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Posted by ingve 14 hours ago

The case against social media is stronger than you think(arachnemag.substack.com)
202 points | 168 commentspage 3
profsummergig 10 hours ago|
I used to be disappointed in myself that I didn't understand Discord well enough to use it.

Now I'm glad I never understood it well enough to use it.

stevage 10 hours ago|
Huh. I'm on a few discords. They're very easy and obvious to use, and I really enjoy them. And because they are generally well divided by channel, it's easy to avoid the bits you don't want.
793212408435807 9 hours ago||
Number 3 will shock you!

What a shame that these clickbait headlines make it to the front page.

mightyham 8 hours ago||
To me this just reads like fear mongering and shilling for the status quo political establishment. I've recently been learning a bit about Russian history and it has similarities to their conservative nobility throughout the 19th century trying through various means to suppress the spread of liberalism in the public and intelligentsia: the point being that Russia had serious social ills like serfdom and radical political ideas were absolutely warranted. Social media is destabilizing for the influence of establishment sources of information and more of the public (right and left) is finding out more accurate information about how the world works, then coming to natural conclusions about how to address various social ills. Polarization may be increasing, but people forming stronger opinions is also exactly what you would expect in the face of increased revelation about unsolved social problems. Ultimately, I'm optimistic about the long term effects of social media on politics.
api 10 hours ago||
It's more specific than social media. It's engagement maximizing (read: addiction maximizing) algorithms. Social media wasn't nearly as bad until algorithmic engagement maximizing feeds replaced temporal or topic based feeds and user-directed search.

Two people walk past you on the street. One says "hi," and the other strips naked and smears themselves with peanut butter and starts clucking like a chicken. Which one maximizes engagement?

A politician says something sane and reasonable. Another politician mocks someone, insults someone, or says something completely asinine. Which one maximizes engagement?

This is why our president is a professional troll, many of our public intellectuals are professional trolls, and politics is becoming hyper-polarized into raging camps fixated on crazy extremes. It maximizes engagement.

The "time on site" KPI is literally destroying civilization by biasing public discourse toward trash.

I think "trash maximizes engagement" should be considered an established fact at this point. If you A/B test for engagement you will converge on a mix of trolling, tabloid sensationalism, fear porn, outrage porn, and literal porn, and that’s our public discourse.

scarface_74 11 hours ago||
I really hate the narrative that social media has increased polarization knowing that my still living parents grew up in the Jim Crow south where they were literally separated from society because of the color of their skin.

The country has always been hostile to “other”. People just have a larger platform to get their message out.

linguae 11 hours ago||
As someone whose grandparents endured Jim Crow, I largely agree in the sense that social media did not create America’s divides. Many of the divides in American society are very old and are very deep, with no easy fixes.

Unfortunately algorithmic social media is one of the factors adding fuel to the fire, and I believe it’s fair to say that social media has helped increase polarization by recommending content to its viewers purely based on engagement metrics without any regard for the consequences of pushing such content. It is much easier to whip people into a frenzy this way. Additionally, echo chambers make it harder for people to be exposed to other points of view. Combine this with dismal educational outcomes for many Americans (including a lack of critical thinking skills), our two-party system that aggregates diverse political views into just two options, a first-past-the-post election system that forces people to choose “the lesser of two evils,” and growing economic pain, and these factors create conditions that are ripe for strife.

dfxm12 10 hours ago|||
Unfortunately algorithmic social media is one of the factors adding fuel to the fire

Saying social media fans the flames is like saying ignorance is bliss. Mainstream media (cable news, radio, newspapers, etc) only gives us one, largely conservative, viewpoint. If you're lucky, you'll get one carefully controlled opposing viewpoint (out of many!). As you say, our choices are usually evil and not quite as evil.

Anger is not an unreasonable reaction when you realize this. When you realize that other viewpoints exist, the mainstream media and politicians are not acting in anyone's best interest but their own, there really are other options (politically, for news, etc.). Social media is good at bringing these things to light.

There are no easy fixes to the divides you're talking about, but failing to confront them and just giving in to the status quo, or worse, continuing down our current reactionary transcript, is probably the worst way to approach them.

scarface_74 10 hours ago|||
So there wasn’t enough fuel in the fire when marauding Klansmen were hanging Black people?

It was the current President of the US that led a charge that a Black man running for President wasn’t a “real American” and was a secret Muslim trying to bring Shari law to the US and close to half of the US was willing to believe it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErjPmFulQ0

This was before social media in the northern burbs of Atlanta where I had to a house built in 2016. We didn’t have a problem during the seven years we lived there. But do you think they were “polarized” by social media in the 80s?

That’s just like police brutality didn’t start with the rise of social media. Everyone just has cameras and a platform

0xDEAFBEAD 1 hour ago|||
Race relations were better in the 2000-2010 period, according to Gallup data:

https://news.gallup.com/poll/1687/race-relations.aspx

Easy to cherry-pick stuff. You can cherry-pick Jim Crow south; I can cherry-pick Chicago in the 90s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDmAI67nBGU

I think we have to get past black-and-white thinking and see it as a matter of degree. With 340 million people in the USA, realistically, at least a few of them will always be racist. The question is how powerful and influential the racists are. That's a question which social media feeds into.

tolerance 11 hours ago|||
> The country has always been hostile to “other”. People just have a larger platform to get their message out.

And a consequence of this is that some people’s perspective of the scale of the nation’s hostilities is limited to the last 5 years or so.

gdulli 9 hours ago|||
But we made progress away from that and now we've regressed back towards it recently, aided by social media.
scarface_74 8 hours ago||
Exactly when did we make progress? In 2008 - before social media really took off how much of the population was a yelling that a Black man wasn’t a “real American” and was a “secret Muslim”?

Before then we had the “Willie Horton ads”. Not to mention that Clinton performatively oversaw the electrocution of a mentally challenged Black man to show that he was tough on crime.

https://jacobin.com/2016/11/bill-clinton-rickey-rector-death...

Yes I know that Obama was also a champion of laws like the defense of marriage act. We have always demonized other in this country. It was just hidden before.

gdulli 2 hours ago||
That black man you're referring to was elected President twice, despite his haters. Which does not mean that racism was conquered but does indicate progress since the aforementioned Jim Crow era.
scarface_74 2 hours ago||
We were talking about “polarization”. Not the fact that he was elected. Was social media to blame in 2008 for the “divisiveness”?

Right now the Supreme Court said that ICE could target people based on the color of their skin and it’s big like Obama won the hearts and minds of the states where Jim Crow was the law of the land in the 60s.

nextaccountic 10 hours ago|||
One of the factors that led to the Rwandan genocide was the broadcast of the RLTM radio station

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rwandan_genocide#Radio_station...

The radio didn't create the divide, and it wasn't the sole factor in the genocide, but it engrained in the population a sense of urgency in eliminating the Tutsi, along with a stream of what was mostly fake news to show that the other side is already commiting the atrocities against Hutus

When the genocide happened, it was fast and widespread: people would start killing their own neighbors at scale. In 100 days, a million people were killed.

The trouble with social media is that they somehow managed to shield themselves from the legal repercussions of heavily promoting content similar to what RTLM broadcast. For example, see the role of Facebook and its algorithmic feed in the genocide in Myanmar

https://systemicjustice.org/article/facebook-and-genocide-ho...

It's insane that they can get away with it.

scarface_74 10 hours ago||
And there wasn’t a history of genocide of other before then? Hitler in Germany and the mass murder in Tulsa in 1921 didn’t need social media.

History has shown people don’t need a reason to hate and commit violence against others.

macintux 9 hours ago|||
People don’t need guns to kill, either, but that doesn’t mean that they don’t make for more effective weapons.
ants_everywhere 8 hours ago|||
I think you're underestimating the role deliberate propaganda has played in mass murder.

Propaganda and ideology were a major part of the Nazi rise to power.

Marx, Engels, and Mussolini were all in the newspaper business. Jean-Paul Marat's newspaper was very influential in promoting the French reign of terror, including some claiming he's directly responsible for the September Massacres. Nationwide propaganda were major priorities day one to Lenin and after him in Soviet Russia.

Similarly with the Cambodian genocide, Great Leap Forward, Holodomor, etc.

Propaganda even played a big role in Julias Caesar's campaign against the Gauls some 2 millenia before social media.

jwilber 11 hours ago||
The article mentions this. It tries to argue the significance of that platform.
hn_throw_250910 10 hours ago||
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effnorwood 11 hours ago||
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PicassoCTs 8 hours ago||
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johnea 11 hours ago|
Man, blah, blah, blah...

That article needs to have about 80% of the words cut out of it.

When the author straight up tells you: I'm posting this in an attempt to increase my subscribership, you know you're in for some blathering.

In spite of that, personally I think algorithmic feeds have had a terrible effect on many people.

I've never participated, and never will...

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