn't be bothered to renew it. As a result it played repeatedly on TV around Christmastime every year. The repeated exposure to this film, presumably also associating it with other pleasant holiday memories for audiences, transformed its reputation. To the point that it's now considered one of the best films of all time.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/It%27s_a_Wonderful_Life#Recept...

monktastic1 9/4/2025||
Huh, I would guess there's a different mechanism at work. In my experience, movies playing on TV during the holidays tend not to get people's deep, persistent, undivided attention.
hinkley 9/4/2025||
Part of the reason why it was on 24 hours a day for 20 years is that something got fucked up with the copyright and TV channels were using it as free filler.

When I was very young it merely competed with Miracle on 34th Street. And then it was just fucking everywhere. I’m not sure I’m entirely over hating it for never being off the air. Even though it’s been 15-20 years since they stopped playing it every hour of the day.

triceratops 9/4/2025||
The Shawshank Redemption has a similar story. Didn't do well when released. Its video release fared a little better, maybe because people could re-watch it at home. Then Turner picked up TV distribution rights cheaply and showed it again and again.

Now, just like It's a Wonderful Life, it's considered one of the best movies ever made.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Shawshank_Redemption#Criti...

Groundhog Day is like this too. Although it was a "modest" box office success its critical reputation grew massively as the years went by. To the point that again it's consistently on best-ever movie lists.

"[12 years later] Ebert raised his original score for the film from three stars to a full four stars [saying] that he had underestimated the film"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundhog_Day_(film)#Post-rele...

It's befitting that watching Groundhog Day again and again makes you like the movie more.

Btw I mentioned It's a Wonderful Life's copyright situation in my original post.

ricardobeat 9/4/2025|||
You cannot attribute their success simply to repeated TV runs though. Some films are just not that appealing for the cinema, more art than entertainment, and slowly convert each viewer into a fan until it joins the collective consciousness as a classic. It's a story that all of these have in common - some level of critical acclaim before release, flops at the cinemas, slowly builds up a reputation.
triceratops 9/4/2025||
> You cannot attribute their success simply to repeated TV runs though

I'm arguing that repeated TV runs allowed audiences and critics to deeply ponder and appreciate these films. Sustained attention over time, which caused a re-evaluation of their artistic merit.

acomjean 9/5/2025|||
I think about music albums on cassette that I listened too in the car. I enjoyed some of those deeper tracks after repeated listening.

Also Sony India is posting older movies on YouTube. I don’t know if there are gems in the rough there but they don’t seem to attract a lot of viewers.

https://youtube.com/@sonypicturesindia-english?si=G20TZ6NnVk...

BizarroLand 9/4/2025|||
I'm a fan of this theory.

You basically have 2 chances:

1: the media hits you like a ton of bricks and enraptures the audience from the start

2: you watch it a few times (or in TVs case you catch a few episodes), think about it, ponder the lore for a bit, and get invested over time

Outside of that, media will blow by you and never leave a mark.

greggman65 9/5/2025||
I've had other experiences

Saw "Saving Arizona" right after losing my girlfriend. Saw every problem they had as tragic instead of comedy. Didn't like the movie. Some relatively short time later. Saw it again. I was my favorite movie for years after.

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 9/4/2025||||
It's funny - I watched the Shawshank Redemption for the first time a couple years ago, after hearing forever about what a great film it is, and thought it was so lackluster I wasn't sure if I was missing something.

"Did he die in the end? Was it a dream sequence?" But no, both the intention of the creators, and by far the most common interpretation from viewers, is that it's all literal.

I tried watching Groundhog Day just once, and couldn't make it though it because (I assumed) it had aged so terribly.

Your comment made me reevaluate this though. I assumed the main appeal of these gonna was just nostalgia, and I've missed a key window, but perhaps it's the repeat viewings and predictability that make these films comfort food.

joegibbs 9/5/2025|||
Same here. I'd never seen parts of it on TV or anything until I watched it for the first time, since I'd seen it was ranked #1 on IMDB. There wasn't anything about it that made me feel like it was the best movie ever. The plot was very conventional, the shots were fine, the performances were pretty good - it seemed like a 7-8/10 movie, there are lots like it. Then I watched Lawrence of Arabia and 2001 and I got the "best movie ever" kind of feeling from them - great cinematography, big themes, bombastic soundtracks. But I can see why Shawshank could be the least controversial movie of all time, it's fine at everything and that helps when there are so many people ranking it.
allturtles 9/4/2025|||
> perhaps it's the repeat viewings and predictability that make these films comfort food.

There's a simpler explanation, which is that different people like different things.

greggman65 9/5/2025||
people are different people at different times in their live as well.

In my mid 20s I saw Casablanca and was not impressed.

In my mid 50s I saw it again and cried until I trembled. The 20 something me didn't get what the 2 main characters were giving up. The 50 something me with life experience of loves lost by choice and circumstance had a very different reaction.

greggman65 9/5/2025|||
Your summary of the reception of The Shawshank Redemption doesn't seem to fit the wikipied article you linked to

> Leading up to its release, the film was test screened with the public. These were described as "through the roof", and Glotzer said they were some of the best she had seen

> nominated for several Oscars in early 1995

> It went on to become the top rented film of that year

triceratops 7 days ago||
"Best movie" lists tend to have films with both critical acclaim and audience appeal.

It got critical praise but was a flop at the theater. The home video market redeemed it (haha) with audiences. From the article:

"Despite its disappointing box-office returns, in what was then considered a risky move, Warner Home Video shipped 320,000 rental video copies throughout the United States in 1995. It went on to become the top rented film of that year. Positive recommendations, repeat customer viewings, and being well received by both male and female audiences were considered key to the film's rental success."

All 3 movies (It's a Wonderful Life, Groundhog Day, and The Shawshank Redemption) had critical praise upon their initial release. Groundhog Day was even a solid hit. But no one could've predicted what they became later.

onenite 9/4/2025||
“Watch your thoughts, they become your words; watch your words, they become your actions; watch your actions, they become your habits; watch your habits, they become your character; watch your character, it becomes your destiny.”

- often (incorrectly) attributed to Lao Tzu

akprasad 9/4/2025||
A similar idea from the Brihadaranyaka Upanishad, ~7th century BCE

> 'And here they say that a person consists of desires. And as is his desire, so is his will; and as is his will, so is his deed; and whatever deed he does, that he will reap.

ants_everywhere 9/4/2025|||
Lao Tzu didn't say this. It appears to date from the owner of a supermarket chain in the 1970s
onenite 9/4/2025||
D’oh! Should’ve done my research—It sounds so believable. Thank you for the correction.
ants_everywhere 9/4/2025||
No problem :) It does sound believable.
_mu 9/4/2025||
Yes, it's a very ancient idea.

"As we think, so we become."

- Buddha

onenite 9/4/2025||
Thanks, i was about to share the first pair of verses of the Dhammapada (words of the Buddha. … allegedly), which perhaps would have been better than the misattributed quote in my initial comment:

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts, suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

.

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts, happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Source: https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/dp01/

lo_zamoyski 9/4/2025||
Sure. What you focus on will consume your mind and grow within it. The bad variety is often called dwelling or rumination.

Some will find the desert father John Cassian[0] interesting in this regard. He uses the analogy of a water mill for the mind. You cannot stop a water mill from turning - the water keeps flowing and keeps turning the grindstone - so all you can do is choose what is poured into the grindstone. If you fill it with high quality wheat, you will have high quality flour. If you fill it with or add to it darnel, you will produce something toxic.

You reap what you sow, and if you sow your mind and your attention with filth, filth will sprout and spread and metastasize. Cultivate the garden of your mind wisely. If the mind drifts, pull it back. Let the good crop choke out any weeds in your mind.

This is why there is an ethics of thought and imagination. It is wrong to intentionally think certain things. Stupid or ugly thoughts might enter our minds unintentionally, but we can pull our minds back to good thoughts. Indulging or pursuing bad thoughts corrupts you from the inside, and they prepare the ground for bad actions down the line.

(N.b., there was a link trending on HN a few years ago about a book of selections from Cassian's "Conferences" [1]. I can't find it at the moment, unfortunately.)

[0] https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/3508.htm

[1] https://a.co/d/cbxYLo7

onenite 9/4/2025||
Reminds me of the first pair of verses of the Dhammapada (words of the Buddha from ~2500 years ago. … allegedly):

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts, suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

.

Mind precedes all mental states.

Mind is their chief; they are mind-made.

If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts, happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow.

Source: https://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/dp01/

metabagel 9/4/2025||
> Stupid or ugly thoughts might enter our minds unintentionally, but we can pull our minds back to good thoughts.

In my experience, the best approach is to maintain a neutral aspect and just let those negative or unhelpful thoughts go. Wave goodbye and allow your mind to naturally drift to something else.

photon_garden 9/4/2025||
Yes, exactly!! I use art-making to direct my attention in the same way:

> on the one hand, the kid shouting at the park is the latest fruiting body of an immortal superorganism that's older than dry land.

> on the other, they're sticky and smell a little like pee.

> my work helps me pay close attention like this. how can i experience a moment with the direct, fresh awareness that makes a good haiku?

[1]: https://lucaaurelia.com/about

SonOfLilit 9/4/2025|
I enjoyed your words and pixels!
energy123 9/4/2025||
That's the default mode network. People that struggle with anxiety and rumination, as per the author's second section, lack the endogenous mechanisms to interrupt the default mode network.
wtbdbrrr 9/4/2025|
> lack the endogenous mechanisms

It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug.

if you can increase the blood flow through the originally responsible paths, you can recover any buried mechanism.

people with ADHD and stuff who had only slightly lower blood and or oxygen flow in the PFC, improve the negative symptoms of their ADHD as soon as normal levels of blood/oxygen flows through the PFC. this is true for any area in the brain*.

I'm sure there's studies on post-ischemic recovery that confirm all this.

Identifying entire paths through brain areas is no simple task, of course. But comparing "issues" to normal and extreme behaviors usually draws a more or less unambiguous graph.

*better blood flow and better oxygen supply usually mean better performance for any organism (or part of it)

Nevermark 9/4/2025|||
> It's not a lack of mechanisms. It's buggy wiring in the brain where at some point in time t some substance or lack thereof forced the brain to reroute blood flow through "paths" that were less impacted by the bug.

I don't think there is any solid basis to say this.

There has been at least one study that linked greater differences between right and left prefrontal cortex blood flow, favoring the right, to greater ADHD symptoms.

> "higher levels of right relative rCBF and lower levels of left relative rCBF were predictors of higher severity of clinical symptom expression" [0]

But developmental differences are pervasively correlated, without contributing to common phenomena, even more so for proximate phenomena, because developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body.

This makes the bar for causal claims very high.

There could be no functional correlation, just developmental correlation.

The difference could be causally reverse. I.e. differences in lateral PFC development generated the differences in circulatory recruitment, not the other way around.

Or there is some functional-physical causation, but ADHD is correlated with many other brain differences too. So is it significant?

Then, even if it were significant, Would reducing/increasing blood flow between the post-development sides really have net benefit now? Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful.

And finally, increasing blood flow is completely different from a re-balance.

Increasing blood flow, or simply increasing oxygen in available air, improves the function of almost everything in the body. Everyone will benefit from more oxygen to the prefrontal cortex, up to a point.

[0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11725823/

wtbdbrrr 9/4/2025||
awesome, thanks.

> I don't think there is any solid basis to say this.

The history of eugenic programs as well the blocking of male/female sex hormones to inhibit sexual development or for transitional purposes should reveal a solid basis. Brain/body are capable of recovering close to a genetic baseline, at least up to some age.

> developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body.

I read too little about that in edge cases, but in brains and bodies that developed normally, these changes are ever so slight that, as is commonly known, radically changing diets and lifestyle can recover the genetic baseline. Physical and psychological manifestations and changes are bio-chemistry and neuro-chemistry, and I do mean the one-to-one match as much as the correlates.

Bad posture ruins the kinetic chain as much as it impedes systemic metabolic logistics (blood circulation, lymphatic transport, ...). And if it happens too early and goes on for too long, the developmental differences to the genetic baseline become pervasive.

But bad posture isn't ADHD or anxiety or temporal lobe epilepsy, for example, for which people with ADHD have a higher susceptibility for, all due to Neuroplasticity aka neural adaptation.

But the intensity of any phenomenon depends to at least some more than "just barely" (3-5%) relevant degree on lifestyle and the psycho-social environment. Psychological traits are more nurture-dependent than physical traits but physical traits (can) have a massive influence on psychology, a lot of which can be attributed to how the environment perceives qualities and behaviors. For people with different sub-types of ADHD, this can either mean worlds-apart to their genetic baseline or just slightly off enough to be a tad bit bitter.

This was a lot but here's what I'm getting at:

> Seems unlikely that any decrease anywhere, even with increases elsewhere, post-development, would be uniformly helpful.

Any increase towards baseline is beneficial throughout the entire affected graph of neural structures, as well as proximate ones.

I assume there are fMRI studies on specific cognitive performance during ischemia and post-ischemia. Their findings should confirm that recovery from damage due to long-term hypodensity and decreased perfusion but that is also quite normal as any recovery from injury comes with a restoration of functionality.

The reason I am mentioning ischemia specifically is that brains don't stop working just because some part suffers from a reduction in blood flow. But ischemia can last for a very long time, especially if undiagnosed.

Developmental signals and ischemia are, of course, two entirely different things but the connection I see is the part where the brain reroutes neural signals simply because it's an innate mechanism, not an adaptive response. [citation needed, but I believe I read something about earlier this year. I am not uncertain.]

While ADHD is "a genetic thing", it can also be the consequence of lifestyle and "psycho-social" environment aka nurture, without any part of the essential genetic component. But the intensity or severity of positive and or negative ADHD symptoms is mostly the result of lifestyle and nurture, for which the impact(s) of drugs, diet and environment are proof.

So while it's absolutely true, that

> developmental signals have widespread cascades of impact throughout the body,

there is definitely

> functional-physical causation,

that is significant.

fwipsy 9/4/2025|||
> > I don't think there is any solid basis to say this.

> The history of eugenic programs as well the blocking of male/female sex hormones to inhibit sexual development or for transitional purposes should reveal a solid basis. Brain/body are capable of recovering close to a genetic baseline, at least up to some age.

Showing that some effect can result from some cause is not sufficient to show that it does result from that cause. To be honest I don't even follow exactly what claim you're making here. But even if you show that e.g. certain mental problems can result from reduced or increased blood flow to certain areas of the brain, it does not follow that that is always the cause.

You're resting big confident assertions on "I read this somewhere, go look it up." In fact biology and mentation are complex and we don't have the whole picture. It's easy to put together whatever "just so story" you want by rearranging fragments of evidence, but it doesn't make it true.

wtbdbrrr 7 days ago||
> Showing that some effect can result from some cause is not sufficient to show that it does result from that cause.

Definitely something I should have cleared up: it's utterly useless to claim or proof that some mental problem is caused by some reduction in bloodflow in some part of the brain, but I believe it is beneficial to know, if you are afflicted, that it's an area worth investigating, rather than assuming that your personality, your brain or your mind lack innate, exogenous mechanisms to deal with anxiety, depression and or other stuff.

> You're resting big confident assertions on "I read this somewhere, go look it up." In fact biology and mentation are complex and we don't have the whole picture. It's easy to put together whatever "just so story" you want by rearranging fragments of evidence, but it doesn't make it true.

Science philosophy starts somewhere. I'm sure at least some of it started in garages =]

Nevermark 9/4/2025|||
> Any increase towards baseline is beneficial throughout the entire affected graph of neural structures, as well as proximate ones.

This cannot possibly be assumed when talking about physiology already known to be atypical.

And specifically, assuming that reducing blood flow one place, and increasing it in another place, post-development, will predictably be a benefit is ... I have no words.

Your whole comment is full of this type of worse than weak reasoning.

wtbdbrrr 7 days ago||
> assuming that reducing blood flow one place, and increasing it in another place

should have made it clear that I did not mean decreasing in one place while increasing in another but increasing throughout all proximate areas.

> Your whole comment is full of this type of worse than weak reasoning.

Agreed, should have tagged it #sciencephilosophy or something ... I was thinking out loud. But there is merit. I am not uncertain any studies can prove me entirely wrong. But I understand why such a discussion might be a waste of time.

> This cannot possibly be assumed when talking about physiology already known to be atypical.

I don't understand. If reduced bloodflow is known to be the cause for atypical physiology, then the opposite is certainly also known.

I understand that -q doesn't necessarily mean p, but in the case of reduced bloodflow we have proof, don't we?

There's a little lump in my lag that causes reduced bloodflow if I don't do certain exercises or movements, which causes a bit of lag. If I do the movements for a bit or several times per hour, no lag. That is true for a considerable percentage of the population.

Nevermark 7 days ago||
> If reduced bloodflow is known to be the cause

But it isn't. Correlation isn't causation. There are so many possible relationships between somewhat correlated things like this.

The difference in blood flow could reflect less need due to upstream ADHD impact bottlenecking something else. Adding more oxygen there would be no different than the benefits of more oxygen anywhere.

That is just one of dozens of alternatives to your - straight from circumstance to explanation - leap of imagination.

There is a reason why we value science, despite it being an unnatural and difficult way to think for many. And often frustratingly slow. (Given science is a new idea, we have no specific evolutionary support for it.)

In contrast, "Plausible" reasoning is trivially easy, but is a disaster in terms of reliability. (Not being pejorative, but the other word for argument by seeming plausibility is "bullshit". We all have done it. For some people it's habitual, even motivated.)

wtbdbrrr 5 days ago||
> But it isn't. Correlation isn't causation.

I don't understand. If it IS the cause, hypothetically speaking (or in one of the rare cases when it is confirmed to be the cause), then it's not correlated; even though in--let's say, all--other cases, it is just a correlation.

> Adding more oxygen there would be no different than the benefits of more oxygen anywhere.

More blood flow and oxygen in my leg does add to my overall performance, if my leg had reduced blood flow and oxygen supply before the increase but if my biceps is suffering from low blood flow and low oxygen, increasing both right in biceps increases it's functionality and performance to a much larger degree.

> could reflect less need due to upstream ADHD impact bottlenecking something else

That is rerouting and reinforcement played out over time. You probably heard how some left-handed kids, to this day, are forced to--or at least rewarded for doing it--learn to write with their right hands. What happens in the brain, given that their genetic baseline dexterity is much better in their right hand and their brain thus prefers using it for writing and other fine work? [I should absolutely cite research here asap. I'm still treating these conversations like a noob, even though I could support arguments using good old Baconic ways. Forgive me.]

> That is just one of dozens of alternatives to your - straight from circumstance to explanation - leap of imagination.

Most certainly. I always loved it when Dr. House had to test one theory after the other. He and his team didn't fall back on imagination of course but often enough, the connections between symptoms, information and established causes and correlation required logical abduction.

> Not being pejorative, but the other word for argument by seeming plausibility is "bullshit".

I'm not sensitive and I like being wrong more than I like being right.

"We" need more fMRIs, though.

On a side note: Your comments did stimulate a desire to properly formulate a hypothesis based on tangential evidence from relevant (fMRI) studies. But there is no one to hold me accountable and once I'm done with PreCalc, I will move on to Biology and Chemistry basics, because I hope that the increased blood flow I achieved in the area around my parietal and temporal lobe will finally let me haul my broke ass back to university ... after, well ... too many years. (I could do the whole "fake it till you make it" being a grown up thing and JUST GET A JOB - but I don't like fake shit and once you get something to do what you want it to do, all the effort was worth it and there is ZERO reason to "adapt")

Nevermark 5 days ago||
> I don't understand. If it IS the cause, hypothetically speaking […]

That is circular reasoning, the way you are using it. Logically “if” makes sense. But when you go from “if” to effectively treating something as if "it IS" true or likely to be true, that’s jumping into an almost certain deep deadend pit with both feet, and then not looking up.

If you have a way to test a possibility, then do it. Otherwise, don’t get trapped in it.

Moving forward requires we all put currently untestable ideas on a shelf and continue undelayed. Preserve the potential usefulness of the idea, without turning it into a trap. Let it accumulate with many others. Where it is available to be reactivated, edited, or contribute to better ideas down the road.

The less stuck we get on one idea, the more complementary ideas and triangulating perspectives we accumulate.

So don’t let yourself get entangled in single possibilities.

Hone your thinking for long term effectiveness. Let shiney things go quickly.

(As the wise but brutal poets say when they have written a wonderful passage they treasure, if doesn’t quite fit the current work: “kill your darlings!!”)

The strength to do this avoids self-created brakes, and will compound your progress in life.

—-

I have ADHD. It’s not ever going to be corrected. ADHD permeates the brain.

It could not be removed or negated, without destroying my strengths and who I am.

I will always be vulnerable to inward and downward spirals.

But learning to cope, creating fallback habits and strategies, and developing support, all help tremendously.

I relate to wanting to solve things, and solving myself is always an attractive problem. The number of systems I have optimistically created to “fix” my own unhelpful patterns is endless. Most don’t work, but I don’t stop (or stop enjoying) trying.

But the best way I have found to improve is to work on things that are not about me, and let my efforts to make more progress on something else lead my progress on myself. The signal is much clearer. Internal progress and external productivity are much more likely to be real.

That provides the best and most reliable feedback. Reality outside myself.

That doesn’t mean going into an area related to oneself is wrong. But when the focus is on fixing yourself, instead of making progress for others, "feedback" becomes a source of subjective spirals, inviting mazes of wishful thinking. Quicksand for the ADHD.

Don't focus on fixing yourself, harness your strengths to do something productive, and you will naturally accumulate the personal tools that help you do that and more, along the way.

Your naturally unrelenting curiosity, care, interest and motivation are advantages many normies don't have. You are an idea factory and hopelessly creative. You have more wood behind your arrow. But to learn to shoot far and straight, to achieve something in the real world, you must seek and aim for targets well beyond yourself and your bow and arrow.

That will guide you to unique areas of self-improvement that fit you and your quests alone. And not waste any of your time on the many ways we genuinely appreciate others for being better than us.

Those are just my thoughts in the moment. You know yourself better than anyone else.

wtbdbrrr 3 days ago||
Ok, Addams, calm your undying tortured bdsm unicorns.

> That provides the best and most reliable feedback. Reality outside myself.

Guess you were lucky to find your awakening consciousness in a reality that is worth mentioning. I wasn't. My family is worth being kept a secret. But that epiphany came a little too late.

> I have ADHD. It’s not ever going to be corrected. ADHD permeates the brain.

There once was a guy who could only kick a ball with his right foot. It was never corrected. But he learned to kick the ball with his left foot anyway. He became one of the best. ( I might have switched right and left, but given the context, it barely matters. ) He became one of the best, ... not the least because a certain kind of growth hormones helped him a) fulfill certain conventionally established standards that were worked out by a community of 'economists' ( whatever the fuck that is ) and medical professional and b) outgrow developmental signals.

So, ... you are not "just" ADHD, ... you are above your genetic ADHD baseline. Meaning, despite the pure influence of your developmental signals, you have benefited from either your psycho-social environment alone or and or a chemical substance that entered your metabolisms just in time ...

fwipsy 9/4/2025||||
This seems like a strong claim, and I've never heard of it before. Can you provide sources?
jimkri 9/4/2025|||
I’m not backing that comment claim, but from recent research I’ve been doing.

My ADHD brain is lacking non-essential and essential amino acids/minerals,I think that comment stated the brain then rewires to compensate for the lack of nutrients. Thats what I’m taking.

I’ve been taking Spirulina as my booster to help fill in my nutrition deficiencies and then I’ve been feeling better leading me to get past the anxiety and rumination.

Richard Feynman wrote about it, that you can be hypothesized and want to do something and know you can, but you don’t or just can’t.

The article is great. One thing I’ve been doing is trying to make Arts and Crafts again.

I’m starting to incorporate Ai and my family to show what we can do. Then it’s starting to lead to everyone documenting their days with voice notes and more conversations

ajkjk 9/4/2025|||
that's not 'research'
vntok 9/4/2025||
What would you call it?
hinkley 9/4/2025|||
Trying things.
outworlder 9/5/2025|||
Anecdote.
devin 9/4/2025||||
The only part of this that rhymed with something I'm aware of is growth in the PFC in practicing meditators and a relation to improvement of ADHD symptoms among other things, though I don't recall whether it was a good study or not. I think I read that more than a decade ago.
wtbdbrrr 9/4/2025||
That's changes in brain chemistry via lifestyle changes.

Meditation, if practiced at least adequately intense, creates a time interval that is entirely different to anything an ADHD mind is accustomed to. Meditation is not a dream, not the Default Mode Network under control. You are awake, "lucid", not rooted in your imagination or some other cognitive style/process resulting from "hyperlight association" or similar common phenomena.

wtbdbrrr 9/4/2025|||
I'm sorry that I don't have the time to look further. But tangential sources could be

fMRI studies in general but definitely those related to cognitive performance during and after recovery from ischemia.

Also: studies on sexual development, the inhibition of sex hormone metabolisms.

And I'm quite certain that some of Michael Levin's research could provide some bits, too. But I am not sure what keywords I would start with.

hinkley 9/4/2025|||
My symptoms didn’t improve that much when I was an endurance athlete. Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer.
wtbdbrrr 9/4/2025||
But you did not suffer from a reduction to your genetic baseline.

You went up from your baseline.

> Most of the improvements could be adequately explained by the hedonic treadmill. I could suffer longer.

That's chemistry in body and brain. There were changes.

hinkley 9/5/2025||
I’m talking about pain/annoyance threshold, not general neurochemistry.
wtbdbrrr 7 days ago||
> pain/annoyance

Can be mitigated via drugs and increasing thresholds with, as you did, training, which results in decreased stress hormone levels from lower forms of physiological and psychological stress, better lactate metabolisms (not sure it's an actual metabolism, but better fitness results in higher storage capacities for lactate and quicker recovery), etc.

And endurance literally means your body and brain can suffer/sustain higher levels of stress due to fatigue and damage because the mechanisms causing "overflow" and "breakdown", "total collapse", even if it's just for the sake of reducing subsequent damage, are balanced by their biochemical counterparts and, again, higher storage capacities for pretty much everything body and brain produce while generating, transforming, exerting energy and all the exhaust ...

minism 9/5/2025||
This was a great essay, and as someone who struggles a lot with hyperawareness OCD, I cried reading it.

First on a positive note, the example about attention on sex and arousal feeding back on itself and deepening the experience is well described and easy to relate to. But I think the "deepening an experience through attention" phenomenon applies in so many other domains as well - Sustained attention on a film or video game world, deep uninterrupted creative work for many hours, etc. It's a wonderful positive feedback loop.

It is somewhat similar to how when sitting in silence outside for a long period of time you begin to become aware of more and more subtle details of the experience that weren't immediately accessible. Almost like you're turning up the sensitivity knob on things.

Unfortunately as the author describes, the attention feedback loop can become unpleasant and even torturous when it is directed on negative sensations. For me it has been various things at different stages of my life - muscle tension, breathing, eye floaters in my vision, etc. The same process plays out - Sustained fixation of attention on the sensation increases your sensitivity to it, meaning you notice it more and it bothers you more, meaning you pay more attention to it, and it gets out of control.

The difficulty I experience is that this attention is unwanted and yet I feel my mind focus on it almost automatically. Paradoxically, most of the treatment/recovery advice for this type of OCD is to allow these sensations to be there without rejecting them, which I'm still working on.

But it is helpful to see the positive flip side of the coin too - Our minds are capable of deep focus and deep attention, which can increase sensitivity and let you see increasingly subtle details of experience, making you a better appreciator of art and life, a better creator, a better listener and friend, etc.

papyrus9244 7 days ago||
> Paradoxically, most of the treatment/recovery advice for this type of OCD is to allow these sensations to be there without rejecting them

That sounds a lot like meditation.

joquarky 9/5/2025||
I can relate to the muscle tension. No amount of stretching is sufficient, and ignoring it seems to cause it to grow in intensity.
iamben 9/4/2025||
If you're near any of the cities they run events in, I highly recommend https://pitchblackplayback.com/

There's something deeply connecting (and often very moving) about listening to a record and having your attention forced on it. So much that I usually start by thinking "I hope they turn it up," and by the end, when it has your sole focus, it's almost deafening.

munificent 9/4/2025||
When I travel for work, being in meetings all day and in an unusual place can be draining. Many years ago, I developed the habit of when I get back to my hotel room:

* Turn off all the lights

* Lay flat on my back in bed

* Put on headphones

* Listen to a few songs and give them my full attention

It very much helps me unwind after a long day. But it's also astonishing how much more I hear in the music itself when I do this. I remember the first time I listened to Portishead's "Wandering Stars" this way, I could immediately hear the slight push and pull where the organ riff isn't exactly on beat. I'd never noticed that (consciously) before.

waterheater 9/4/2025|||
Some years ago, I snagged a great deal on some Sennheiser HD600s. After also acquiring a Schiit stack (Magni + Modi) and finding high-quality audio sources, I would close my eyes, lay down on the couch, and just listen...actually, I'll call it perceive the music. No other audio experience compares, just like a huge screen which fills your vision is truly the best way to experience a movie.

Virtually all people on the planet perceive the world with their eyes but push the other four physical senses into the background. There's good reason for this reality, of course: of our five physical senses, the eyes are capable of providing the richest information. And yet, most discussion around increasing perceptual abilities are vision-centric. Learning to perceive with your ears, smell, touch, and taste in addition to eyes should also be learned.

wrs 9/4/2025||
I’ve been producing music as a side interest for a long time, and I learned early on that to really hear what’s going on during a mix I have to close my eyes and wait about 30 seconds for my ears to “open up”. My visual sense overrides the soundstage — I can make some technical choices about frequency masking and so forth, but I can’t fully hear with eyes open.
soundattention 9/4/2025|||
If this intrigues you, and you are in the Bay Area, I would recommend checking out Audium.

https://www.audium.org/

Similarly, it places you in a room, turns off the lights, and you listen to an audio performance. Though it is more soundscapes interlaced musically than the Pitch Black Playback's focus on albums.

corny 9/4/2025||
This weekend and next week they will be playing David Bowie's 'Live At Montreux' at Lobe in Vancouver. Lobe is a unique room with the speakers installed in the floor and ceiling. https://lobestudio.ca/new-events/david-bowie-live-at-montreu...
freddier 9/4/2025|
He seems to have hyperphantasia, judging by every example of mental images he described. It's not a requirement, as the example from the other person on the beach didn't need it to feel that level of self-feeding joy.

But I wonder if aphantastic people have a harder time with this? Or maybe easier with less mental distractions?

anentropic 9/4/2025||
I have aphantasia, and I can definitely get deep into music

and to be honest, for me, turning great music into a mental movie seems to be almost missing the point, I prefer experiencing it as music

buildbot 9/4/2025||
I think aphantastic people would be able to but using an inner monologue/internal text? Or even just the feeling and concentration on that feeling?

Tangentially trying to imagine not being able to visualize mental images is really hard.

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