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Posted by genericlemon24 7 days ago

996(lucumr.pocoo.org)
1044 points | 532 commentspage 4
petermcneeley 7 days ago|
If I spend my Saturday in the summer sun planting trees all day in my yard I feel liberated.

If I spend my Saturday toiling for wages digging with my hands, sweating for hours, just please some land owner I feel exploited.

It is not the work or the hours that is the core problem.

jeremyjh 7 days ago|
You aren't going to spend 12 hours a day, 6 days a week working in your garden. When you get hot and tired, you'll stop. I think that is the more relevant difference in this particular topic.
moregrist 6 days ago|||
Growing up on a small farm, I can assure you that people do work 12 hour days for multiple days on end in their fields. You can’t always stop even when you’re tired; farm animals break out, rain will destroy cut hay, etc.

It’s a hard job, and not one that tends to pay well.

petermcneeley 7 days ago|||
> When you get hot and tired, you'll stop

No? This is basically the philosophy of the "last man"

Many great things require overcoming the weakness of the flesh. From the moment you understand the weakness of your flesh it should disgust you.

jeremyjh 7 days ago||
So you are saying you’ve worked in your garden for 12 hours a day? Multiple days in a row?
petermcneeley 7 days ago||
Jokes aside yes people work very hard on things, even for years, if they believe in them. From dawn to dusk; of their own free will.

Work being bad is simply a slave mentality. It is because the slave does not get any return on their effort; only sustenance.

jeremyjh 6 days ago||
So you haven't then?
petermcneeley 6 days ago||
If Garden you mean Software then yes :)
holtkam2 7 days ago||
I don’t get why people think 996 is even optimal for productivity in the medium or long term. If I work hard past 8pm I can’t sleep - my brain is still whirring. That results in worse sleep -> less memory creation & skill consolidation -> lower productivity.

In my mind, if you cared ONLY about productivity in the medium and long term, you’d probably do something like 9-7-6. So you still get a day off, and don’t work past like, dinner time. Still give yourself time to exercise, still give yourself time for social interaction, sleep can stay dialed in. I think someone doing 976 probably out-competes someone doing 996 in short order.

stego-tech 7 days ago||
These times really do feel like those once-in-a-century redefinitions of work and labor, similar to how we got Child Labor Laws and 40-hour work weeks from the labor movement early last century. Intrinsically, more people are realizing that the former social contract was long ago fed into a shredder, and that the lack of a formal contract will have consequences. Technology broke down the 40-hour work week by enabling more work to be done both outside the office and after traditional working hours, drastically increasing productivity and profit while wages stagnated for decades in the face of skyrocketing costs. Now we’re racing ahead towards a breaking point between Capital cheering shit like 996 and AI job-replacement, while more humans can’t afford rent, or food, let alone education or healthcare on their burrito taxi wages.

Something will eventually have to give, if we aren’t proactive in addressing the crises before us. Last time, it took two World Wars, the military bombing miners, law enforcement assassinating union organizers, and companies stockpiling chemical weapons and machine guns before the political class finally realized things must change or all hell would break loose; I only hope we come to our senses far, far sooner this time around.

lifeisstillgood 7 days ago||
We probably need to rethink how companies are structured - there are (many) companies with revenues greater than most countries but are (in theory) dictatorships with no official ability to change course if the one guy who owns the shares does not want to.

Who is the ‘demos’ in a company? Who gets a vote ? Will voting really slow things down?

graemep 6 days ago|||
> here are (many) companies with revenues greater than most countries

IS that true? What do you define as the revenue of a country? Tax revenues? That is just the government. GDP/GNP/GNI? That comparison for that should be profit, and only a handful of really big companies (Saudi Aramco, Apple, that sort of size) have a profit as large as the GDP of mid-size middle income countries (e.g. Sri Lanka) or small rich countries (e.g. Luxembourg). There is a long tail of small or poor countries so most countries by number, but most people live in a country with a GDP that is an order of magnitude or two greater than any company's profit.

hiatus 6 days ago|||
Why would GDP be the proxy for a country's profit? If I pay someone to build a house and another person to tear that house down, both activities contribute to GDP while producing nothing of tangible value.
tempodox 6 days ago|||
If it were the same company, that company would have made profit twice. Or did your house change country before being torn down?
boppo1 6 days ago|||
But they spent the money you paid them and it stimulated the economy! We assume value was created elsewhere. /s

Econ is a crock.

adgjlsfhk1 6 days ago|||
gdp is a revenue like number, not a profit like number.
graemep 6 days ago||
It is closest to value added something most companies do not disclose but is closely related to profit but is NOTHING like revenue.
adgjlsfhk1 6 days ago||
no, if you trade a dollar back and forth 1000 times with a friend, you are adding $1000 to the GDP.
graemep 6 days ago||
If you pay someone a dollar, that is because they supplied you with something worth a dollar - i.e. a dollar's worth of value added to the economy.
adgjlsfhk1 5 days ago||
right, but if an item goes through 10 different factories to be assembled the price each pays from the previous gets added to GDP.
kriops 6 days ago||||
As long as the companies in question aren't monopolies on violence, it's a complete non-issue. So with that in mind, why would any sane person want to impose such an inefficient mechanism to allocate resources and make decisions within a company or corporation?

The only good thing about democracy in the context of a state, after all, is that every other alternative is worse. But that is strictly because of the fundamentally violent nature of the concept of a state, which does not apply to companies or corporations.

HighGoldstein 6 days ago|||
Violence is not always physical. The likes of Meta have subjected the world to unfathomable violence, but we give them a pass because we can't see the scars with our eyes.
samdoesnothing 6 days ago||
Huh? Violence is defined as the use of physical force so as to injure, abuse, damage, or destroy. If you mean "harm", please use that word instead of wrongly using another.
roughly 6 days ago||||
The guy who whispers in the king’s ear also has an effective monopoly on violence.

What we’ve learned over the last half century is that extreme wealth disparities lead to extreme power disparities. Coercion doesn’t just emanate from the state.

TheOtherHobbes 6 days ago||||
You should educate yourself about corporate violence both inside and outside the US - the use of intimidation and murder for strike breaking, the role the Pinkerton agency, the original meaning of "banana republic."

It's tragic - but not accidental - there's no mention of any of this in schools or any public memory of it.

b_e_n_t_o_n 6 days ago||
It's tragic, but it was also illegal, and that's a crucial distinction.
immibis 5 days ago||
Illegal things happen all the time. The current president has committed many crimes and suffered no punishment. Elon Musk is an illegal immigrant. Uber was completely illegal but they did it anyway. The law isn't actually the law - the real law is what gets enforced.
ohdeargodno 6 days ago|||
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b_e_n_t_o_n 6 days ago||
violence is defined specifically as the use of physical force, and I expect the other commentator you're replying to specifically chose that word for a reason.
ohdeargodno 6 days ago||
No, it isn't. Every single definition of violence includes forms other than just physical.

The World Health Organization (WHO) defines violence as "the intentional use of physical force or power, threatened or actual, against oneself, another person, or against a group or community, which either results in or has a high likelihood of resulting in injury, death, psychological harm, maldevelopment, or deprivation

b_e_n_t_o_n 6 days ago||
That's a pretty broad definition. In this context it refers to physical violence only, which is the same definition you'll find in most dictionaries.
cyanydeez 7 days ago|||
Theres a whole swath of positive regulatory structure that would both improve the company and its employees, but capitalism is stuck in the delusion that self interest is the only yardstick we need to concern ourselves with.

Why? Because being poor isnt a structural problem, but a moral or ethical or laziness.

Its fascinating watching business culture basically align with prosperity gospel in that if you can grift it, it _must_ be good/just/right.

ivape 7 days ago|||
To educate people you just need the internet (communication infrastructure). We can also house and feed everyone if we wanted to. The concept of work has been overblown to the point where it’s everything. I can’t even say war will solve it because war puts everyone to work, which is no different than the status quo.

Things are not in place for people to spiritually feel what is actually a good life and world.

It may take a generation of people, who think technology and science will allow them to have many lifetimes over and over, to meet their timely end. We will only reevaluate as we see the most well endowed generation (everyone alive today) return to dust in a timely manner, that there was no magical human power that could have saved any of us, and we ought to have just focused on a better world that we’re proud of leaving behind.

Living life like it’s a roguelike with infinite levels makes it the most unfulfilling thing ever. The world our generation will leave behind is our product, and a quality product is everything, so much so that you’d be proud to leave it in someone’s hand at the end (in fact, you’d want to). The women’s movement that left us a type of America with those fixes (labors rights, human rights) was such a thing to leave behind, they should fear nothing in death.

paulryanrogers 6 days ago||
> To educate people you just need the internet (communication infrastructure).

This is laughably reductive. Certainly the Internet can help people get educated and pop some comfort bubbles, but it's not automatic. Many (most?) humans need personal attention from others to learn. Even fewer place a value on what they're taught, much less learning itself. A significant number of people must have supervision and some proding to become functioning, literate, and informed adults.

All that said, I'd agree with most of your other points.

ivape 6 days ago||
Most children are not educated in school anywhere in the world, historically and currently. How do you want to deal with those facts, because I don’t think you can compare great learning instruction to “no education at all”.

I fully stand by that most people are not educated in school.

Another way of putting is, the number TWO is greater than ZERO, but I’d prefer if we not compare ZERO to anything.

paulryanrogers 6 days ago||
> Most children are not educated in school anywhere in the world, historically and currently.

This is quite a bold claim. So I guess girls in Afghanistan are just as educated as those in Norway?

ivape 4 days ago||
I'm talking very macro. Look, you can sit with an LLM today and go through a topic you once were educated on and see just how many gaps it fills in. So you yourself can see just how many holes there were in your own education. What do you think the case is for the average person living in the world? Do you really think they got a chance to clarify and explore their education? It's blatantly obvious that we've been giving people inadequate education for quite some time.
aftbit 7 days ago|||
Can you elaborate on this?

>companies stockpiling chemical weapons and machine guns

I recognize the historical references in the other clauses of this sentence, but I wasn't aware of companies stockpiling chemical weapons for use against workers. I'm not doubting - just curious to learn more about the dark history here.

Thanks!

supportengineer 7 days ago|||
I have absolutely zero faith that the current political ruling class will “come to their senses”.

All you have to do is observe their current behavior and you will come to the same conclusion.

When billionaires show you who they are, believe them the first time.

They have not lived through a depression and neither have they lived through any major world wars. They will be curious to see how bad it can get and they believe they will remain untouched from it.

AnimalMuppet 7 days ago|||
Neither have they lived through any serious social upheaval.
jeremyjh 7 days ago||
They probably won’t, either.
AnimalMuppet 6 days ago||
Perhaps. I'd say the odds are higher than I thought they were a decade ago, though.
jeremyjh 6 days ago||
I think its unlikely to happen, but also, that they won't live through it if it does.
cyanydeez 7 days ago||||
The current billionaires seem yo know they're headed to apocalypse since theyre building evil lairs. They know history.

The problem is: power is an addiction and like all addictions, some can manage to cope without and others will a absolutely follow a destructive pattern of behavior

b_e_n_t_o_n 6 days ago|||
I think people read too much into this sort of thing. When you have so much money, spending some preparing for a 1/1000000 chance of doom makes total sense, even if you believe we're actually heading for utopia.
cyanydeez 6 days ago||
Sure thing bob. No way there's nothing better to do but be a prepper.
alchemical_piss 6 days ago|||
> The current billionaires seem yo know they're headed to apocalypse since theyre building evil lairs.

It will be apocalypse for us, but a glorious new age of feudalism for them. Why else would they be building castles and describing ideal societies of feudal oaths.

Every single person in the country, regardless of political affiliation should know them as most dangerous domestic enemy.

jaco6 7 days ago|||
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mananaysiempre 7 days ago||
It also took Russia going to shit to an extent that got everybody else scared—and that Russia still hasn’t really recovered from, because repeatedly cutting the elite out of your society (however unfairly it’s gotten there) really fucks that society up.
Maken 7 days ago|||
The same elite is still running Russia today.
mananaysiempre 6 days ago||
On the contrary, most of that elite has been rotting in the ground for nigh on a century. The elite I’m speaking of is the one that existed pre-1917 (with some offshoots and cultural descendants surviving until the 1960s). They weren’t saints by any means (in ways that sometimes rhyme quite well with slavers in the US, including the chronology), and I’m no monarchist, but it’s telling what part of e.g. meaningful science, or even good secondary education can trace its ancestry to people with pre-October-Revolution education (spoiler: all of it).

(To be clear, a university professor in pre-Socialist Russia is very well off compared to most, and except for the for a lucky few the October Revolution treated them accordingly.)

analognoise 7 days ago|||
What?

When America was strongest, we had a large and increasing middle class, and the top marginal tax rate was above 70% - it was in the 90s.

We don’t need “the elite” - they don’t actually “create jobs”, and the “engine of the economy” is just a convenient vehicle for the rich (and private equity) to ruin the middle class further - it was never about “efficient markets”.

If anything what we’ve seen over the last 40 years is that we need better systems.

kevin_thibedeau 7 days ago|||
There is some benefit from having a pool of people with enough funds to take investment risks that the rank and file can't. They can outmaneuver any planned economy. The problem in the US is that those people have engineered themselves a disproportionate wealth disparity that doesn't generate a collective benefit.
analognoise 7 days ago|||
That used to be “industrial policy” - it doesn’t need to be individuals at all. In fact it shouldn’t be - they’re concerned with returns, not jobs and certainly not with any technology that requires a longer timespan to complete.

The Biden administration had excellent industrial policy. Trump had the government steal a 10% share of Intel.

Watching people realize he’s just a criminal loser has been heartening.

alkakKnbhhh 7 days ago|||
[flagged]
blacksmith_tb 7 days ago|||
That's a novel take on diversity, but I think your window is too small. The US was full of similar anti-immigrant sentiment a century ago, directed at southern and eastern European new arrivals. Today no one is calling for Poles and Italians to be deported. The "melting pot" can work, if no one is actively trying to kick it over.
analognoise 7 days ago|||
Considering our success so far, it’s obvious it’s succeeding. You’d have to ignore your eyes and ears to think a multiracial secular democratic country can succeed.

What’s amazing is that racists seem to be trying to screw it up on purpose, then to claim it doesn’t work. “Starve the beast” but for social cohesion. They’re always surprised when they get bitten by the monster they created.

The rich never had “noblesse oblige” - we used to shoot at the factory owner when they didn’t pay us.

I’m not sure what to do with such a limited understanding of history and such an obvious blind spot as this, but then I remember: you can’t reason someone out of a position they didn’t reason themselves into.

andsoitis 7 days ago|||
> When America was strongest, we had a large and increasing middle class, and the top marginal tax rate was above 70% - it was in the 90s.

I think you got this wrong. According to my sources the highest marginal income tax rate was 39.6%.

It was during the 50s, 60s, and 70s that it never dipped below 70%.

Source: https://bradfordtaxinstitute.com/Free_Resources/Federal-Inco...

The other thing is that different dimensions of the economy and other societal aspect have different lagging effects so you cannot simply assume causation or correlation between things during the same time frame.

didgetmaster 7 days ago||
The 'tax the rich' crowd loves to quote the top marginal rates from 50 years ago; but did anyone ever really pay those rates?

Tax shelters were common in those days with the rich paying accountants and tax attorneys to find ways of avoiding those astronomical rates.

analognoise 7 days ago||
Some people tried to evade the system - that’s why we have helicopters. We can just grab them and bring them to court, no problem.

I don’t think “some people didn’t abide the rules” is reason not to make sensible laws.

didgetmaster 6 days ago|||
There is a big difference between tax evasion (illegal) and tax avoidance (completely legal). Many of the tax shelters and loopholes utilized by the rich when top marginal rates exceeded 50% were completely legit.
crossbody 6 days ago|||
Yeah, sure, helicopters is all you need to catch millions of sophisticated tax evaders using semi-legal loopholes developed and implemented by professional accountants and lawyers.

Read about Laffer Curve for a start.

analognoise 6 days ago|||
The Laffer Curve is frequently cited by the same people who refuse to see the failure of conservative-style economic policy over the last 40 years, for some reason.

It’s clear all that “don’t tax the rich, they create jobs!” Is just trash. Noise. We have 40 years of data, it doesn’t work.

But still, someone ignores all that to tell me the Laffer Curve, every time. What’s also amazing is that they don’t really understand it themselves. Wild.

didgetmaster 6 days ago|||
So we have 40 years of data that clearly shows that advocating for reasonable tax rates for the wealthy "doesn't work"? I world love to see the detailed analysis that proves that!

Even the most staunch conservative wants the rich to pay their "fair share" of taxes. The only legitimate debate is about what constitutes 'fair'. The flat tax advocates will at least give you a real number (10%, 15%, or even 20%). Progressives will never give you a number. Why?

crossbody 5 days ago|||
So you disagree with the core principle behind Laffer Curve?

Lots of totally baseless assumptions and accusations in your comment. I wonder where on Dunning-Kruger curve you are at regarding this topic.

immibis 6 days ago|||
> Read about Laffer Curve

Your comment lost all credibility right here

analognoise 6 days ago||
Agreed; it’s an embarrassing argument.
TrackerFF 7 days ago||
I've noticed the same here in Europe. Founders are really pushing the "Everyone should be doing 996 minimum", arguing that anything else is simply laziness, and that it is impossible to build a billion dollar company any other way.

But, of course, like many here have noted...there's billion dollar difference in incentives between a founder, and even the early members. For a "rank and file" engineer, you're sacrificing your life to make someone else filthy rich. And if lucky, you'll be left with a payday that's not too different from a regular industry job...

getnormality 6 days ago||
If America wants to emulate China it should start with the good qualities, like actually learning math in school.
fr_lsl 1 day ago||
The American system often prioritizes creativity and critical thinking, whereas the Chinese system is known for discipline and high performance on standardized tests. Simply copying one system into the context of another would likely fail.
cnfczn 1 day ago||
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jackdawed 7 days ago||
Small business owners work 997 and you don't see them incessantly posting about it. That's the catch, though. They own the business. Founders can subject themselves to 996 all they want but it's a failure of management to expect that from employees for less than 1% equity.

I took a break from tech to open my own bookstore and I definitely work more hours than when I worked at a pre-IPO $7B startup. I'm way less stressed. At least my bookstore doesn't wake me up at 3am 3 nights in a row, and expect me to come to work the next day.

MagMueller 6 days ago||
I worked for 2 years in a co-working space full of founders next to ETH Zurich. The most consistent worker? The cleaning lady. Every morning at 6 am, she did not miss a single day.

I grew up in a small village in Germany. 500 people, 5000 cows. Only farmers and a cheese factory. In the factory, we worked on Christmas, Easter, and New Year's Eve every morning at 5 am. Farmers don't take days off because cows don't take days off.

Maybe it's not the most healthy way of life. I don't think it physically requires us to take time.

cm2012 7 days ago||
I don't understand what people spend their time at work on. I have a very successful career, top .01% income for my age bracket, and never worked more than 40 hours at one job in my life.
gitaarik 6 days ago||
Trying hard to get a startup off the ground because you'll get shares, and you think you can make it work.
_DeadFred_ 1 day ago||
For me it was 'superman syndrome', I got my personal feeling of worth by what I had accomplished lately. Not a healthy way to go at it.
OutOfHere 7 days ago||
I think the problem is larger, which is that individual workers don't feel empowered to launch a firm of their own. If I am often coding at 11 pm, it's certainly not for any employer.
santiagobasulto 6 days ago|
You're all answering from a very privileged standpoint. I started my career in tech from a small town in Argentina. When broadband was prevalent around the world (2012) I was still working with a dial up connection on a $200 computer.

I grew up seeing what poverty and lack of opportunities does to people, and I was determined to break away from that.

I got a job at a startup by sheer luck, and it completely changed my life. Heck, I was not even doing 996, I was getting up at 7AM and going to bed at midnight EVERY DAY including Sundays.

When I was not squashing tickets at a 2X rate than my European coworkers, I was learning new things, trying out new projects, writing blog posts for the company, doing customer support. I didn't care.

So yes, I agree now (from a privileged position) that 996 might be unhealthy in the long run. But let's not gate-keep or be naive enough to understand that some kids will need to put that effort if they want to make a difference. And yes, ideally the world would be fair and everybody should need only 40hs/week to make a living, butt that's a fairy tale.

If you're a young ambitious above-average person, and you're going to listen to people claiming this is "bad", please also compare your to their privileges: race, geographic position, net worth of your family, etc...

fzeroracer 6 days ago||
> If you're a young ambitious above-average person, and you're going to listen to people claiming this is "bad", please also compare your to their privileges: race, geographic position, net worth of your family, etc...

I grew up dirt poor from a family of fishermen that were bankrupt before I even left highschool. 996 is bad, companies are taking advantage of people and it needs to be stomped out like a fire waiting to burn.

wiseowise 6 days ago|||
I went from piss dirt poor to relatively wealthy situation – this is bad. Just because I went through bad, doesn’t mean someone else had to suffer it.
ponector 6 days ago|||
>> people claiming this is "bad

There is no circumstances when it is good. Especially if it is pushed by employer/manager. If you want to work 996 or 7 days per week, or without annual vacations - it's your choice but no way anyone should be pushed to work that way.

johnsmith1840 6 days ago||
Vacation and choice is a luxury the majority of the world does not have, you are making his point.

The mentality they are saying is the mentality that has given you the luxury of vacation and choice. The west did not rise to its place without an incredible amount of suffering.

ponector 6 days ago||
Almost all countries have mandatory vacations, by law. How is it a luxury?

I'm not taking about trip to Maldives for a vacation. Just a paid rest from work.

johnsmith1840 6 days ago||
Oh u right I'm just making stuff up my bad
johnsmith1840 6 days ago|||
Very true.

I had a coworker (Phd Stanford) go and tell a bunch of poorer neighborhood highschoolers "you don't need a phd to be sucessful" while partially true it's painful to watch those sitting in the sweat and blood of their forefathers discuss how it's actually morally wrong to work as they did.

Thank god for H1B because foreigners are the only ones who actually seem to understand this anymore.

USA has a "nobel class" it's almost identical to the british empires class structure. Thr upper class of the british empire directly thought working hard was a negative hence the "gentlemen" did almost nothing.

Your job in life is progress not to subsist on your parents and grandparents work.

davedx 6 days ago|||
I don’t know if I would classify “living in a country with labour laws” as “very privileged”
santiagobasulto 6 days ago||
In some countries, access to drinking potable water is a privilege. Imagine "labour laws".
lentil_soup 6 days ago|||
Hard disagree. What does privilege have to do with this? Why do you need to work in those conditions because you're poorer? I'm all up for making a huge effort to get out of a shitty situation, but giving it away to a company makes no sense.

I'm also from South America, I don't think promoting people to kill themselves working for someone else is the way out

throwawayohio 6 days ago||
What does this even mean? You literally say that you were working harder than your coworkers. Was your job under threat or something? This just sounds like an unhealthy case of imposter syndrome.

> But let's not gate-keep or be naive enough to understand that some kids will need to put that effort if they want to make a difference.

Sure, they'll make a difference for the founders/CEOs of these companies, who will walk away completely minted while their employees might pull enough out to get a house. IF the venture doesn't die before exit.

1penny42cents 6 days ago||
OP wanted to distance themselves as far from a bad economic environment as they could.

For people early in their careers, working hard is the best way to grow their future earnings and opportunities. They have too few skills, connections, and experience to differentiate otherwise.

Focusing only on the asymmetry between those with and without meaningful equity misses the point.

Not everyone is lucky enough to get equity from day one. The rest of us have (at most) a few critical points in our careers to do well enough such that we get a shot at meaningful equity at some point in the future.

For those from underprivileged backgrounds, they’re lucky to get even one chance in their careers for meaningful growth.

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