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Posted by excerionsforte 5 days ago

Apple Debuts iPhone 17(www.apple.com)
102 points | 279 commentspage 2
xenonite 5 days ago|
Camera lens angles of the 17 Pro seem strange to me.

Either too wide (1x) or too narrow (4x), as seen in the live stream video, which was recorded with the iPhone 17 Pro.

I am currently on the 13 Pro, I find the 3x mode ideal for portrait photos and videos.

Is it only me with this impression? Could someone help me to jump back into Apple's reality distortion field?

Aloisius 5 days ago||
The 17 Pro has a much higher resolution camera than the 13 Pro, so even if you center crop of a photo taken with the 2x optical zoom to get you what you'd see with a 3x, it will still be higher resolution than the same photo taken with the 13 Pro.

That said, I too like a 70 mm lens, but I long ago got used to just moving closer to or further away from subjects to take photos with dedicated cameras depending on what lens I had on.

trymas 5 days ago||
Same. Because zooming from 1x to 3.99x is digital zoom - IMHO too much quality is lost.
exabrial 5 days ago||
I would really like stainless as a material, not AL/TI alloy. It'd be a few grams difference, but infinitely more scratch and bend resistant.

Maybe if the Larrin Thomas came up with some catchy new stainless formulation and called it AppleCut or something...

rafram 5 days ago|
Pre-iPhone 15, the Pro models used stainless steel for the frame. Not sure exactly why they ditched it, but it did have a reputation for collecting fingerprints.
npunt 5 days ago||
The weight difference in the hand between the 14 pro in stainless and the 15 pro in titanium is considerable, I use both every day. Sometimes weight is a way to denote solid and premium like in watches, but with the size of phones and how we use them, being lightweight is really where it’s at.
BurningFrog 5 days ago||
Each new model has an asymptotically smaller feature bump. In 10 years we may have converged on the complete cell phone.

Maybe the recent introduction of foldable phones indicates the opposite. Is it the final blip, or will something similarly disruptive happen every 5-7 years?

Discuss.

ethbr1 5 days ago||
Imho, there are only two unsolved problems in mobile devices: (1) maximizing screen size (in a portable form factor) and (2) input method.

Anything else on the hardware side is mostly noise.

If I had to futurism bet, it'd be on eyeglass AR + pocket device being the next major change. With input method for that still tbd.

eloisant 5 days ago|||
We converged already 5 years ago, the feature bumps we're getting now are artificially created for marketing reasons.
BlackjackCF 5 days ago||
Yeah. When I refreshed from an 11 to a 15 Pro… the only noticeable difference was the better camera.
steve_adams_86 5 days ago||
It's a remarkably good camera for a phone. But I agree. I went from the 2020 SE to the 15 Pro and it was kind of whatever. Well, the screen's higher refresh rate is nice to look at too. That isn't really new to phones in general so much as it is to iPhones, though.
Gys 5 days ago||
The number of models increase, the number of noticeable features decrease. All marketing, no vision.
mandeepj 5 days ago||
I recently started studying metal, so I was watching their metal choices with a bit of curiosity.

Apple switched iPhone 17 Pro from Titanium (used in earlier versions) to aerospace-grade Aluminium for Superior Heat Dissipation.

But for the iPhone Air, they are using Titanium because it's lightweight, strong, and durable.

Aluminum is definitely a softer metal, so using aerospace-grade aluminum makes sense. So, is Titanium not a good thermal conductor? If it is not, then why is it used in the iPhone Air?

Sorry! Their choice is not clear to me. Can someone throw light on it?

ktta 5 days ago||
Since iPhone Air is thinner, it needs to use titanium for the increased rigidity to avoid another iPhone 6-eqsue 'bendgate' at the risk of worse heat dissipation
Hamuko 5 days ago|||
My guess would be that an aluminum iPhone Air would bend, so they were forced to make it from titanium to keep it thin.
runjake 5 days ago|||
Aluminum conducts heat about 10 times more effectively than titanium.

Phone material choices come down to which compromises you will settle for.

There are similar compromises with types of glass chosen. One type is more scratch resistance, but more prone to shatter from falls, and vice versa.

mikestew 5 days ago||
Smaller frame on the Air, so titanium for additional strength and resistance to bending?
giancarlostoro 5 days ago||
I have a 12 Pro, I am definitely going to be upgrading, I've had my phone for 5 years now (since 2020) that's actually longer than I've owned any other cell phone without upgrading.

I think I could probably squeeze more life out of my phone, but the 17 has a nicer camera, me and my wife are noticing our relatives with newer iPhones have photographs that look slightly (I meant to write NOTICEABLY here) better. As we raise our first child, having a quality camera is definitely important to us.

I was really tempted by the iPhone Air, but the Pro has better camera features. I am actually really excited to see what they will do for the iPads. If they release a thin iPac Mini similar to the iPhone Air, I would immediately buy it. I am not usually a fan of thin, but something in me has always wanted a thin iPad Mini, not sure why, but I'm waiting for it still.

Great demo, the most impressive demo had to have been the Airpod Pros translation piece.

Edit: Needed to annotate that I wrote 'slightly better' but its not just slightly, we both visually noticed a different in quality.

One last note, the 12 Pro was my first iPhone ever. I was on Android since 2009, every Android I had lasted about 2 years. My last one probably would have lasted me 5 years but I was tired and wanted a change at my 2 year mark. I have not regretted my decision to date.

kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
The issue with the camera in newer iphones is that it uses an Ai engine to smooth things and add details that aren’t there.

If you want reference tier photos for documenting family history, modern mirrorless is better. DSLR from 10-15 years ago is also still great in all but the most challenging light conditions, where you could simply use a flash.

Jaxan 5 days ago|||
Especially on babies, the smoothing or noise reduction is weird. A newborn has a very specific skin with an enormous amount of details/speckles/marks. It’s very hard to capture for some reason. Couldn’t do it with my phone, only with a proper camera and shooting in raw.
KAMSPioneer 5 days ago||
Hard agree. As a new parent, I bought a modern mirrorless camera before my kid was born, and the difference is noticeable. Especially, as you say, around skin details like milia (white spots on a newborn's skin) which often get wiped out on my Pixel (I'm sure by the AI processing).

If you are considering an expensive phone upgrade based off of the camera alone, consider buying a dedicated camera first, I say. I know the best camera is the one you have on you, etc...

kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
When you think about all the stuff you schlep around with a kid, whats a few more ounces in a camera at that point.
markhalonen 5 days ago|||
big discussion was had around this a month ago https://candid9.com/phone-camera/
_aavaa_ 5 days ago|||
If you want another big bump in image quality I recommend you use Adobe’s Project Indigo app instead of the default camera app.

Difference is especially startling for HDR and portraits, particularly backlight ones where the stock app does some hideous segmentation-based “enhancements”.

giancarlostoro 5 days ago||
Wait WHAT! Thank you so much!
zdc1 5 days ago|||
Yeah. Comparing to my iPhone 14 Pro, improvements are mostly just the camera and the screen. So it's really just about what you want a newer/better camera in your pocket. I'm going to wait one more year, but I do love that we're at the stage where a phone and a laptop can go for 4-5 years without feeling less than "modern".

Just be mindful that those extra megapixels will need some extra storage.

giancarlostoro 5 days ago||
Thats fair, I dont see people two generations behind benefiting from it, but for me its a bit of a bump up.
mattkrick 5 days ago|||
I’m in the exact same boat. Also toying with the idea of going back to android for the pixel 10 pro. I do miss android notifications and keyboard. Are there any features keeping you from going back?
giancarlostoro 5 days ago||
The whole family is on iPhone, we use Mac now the way everything integrates together I just dont see myself going back. I spent way more on Android and Windows than I have on Apple products. My Macbook Pro with an M4 Pro chip costs half of what my Surface Book 2 laptop costs, and I can do more on it especially with AI locally.

Something about iOS and macOS just feels right. Any time I boot up my old Android phones they feel like a convoluted mess.

dingaling 5 days ago|||
> As we raise our first child, having a quality camera is definitely important to us.

A phone camera isn't really a camera, it's a digitally-airbrushed impression of reality. There just isn't enough light hitting the tiny sensor through the tiny lens.

I have 20 year old 5MP DLSR portrait photos that are still better than what a 120MP phone can produce, because it's the lens that counts.

mschaef 5 days ago|||
I have a couple DSLR's and a large frame compact, and I wholly get your point. The image quality on even an older DSLR is better, mainly due to the physics of the optics - there's nothing like a high quality lens dumping a bunch of light on a large sensor.

However.... it's really hard to overstate the workflow and convenience aspects of shooting with a phone. (Particularly as a parent, and even moreso when I was a new parent of a small child.) The phone has the twin benefits of 1) being present almost always and 2) being immediately able to process and transmit an image to the people you might want to see it. For the 99% case, that's far more useful than even a very significant improvement in image quality. For the 1% where it matters, I can and do either hire a professional (with better equipment than my own) or make the production of dragging out my DSLR and all that it entails. This is like so many other cases where inarguable technical excellence of a sort gives way to convenience and cost issues. IOW, "Better" is not just about Image Quality.

runjake 5 days ago||||
My ancient Canon Rebel camera, I think a T3i, takes stunningly detailed photos against even my iPhone 15 Pro.

But, I never have my Canon and it's too bulky to carry around everyday. I do carry my iPhone everywhere I go. And so, the capabilities of my iPhone camera are more important.

I imagine this is the same for the overwhelming majority of people.

prmoustache 5 days ago||
Having said that you also have the midway option with large sensor compact cameras. A ricoh GR III/IV with an APS-C sensor is heavier than a smartphone but not overly so and more compact as it actually fit a pocket. A Canon G9X is even lighter with a 1" sensor.
mschaef 5 days ago|||
Some of it's size, some of it the fact that the camera is a second device, and some of it's workflow.

I tried a Sony RX100 (1" sensor) when they first came out, optimistic about the possibility of using it for 'general purpose' photography. After all, it's small enough.

The problem was, it's a second device to carry around and keep charged. Then once you capture the image, it's largely stuck on the device until you find a way to offload your images. I briefly experimented with cables that would let me do things like transfer images from the RX100 to my (Android at the time) mobile phone, for archiving and sending to family and friends. That turned the whole thing into the sort of science fair project that I didn't have time for as the parent of a very young child. (Although in fairness, I can't think of a single time in my life when I'd have had the patience, kids or not.)

This is why, for all the arguments you can make against them as cameras, I've come to be very thankful for the amount of effort that Apple and others have made to get appealing images out of devices I always carry around anyway. I can take a set of pictures, edit them, have them automatically archived to cloud storage, and send them to whoever I want.. all with a single device I was carrying around anyway.

This leaves open the fact that the 'real' camera workflow is still an option when there's the need for higher image quality and the time (or money to hire a photographer) to take advantage of what a DSLR or the like can do.

(When I compare what I can do with my iPhone to what my parents had available to them (a 110 format camera and 35mm Nikons), I like the tradeoffs a lot better. the image quality available now is definitely better than the 110. Some of those 35mm exposures are probably better quality than what I can get out of an iPhone, but they're all stuck in albums and slides, and nobody ever looks at them. )

secabeen 5 days ago|||
> Then once you capture the image, it's largely stuck on the device until you find a way to offload your images. I briefly experimented with cables that would let me do things like transfer images from the RX100 to my (Android at the time) mobile phone, for archiving and sending to family and friends. That turned the whole thing into the sort of science fair project that I didn't have time for as the parent of a very young child. (Although in fairness, I can't think of a single time in my life when I'd have had the patience, kids or not.)

Most modern cameras now have a WiFi-based photo transfer system that works pretty well. It's not instantaneous, but it is quick enough to copy the photo you want to share with a friend or partner while you finish a meal or drink your coffee.

kridsdale3 4 days ago||
This is true, but switching to that mode is frustrating and you often have to use AWFUL mobileOS software to get the images. And my DLSL shoots like 25FPS and each raw file is 80MB. This is NOT fast to send over the wifi.

Waiting until I can plug in the 2TB memory card to my Mac and use a huge screen to review all the photos is far more efficient even if it has much higher startup latency.

Honestly this is a good reason to choose the iPhone Pro over the Air or Standard: 10gbps USB port. Plug the Nikon in to the phone for cloud upload. This would be the fastest path of all. Most people are only focused on the USB bandwidth in the iPhones for download from the phone.

prmoustache 5 days ago|||
The RX100 has had wifi transfer since the 3rd gen.

I understand the "second device to carry around" but it isn't a real point for baby pics you might take at home. A ridiculous number of times I have no idea where I last put my phone anyway and sometimes have to make it ring from kde connect on my laptop so it is not like a smartphone is necessarily readily available at all time anyway.

I also know a number of people who don't leave home with their smartphone amyway for short errands since they have an apple watch, that leave one pocket available for those that would prefer having a camera.

mschaef 4 days ago||
> The RX100 has had wifi transfer since the 3rd gen.

On an iPhone, I can take the picture and I'm immediately a button press away from a photo editor and then whoever I want to send it to.

(A camera that automatically tethered to a phone and dumped pictures into the phone's camera roll would mostly solve the workflow issues I'm mentioning here. Would not surprise me if this already exists.)

> I understand the "second device to carry around" but it isn't a real point for baby pics you might take at home.

Maybe. The camera still has to be charged and in mind and hand. (Then as soon as the kids leave the house you're back to where you were and having to carry something around that you might not otherwise.)

> I also know a number of people who don't leave home with their smartphone anyway

I see that... different people have different sorts of relationships with personal electronics. For me, it wound up being that I'd carry a cell phone and that was about it. Even in the pre-smartphone days, when I might have carried a PDA, I either wouldn't or couldn't.

mrheosuper 5 days ago|||
> and more compact as it actually fit a pocket

People not gonna let their phone at home and carry the camera only. Having separate camera means you have to carry 2 devices at the same time.

mrheosuper 5 days ago|||
The best camera is the one you have on hand.
kridsdale3 4 days ago||
The actual best camera is the one you have on your head (Meta Glasses / Vision Pro / GoPro).

I have a number of great videos with my baby that required me to have both hands in-use. Only have those videos because of the above devices.

kjsingh 5 days ago||
I am waiting for someone to clear the iphone air with the jeans back pocket test :)
giancarlostoro 5 days ago||
Fair! I am also curious, I do hope they keep making iPhone Air models, I could see myself buying it in the future.
doctoboggan 5 days ago||
I am looking to upgrade my phone, and at the same time leave my carrier (Verizon). The price I pay for 2 people compared to the price I see out there for other carriers is just too large.

Any suggestions for me while I shop around for "tier 2" carriers? I am primarily concerned with price, and then network coverage second (I am OK with sometimes being throttled, but would prefer to avoid large gaps in any coverage).

the_gastropod 5 days ago||
You've got other good answers. But basically: there's no reason to not go with an MVNO. It's literally the same service for a fraction of the price. Pick one with whatever main carrier has the best coverage in your area.

Wikipedia has a solid table of U.S. MVNO's, for a good starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mobile_virtual_network...

samename 5 days ago|||
I use Visible which uses Verizon’s network, at a steep discount. Never had any issues.
dylan604 5 days ago|||
What happens when the sub-carrier gets deprioritized so that the main carrier's customers get priority? How frequently does your bandwidth suffer? You say never, but is that really the case or you've just become used to it? I know several people on these places like Boost or Metro or whatever, and their streaming experiences definitely take hits
vel0city 5 days ago|||
I use Mint which was an MVNO for T-Mobile. They've since been acquired by T-Mobile, but I haven't really experienced any difference in service. I also haven't used Visible, so I can't directly speak to that but Visible is owned by Verizon FWIW.

I probably experience times with deprioritization. 5G service can go from getting several hundred megabits with pretty low latencies to only getting a few megabits with potentially up to 100ms or so latency, depending on crowds. I don't recall any times where I had good signal but couldn't get any data, but definitely been in places where it'll struggle to do video chats or something at a big live event that doesn't have the extra 5G infra deployed. For example, an extra large crowd at the park for some event will probably give poor network experience but I'll otherwise get good connectivity in a modern sports arena.

In the end it's just a value proposition. Is having really fast network everywhere, all the time really that worth it to you? For many the answer is yes. But for me, on my personal device, if I'm getting poor data rates that's probably a clue I should really be putting my phone down and get back into whatever is happening in the park so I don't mind and the savings are quite nice.

jerlam 5 days ago|||
For Visible, anything above their cheapest plan will give you the same priority as postpaid Verizon. Many prepaid carriers will gladly take more money to shift you to a higher priority.

There is a list of all the prioritization tiers (aka QCI, or premium data) on all the three main US carriers here:

https://old.reddit.com/r/NoContract/comments/1mxogtx/data_pr...

amluto 5 days ago||||
I used to use them, and I had two issues:

1. Their international plan is garbage, and if you don’t use the international plan, you cannot usefully use them as a phone-and-SMS-over-WiFi only solution in conjunction with another carrier. Competitors like USMobile do not have this problem.

2. Their customer support and website are very bad.

samename 5 days ago||
SMS works over WiFi? Or is that only RCS? Not familiar with this
amluto 5 days ago||
SMS seems to work on “Wi-Fi Calling” aka “VoWiFi” despite the name rather strongly suggesting voice.
doctoboggan 5 days ago|||
Yeah Visible keeps popping up on recommendation threads. I'll take a look at their offers. Do you suggest I buy a phone through them, or purchase from apple directly and bring it to the plan?
samename 5 days ago||
Unless they offer a discount, there won’t be a benefit buying through them, especially with eSIM.
samcat116 5 days ago|||
US Mobile is really good. You can also get on any carrier you want via it (and multiple if you are really inclined)
xnx 5 days ago||
I've been satisfied with Mint. I look a Google Fi 2x a year, but Mint is still cheaper.
Choco31415 5 days ago||
Can confirm. I’m currently on Mint and have used Tello before. They both offer great service.
drumhead 5 days ago||
I've got a Pixel, this new iPhone hasnt got anything that convinces me to move to Apple. There's nothing compelling there, not technologically or aesthetically. Yes its more powerful, but what do they do with that power but play games? Until some new application emerges where that much power is needed I'll stick to the cheaper phones.
nik736 5 days ago|
The Pixel is not cheaper. When comparing the Pixel 10 to the iPhone 17, the iPhone offers double the storage for the same price, while having all other iPhone features.
matrix87 4 days ago||
Pixels usually offer better black friday deals, you can get 100-200 off (at least when I got my 8)
kingsleyopara 5 days ago||
Surprising there’s no matte-black iPhone 17 Pro - dark, low-reflectance finishes are standard in pro video kit because they minimise specular reflections and stray highlights; keeping a shiny silver finish and skipping a subdued matte black feels like a strange choice and undercuts the “Pro” claim.
linkage 5 days ago||
It's not a strange choice at all when you realize that the majority of people use phone cases and it's more difficult to make matte "pop" in promotional content
runjake 5 days ago|||
Movie people don't normally care about the finish of the iPhone they are using. And the ones that do, use a case.

I've seen all sorts of non-black (let alone matte black) iPhone rigs used for motion pictures, including white and natural titanium colors. Eg. 28 Years Later used a variety of iPhone configurations and colors.

But yeah, I'm surprised there's no black/space gray option this year. Some consumers won't buy any other color.

seanmcdirmid 5 days ago|||
I wonder if someone will come up with the idea of vinyl wrap to protect your phone rather than using a slipon phone case. Then...you could have your phone be thin and get that matte finish. Couple that with a matte phone screen protector and I think the result would be pretty nice.
doublepg23 5 days ago|||
Isn’t this d-brands original business model?
ihuman 5 days ago|||
Dbrand makes those
kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
These have never been actual pro devices. Arguably not even prosumer. You probably don’t want scorched earth ai processing done on your photos as a pro but that is what the iPhones have been doing as of late. Most damning is no way to turn that off.
astrange 5 days ago|||
There is no such thing as a digital camera without processing. But third party camera apps can get images as raw as they want them and it supports professional video standards.

Try Halide with "Process Zero" if you want that, but I'm pretty sure the most popular 3p camera apps are Asian beauty apps that do far more and far worse quality processing.

kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
Sure there is. Shoot in Raw format. Get a file representing a matrix of the sensor readout for each rgb pixel. Your post processing software of choice handles interpolation to the method of your choice.
astrange 5 days ago|||
> the sensor readout for each rgb pixel

Camera pixels are only one color at a time:

GGRR

BBGG

(quad-Bayer; Fujifilm uses a weirder one called X-Trans. And some of them will be missing because they're damaged or are focus pixels.)

And then you still have to do white balance and tone mapping, because your eyes do that and the camera sensor doesn't.

kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
There is a big difference between interpolation (dealing with the bayer or xtrans array and delivering a 3 layer image file in your choice of format and bit depth using your choice of algorithms), shooting for white balance or tone mapping with a color card and calibrated monitor if you care about that level of accuracy, and what Apple is doing which is black box ML subtly yassifying your images and garbling small printed text. Especially when the commenters use case is building out the family archive and not posting selfies on Instagram.
astrange 4 days ago||
> shooting for white balance or tone mapping with a color card and calibrated monitor if you care about that level of accuracy

You need to do this if you want to see the image at all, and it involves a lot of subjective choices. The objective auto white balance algorithm usually described is objectively quite bad; for instance it's always described as a single transformation on the image, which doesn't make sense if there are multiple light sources.

The reason you'd want to render humans differently in the image is that a) if you don't get skin tones just right they'll look like corpses b) in real life you can choose to focus on a subject in a scene and this will cause them to appear brighter (because your eyes will adapt to them) but in an image there isn't that flexibility and so it helps to guess what the foreground of the image is and expose for that.

I forgot to say recent iPhone cameras let you turn off the sharpening effects anyway, just move the photographic style control down to Natural. It is true that the sharpening is kind of bad. This is because someone taught everyone that digital images are bandlimited so they use frequency-based sharpening algorithms, but they aren't, so those just give you ringing artifacts. For some reason nobody knows about warp-sharpen anymore.

snowwrestler 5 days ago|||
Which you can do on an iPhone, so I’m not sure what the complaint is.
al_borland 5 days ago||
I really like the new unibody design on the 17 Pro, as well as the orange. That seems like the first iPhone might feel like bypassing the case. However, seeing as I just got a 16 Pro last year, I don't think I can justify an upgrade just yet.

Overall this year seemed much better than last year.

kblissett 5 days ago||
The AT&T carrier deals this year are wild. It seems like they’ll just throw a new phone at you for free as long as you agree to stay for 3 years.
Citizen8396 5 days ago|||
Beyond the price of their services, they're probably thinking of all the data they can collect and sell in that time.
jerlam 5 days ago|||
Prepaid is so competitive now that "a free phone" is one of the few reasons to go postpaid (other than ignorance).
kjkjadksj 5 days ago||
The glass screen is why you want a case not the frame.
onre 5 days ago|
I'm typing this on a 6S Plus, and so far it seems like this'll do until iOS 15 patching stops.
cluoma 5 days ago|
I think I'm throwing in the towel on my 7 Plus this year. I'd love to keep it around for a bit longer but too many apps and websites are no longer functional. It's starting to become a usability issue.
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