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Posted by ingve 9/13/2025

The case against social media is stronger than you think(arachnemag.substack.com)
348 points | 290 commentspage 2
mallowdram 9/14/2025|
The missing link to our epistemic collapse is language. The acceleration of language, which is arbitrary, accelerates language distortion. The contagion on social media is merely a symptom of the disease of language.

“Historical language records reveal a surge of cognitive distortions in recent decades” https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2102061118

throawaywpg 9/14/2025|
acceleration? as in the literal speed at which we translate information through language?
mallowdram 9/14/2025||
Not translate it, simply transmitting it. This stuff is just arbitrary. we can say anything we want, it means nothing. Look at high speed conflicts now, each side accuses the other of being the same villain. It means we're saying nothing.

The initial conditions are arbitrary, very indirect perception. How we ever assumed we were communicating is quite strange. Everything is primate, every word is first a negotiation for status. Then control. Perhaps manipulation. That words words refer directly to anything outside of a momentary context is impossible. Plus every word isn't simply arbitrary, it's metaphors, and they separate things by attributes that are based in folk science/psychology. We basically have to unlearn and replace words.

amatecha 9/14/2025||
"everyone publicly talking in the same room" social media really sucks. I've really enjoyed the smaller-scale, better-curated interaction on mastodon. It feels like a giant step forward in how people can connect and socialize online.
beeflet 9/14/2025|
A giant step forward into the echo chamber
amatecha 9/14/2025|||
I interpret this as "I expect my opinions to be heard by people who don't want to hear them". Show me the ill effects of having an opt-in, consent-based social space where it's not infiltrated by unwelcome participants?
zeta0134 9/14/2025|||
Well, imagine for a moment that the unwelcome participants are the ones against murder. Everyone currently in the group thinks murdering people who disagree with you is a fine way to solve problems. Outsiders might share insights and opinions to discourage this way of thinking, so they're not allowed to join.
amatecha 9/15/2025||
Yeah? That's the nature of social circles. To take the example further, I definitely won't be able to work my way into a social circle of violent criminals who murder rival gang members and think murder is okay. I will not be on board with their general way of life and general perspective on the value of human life, or my overall aversion to committing crimes. They will definitely not "let me in" (unless they intend to exploit me as an unwitting participant in something, lol)

The jist of what I'm saying is, I don't feel like I have a right to join every conversation everywhere just because I have a computer and an internet connection. Groups of people have established norms for what's acceptable and what's not. For once, those social boundaries, the delineation between one group of people and another, can actually be represented in server-to-server communication permissions.

That doesn't mean that "murdering ppl who disagree with you is okay" people will never interact with the "murdering ppl who disagree with you is bad" people. They just probably won't be on the very same server, but the servers will probably communicate between each other unless the conflict level gets particularly high, at which time one server may defederate from or block the other. I regularly see opinions and views I don't agree with or share. Life isn't so black and white, I don't (and my server doesn't) block people just because they say something a bit spicy or weird. Some people/servers might, but the idea is that, for myself, I can interact with those different chunks of humanity in a way that works for me. All part of the word I keep saying, "agency".

Beyond all that, I've not seen anyone provide any reasons that an opt-in consent-based medium has any ill effects.

beeflet 9/14/2025|||
Firstly, there is still pretty centralized moderation done through the bureaucracy of mastodon operators and federation. Similar situation in bluesky. The whole advantage of these "networks" is that they allow you to opt-in to blocklists. A federation essentially becomes a massive aggregation of blocklists, because members that do not obey the blocking policies of others will become defederated. These aren't really opt-in consent-based social spaces here because the vast majority of the "consent" is still delegated by a third party.

These networks appeal to control freaks who subscribe to many massive blocklists so they don't have to confront challenging ideas. I oppose them on the grounds that being a control freak is bad for the individual and society in general.

Unfortunately, we are all unwelcome participants in society at large. This is the idea behind protests for example. Real life is not consent-based, so the more time you spend in these networks the more poorly acclimated to reality you will become and the more removed you will be from the public arena of ideas.

The ill-effects are that whatever (political?) faction that embraces these sort of networks will become mentally weak and will continue to lose debates, and eventually (political?) power.

amatecha 9/14/2025||
I don't know about whoever you're referring to but I actually just want to chat with cool people (and hear about what they're up to) and don't want to see any bigoted, ignorant bullshit. It has worked out so well that I have zero interest in any other "social networking" protocol/software whatsoever. In my circles I see exactly zero control freaks, probably because I only associate/interact with people who have respect for the agency of others. I just block/mute people who violate that agency (tho I've only had to do so once or twice) and the server I'm on generally correlates with that vibe.

The "public arena of ideas" has almost nothing to offer me. If I dare to peruse something like Reddit or Twitter I am immediately aware of the overwhelming averageness of the ideas and degree of insight generally at hand. Such places are poor venues for depthful, nuanced discussion, especially about any difficult topics, especially with the outrage-bolstering "algorithms" in full force, forcing divisive content in everyone's face.

tdb7893 9/14/2025|||
Echo chambers aren't good but the large scale social media I've tried has a tendency to put me in an echo chamber (specifically one trying to wring out all the engagement possible, often with stuff to make me angry) and also elevate low quality opinions (often factually incorrect or philosophically incoherent).

Smaller and more personally curated social media has been better for sourcing broad opinions actually if I put just a little work into it.

alexpotato 9/14/2025||
A lot of the comment seem to ignore Hotelling's Law [0].

When applied to politics the game plan is:

- In a two party system, start by framing your message to the middle of your party

- This means you capture everyone from middle of your party to the political middle of the population (we'll call these the "closest to center") AND get a few folks farther out from your middle

- This will help you win the "primaries"

- After that, you want to slowly drift towards the middle of the population. This allows you to pull most of the "close to center" folks from your party AND people from the other side

NOTE: the other side should be doing the exact same but coming from the other direction.

Now, people may also ask "Why not start out in the population middle??". The reason is that you:

a. don't win any primaries this way

b. you get "crowded out" by the winners of the two party primaries

0 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hotelling%27s_law

api 9/13/2025||
It's more specific than social media. It's engagement maximizing (read: addiction maximizing) algorithms. Social media wasn't nearly as bad until algorithmic engagement maximizing feeds replaced temporal or topic based feeds and user-directed search.

Two people walk past you on the street. One says "hi," and the other strips naked and smears themselves with peanut butter and starts clucking like a chicken. Which one maximizes engagement?

A politician says something sane and reasonable. Another politician mocks someone, insults someone, or says something completely asinine. Which one maximizes engagement?

This is why our president is a professional troll, many of our public intellectuals are professional trolls, and politics is becoming hyper-polarized into raging camps fixated on crazy extremes. It maximizes engagement.

The "time on site" KPI is literally destroying civilization by biasing public discourse toward trash.

I think "trash maximizes engagement" should be considered an established fact at this point. If you A/B test for engagement you will converge on a mix of trolling, tabloid sensationalism, fear porn, outrage porn, and literal porn, and that’s our public discourse.

xnx 9/13/2025||
Social media would be entirely different if there were no monetization on political content. There's a whole lot of ragebaiting/engagement-farming for views. I don't know how to filter for political content, but it's worth a shot. People are free to say whatever they want, but they don't need to get paid for it.
stevage 9/13/2025||
Strangely I never see political content on YouTube. Maybe the algorithm worked out quickly I'm simply not interested. Whereas twitter/mastodon/bluesky are awash in it, to the point of making those platforms pretty unusable for me.

I guess the difference is that YouTube content creators don't casually drop politics in because it will alienate half their audience and lose revenue. Whereas on those other platforms the people I follow aren't doing it professionally and just share whatever they feel like sharing.

0xDEAFBEAD 9/14/2025|||
Youtube is the one platform that actually tunes "the algorithm" in a responsible way.
timeon 9/13/2025|||
Interesting, I do not see politics on Mastodon, while YouTube recommends me not just random politics, but conspiracy theories about politics.

On Mastodon, those I follow do not post about politics and if they do it is hidden behind content warning.

YouTube is probably location based as I have no account there and that type of content is relatively mainstream where I live.

ants_everywhere 9/13/2025||
they get paid in political power that's why it's so ragebait driven
softwaredoug 9/14/2025||
The article mentions political polarization increased most in seniors (65+).

Social media or not, I would guess it’s largely because many retirees don’t have anything to do. They’re isolated. They want connection and purpose. While younger adults have jobs and obligations.

My retired dad lived alone. He could talk nonstop about that crazy thing Trump did, but I wasn’t following closely, and somewhat tuned my dad out to not get lost in a rabbit hole. My dad got this from cable news.

Isolation to me is the root cause at any age. People who only see the world through media (social or otherwise). It’s easy to become radicalized when you don’t have any attachments other than your political affiliations.

lattalayta 9/14/2025||
I’m finding that social media is less “social”. Fewer of my friends and family are posting and more and more businesses, ads, and “creators” are filling the gap
1vuio0pswjnm7 9/14/2025||
Person A and person B (or group B) want to communicate by using the internet

Idea: Use person C's website

This was never a good idea for A and B but turned out to be a great idea for C

C derives the benefit, C became a billionaire, but it is taking a very long time for A and C to realise they are not getting a good deal

Sadly in 2025 A and B believe there is no other way to communicate via the internet other than through C

C could disappear and the internet would live on, and A and B would indeed be able to communicate

A and B pay internet subscription fees, but generally do not pay subscription fees to C

The internet is worth something, people are willing to pay for it; C's value is questionable, few would be willing to pay for it

If not for the internet, C would not be a billionaire

If not for the internet, A and B could not communicate via C

The case for the internet is stronger than the case for C

1vuio0pswjnm7 9/14/2025||
s/A and C/A and B/
meonkeys 9/14/2025||
Yes, this. It's a symptom of late-stage capitalism.
picafrost 9/14/2025||
Designing tools is designing behavior. It shouldn't be surprising that the behavior of a society changes when the primary form of discourse shifts from communication among peers to maximizing the engagement of strangers due to the financial needs of the platform.
cramsession 9/13/2025|
Without social media, we'd be left with mainstream media, which is a very narrow set of channels that those in power can control. Despite rampant censorship on social media, it's still the best way to circumvent propaganda and give people a voice.
add-sub-mul-div 9/13/2025||
The idea of social media reducing net propaganda is a wild take.
synecdoche 9/14/2025|||
Without it, there would be no way to get information from the source. In msm all we get is the msm view. When compared to what was actually said, done or written then you have a chance to make your own opinion. You only then can compare what is in msm and what is not. And the bias is relentless. Which makes it a propaganda machine.

Of course there is garbage in social media as there is in every field. Find the source if there is one recorded. Msm rarely if ever refer to any. And no wonder. It would risk undermining their publication, which they peddle as unbiased.

cramsession 9/14/2025|||
We would have no idea what was going on in Gaza if it wasn't for social media. It really exposed how biased (which probably isn't even a strong enough word) our msm is.
sethammons 9/13/2025|||
> it's still the best way to circumvent propaganda and give people a voice.

I think it can amplify propaganda but still give people a voice, which is better than no voice I think

n1b0m 9/13/2025|||
Its still propaganda just from Russian and Chinese bots.
cramsession 9/14/2025||
The vast majority of bots are from Israel.
nicce 9/13/2025|||
Without social media, people would go out and talk face-to-face or even arrange meetings, like before social media.
cramsession 9/14/2025||
That's not media, it's communication with people you know.
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