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Posted by marbartolome 10/27/2025

What happened to running what you wanted on your own machine?(hackaday.com)
433 points | 296 commentspage 2
isolay 10/28/2025|
> [Apple] promised apps with no viruses and no risks; a place where everything was curated and safe.

Apart from the viruses, nothing of the above is true any more. Apple doesn't care if you're getting screwed over by an app, and neither does Google. If they can increase their profits by taking away our freedom and/or control over "our" devices, then it WILL happen, as sure as death and taxes.

mrbluecoat 10/27/2025||
Executive Summary: run Linux
matheusmoreira 10/27/2025||
Won't matter. Remote hardware attestation means they will know you're trying to bypass their control. You'll be denied service at every turn. Can't even log into your bank account.
candiddevmike 10/27/2025|||
IMO, I don't see how remote hardware attestation avoids being spoofed. Yes, TPM is involved, but the end of the day, it's an API request/response. There are so many ways the request could be spoofed, and the attestation likely requires coordination with hardware vendors that have proven to be Highly Secure TM with the history of secure boot leaks.
matheusmoreira 10/27/2025|||
> I don't see how remote hardware attestation avoids being spoofed

Hardware cryptoprocessor. Keys are held in a tamper resistant secure element. You're not gonna get at those keys without pouring some serious resources into the task.

The keys are owned by the corporation and used to establish a root of trust from boot. If you change anything at all to suit your interests, verification fails, your machine is identified as "tampered with" and designated as untrusted.

iamnothere 10/27/2025||
History tells us there will always be a “low cost” vendor with exploitable hardware, or if production becomes more tightly controlled, inevitable cost cutting and declining standards will provide a way in. Not that we shouldn’t oppose locked down hardware, but locking things down creates pressure and motivation for the people who like things to be unlocked.
donmcronald 10/27/2025|||
Your untampered device will be enrolled with a verified ID provider and they’ll be part of the attestation. The tamper resistance hardware benefits from decades of hacking. Plus you’re not talking about things like compromising a single long lived key or similar like you could with physical media or players.

We’ll probably get to the point where you need a verified id to buy a phone that does attestation. Tamper with it and go to jail. Who’s going to hack that?

iamnothere 10/27/2025||
Even if things get that locked down, I suspect that leaked attestation keys and fake/stolen ID verification will always be a problem. There’s a lot of money to be made in this, and someone will inevitably decide not to leave that money on the table, legality be damned. This risk only goes up with manufacturing that crosses borders, and despite the push to renationalize production, it’s going to be a long time before that is feasible at a mass scale.

A small, hardly exclusive list of things we have been unable to protect through technology:

- DVD/Blu Ray/HDMI copy protection

- Windows product registration

- Device jailbreaking (manufacturers are constantly running to keep ahead of this but old versions are frequently unlocked even with iOS)

- Classified diplomatic documents

- Classified details of warfighting equipment

- Identities of federal employees (and even covert agents)

- Nuclear secrets

Technical measures aren’t always the weak point—bribery works just as well. As the US tech stack continues to decouple from China, they will also have the motivation to break our systems.

pseudalopex 10/27/2025||
There is more money to be made selling exploits to criminals or states than selling false attestation or jailbreak to the public.

iOS jailbreak enthusiasts say it wasn't practical since years.

Some state secrets leaked. Many did not.

marcosdumay 10/27/2025||||
Everything seems directed into making that "low cost vendor" illegal and consolidating the market into a handful of players.

And yeah, it's a politics problem, not an economic one. If corporations could simply push Trusted Computing without a corrupt police (and military) backing them, we would be there since the 90s already.

matheusmoreira 10/27/2025||
It's already been made illegal via DMCA.

https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2019/06/felony-contempt-busine...

matheusmoreira 10/27/2025||||
I hope you're right. Truly.
coldpie 10/27/2025||||
> I don't see how remote hardware attestation avoids being spoofed

I don't disagree, but is that really a game you want to be playing with your government and your bank?

lbschenkel 10/28/2025|||
Check how Play Integrity works today (DEVICE and STRONG integrities) and how it uses a non-extractable hardware key fused into the chip or security processor. Or read the GrapheneOS attestation guide and their example code. It's un-spoofable hardware attestation.

The fact that you can make it pass in some cases using Magisk and so on is because it's spoofing an older device (launched before Android 8) without hardware-bound keys and Google is deliberately allowing that in order not to blacklist the genuine users.

However, once Google decides that the collateral damage is tolerable and those devices should no longer pass Play Integrity, then it's game over. You can't spoof any newer stuff, as you can't produce the desired signature -- only the hardware can do it and the hardware won't do it.

The only way would be if the manufacturer screwed up and it's possible to run unsigned code (or signed by a different key) and maintain a pristine bootloader, or if the hardware key leaks somehow. In either case, the key is per device so Google is always free to blacklist that device if it really wants to. (Verification of the signatures is always done off-device, through Google's servers.)

parliament32 10/27/2025||||
Given my bank hasn't even moved on from optional SMS-based MFA yet, I expect this to start becoming a problem in maybe half a century.
lotsofpulp 10/27/2025|||
If you have the right to run what you want on your machine, then they do too.

So then the problem gets moved up to why are you (or group of you) not powerful enough to negotiate being able to run what you want and either not need “them” or be important enough that “they” need you.

And the answer will come down to the fact that 90% of people don’t care about running whatever they want on their machine, and they want the cheapest, quickest, easiest solution.

matheusmoreira 10/27/2025||
> So then the problem gets moved up to why are you (or group of you) not powerful enough to negotiate being able to run what you want and either not need “them” or be important enough that “they” need you.

How tiresome.

You're right, we gotta become more powerful. Via radicalization. They seek to marginalize us. To turn us into second class citizens. To destroy free computing as we know it, destroy everything the word hacker ever stood for. If you're on this site and this doesn't radicalize you, then I don't know what to say to you.

Gotta start lobbying governments to make it a literal crime for them to discriminate against us in this manner. Just like racism.

Klonoar 10/29/2025||
> if you’re on this site

My brother in <deity of your choice>, you are not on a Hacker site. This site exists as the community arm of one of the most capitalistic venture capital ecosystems on the planet.

When are you all going to stop expecting HN to be what it’s not?

rkomorn 10/29/2025||
> My brother in <deity of your choice>

Off topic but how does this work for non-believers?

"My brother out of" ?

Klonoar 10/30/2025||
I mean, it's your choice. I'm not a believer myself, so I just sub... nothing, lol
egorfine 10/27/2025||
Until EU forbids you to like they plan in 2027.
3form 10/29/2025||
Please elaborate?
egorfine 10/29/2025||
EU law 2014/53/EU imposes new cybersecurity requirements on device manufacturers like Samsung. They must ensure that the devices they sell in Europe block the installation of unauthorized software and only run signed and approved ROMs.
7e 10/27/2025||
Real world parallels to this abound. You cannot build whatever house you want on your own property, for example; it must meet strict building codes and be verifiably structurally sound. What ever happened to building what you wanted on your own land?
maigret 10/27/2025||
Because there are liabilities issues for others. What if your structure falls down on visitors? You cant repair some heath damage or death. Since this kind of problems is easily prevented by professional review, legal constraints make lots of sense.
bombcar 10/27/2025|||
That is not universally true; even today in some states there are areas (and perhaps even entire states) where building codes do not apply, sometimes even to the main structure. Often you only need to comply over a certain size, for human habitation, or to connect to utilities.

The best argument “for” building codes is the same as “for” secure platforms; that people should be able to expect a certain level of competence when buying a structure or phone.

But if you want to do it yourself, there should be a path.

pjmlp 10/27/2025||
Regulations are at least as old as Code of Hammurabi, naturally they have become less drastic throughout the centuries.
Bender 10/27/2025||
The codes exist but I think what they are saying is that in some places codes are not enforced or even checked. I live in somewhat of a "middle ground" where codes do exist and electrical is checked on a brand new build. They will also nag about septic inspections but will never actually get off their butts and do the inspection. Many such places do exist but they are usually places I would never want to reside. I know of places that I can literally build anything and never once be nagged by inspectors or state/county governments. They are happy enough and lazy enough to receive the property tax revenue.

I have mixed feelings about unenforced regulations. Having unenforced regulations opens up the possibility of targeted abuse of any individuals that are not a cultural fit in the eyes of the government offices and being very relaxed regarding anyone that fits in. This also drives the need for very detailed and expensive inspections prior to purchasing a home and that is a loaded topic all by itself.

bombcar 10/27/2025||
There are places that don't even have the regulations - or if they do, the number of explicit exemptions is so large as to easily drive an entire house through them.
Bender 10/28/2025||
Agreed. I should have clarified that is what I meant by there are places I can build literally anything. Of all of the places I found to be the case I would not want to reside in any of them. If one digs deeper they may find the local government to have corruption issues and county/state services are often not reliable or useful. Crime is usually high in such areas. There are probably a few hidden gems but it was not worth it to me to find them.
The_President 10/27/2025||
[dead]
fghorow 10/27/2025||
The one word answer to this?

Linux.

dehrmann 10/27/2025||
It got this way because 99% of people are happy running what's in the app store, and the security protections are more valuable than being able to run arbitrary code.

Linux as an answer doesn't address the needs of 99% of people, so 98% will never adopt it. It's better to meet people where they're at and push for sideloading and alternative app stores.

lou1306 10/27/2025|||
The article is largely about phones, where the barrier to install a truly open Linux system are high and getting higher.
jeroenhd 10/27/2025|||
There are plenty of smartphone companies locking down their bootloaders, but there are others that will let you unlock your bootloader by just running the basic command.

A much bigger problem for running Linux on phones is that standard Linux runs like crap on phones. It doesn't have the mainline driver support amd64 computers have, and the battery life optimizations that make Android usable need to be reimplemented on top of Linux to get a day's worth of use out of your phone. Unfortunately, most Linux applications are written for desktops where they expect the CPU to be running all the time, the WiFi to be accessible whenever they want, and for sleep/suspend to be extremely incidental rather than every two minutes.

netdevphoenix 10/27/2025||
Have an optimised web browser for the OS and you don't really have to worry about 3rd party software performance any more or not that much
fsflover 10/27/2025|||
I do run GNU/Linux on my smartphone. No Android or iOS.
stronglikedan 10/27/2025|||
Sure, until the software that you need to participate in modern society no longer supports Linux.
jwrallie 10/27/2025|||
As long as common PCs can boot an iso we should be good to go.
dns_snek 10/27/2025||
Only as long as Google doesn't force Web Environment Integrity through. Running a custom OS won't help if important websites refuse to load unless they're running in an approved browser with a set of approved extensions, on an approved OS, on top of approved hardware.
Seattle3503 10/27/2025||
I've been beating the drum that we need mobile drivers licenses and pairwise pseudonyms. It is a path to beating spam and bots in a way that doesn't hand control over to private entities.

Some folks don't like digital identity controlled by government, but it seems like the alternative is digital identity controlled by oligopoly.

donmcronald 10/27/2025|||
The three word rebuttal?

Banking on GrapheneOS

velocity3230 10/28/2025||
Works just fine for me. Perhaps consider moving to a bank that's more aware of alternates than just the existing duopoly.
welferkj 10/27/2025||
[flagged]
cbdevidal 10/27/2025||
Will LineageOS and other similar ROMs have this limitation as well, or will it be baked into the hardware?
josephcsible 10/27/2025||
No, but when remote attestation reveals that you're running an OS that's not blessed by Google, the megacorps will make their apps all refuse to run on your phone. A few already do so today, e.g., the McDonald's app. In practice, I expect a situation where we have two phones: one to run Big Tech's apps, and one to run indie apps.
netdevphoenix 10/27/2025||
> a situation where we have two phones: one to run Big Tech's apps, and one to run indie apps.

This in combination with using webapps where possible

netdevphoenix 10/27/2025|||
Roms face a different problem: bootloader locking. But the more Android changes drastically, the harder it is to integrate the AOSP changes into the different open projects
Semaphor 10/27/2025||
> Roms face a different problem: bootloader locking.

Is that a problem these days? It was over a decade ago that I last needed to jailbreak a phone, nowadays it’s just "I’d like to unlock" "Ok".

klardotsh 10/27/2025|||
That’s possible on very few phones these days. Only a handful of OEMs still ship phones that can be bootloader unlocked at all (at least in the US), and even several of THOSE require phoning home to the OEM to get an IMEI-dependent unlock key to pass to fastboot.

Source: 7 years of running deGoogled Android phones and 11 years of running ROM’d Android phones before recently moving to iOS and giving up.

Semaphor 10/29/2025|||
Just found this [0] in another thread. Some few allow no unlocks, most allow them under certain circumstances. Some few without a waiting period or additional sacrifices.

So not as great as I thought, but also not as bad as you made it seem ;)

[0]: https://github.com/zenfyrdev/bootloader-unlock-wall-of-shame...

sifar 10/27/2025||||
Curious, have run GrapheneOS on pixels ? They don't have this issue, though it might change now.
netdevphoenix 10/27/2025|||
Given that Google itself is the manufacturer of Pixel devices, I wouldn't hold my breath on them allowing you to keep this ability forever
klardotsh 10/27/2025|||
Two of my deGoogled Android phones were Pixels (4a and 7a) and one was a Nexus (6p). I know them well, though I never ran Graphene on them.

Pretty sure I read Google was no longer going to publish device tree sources for Pixel phones, which will make ROM development for them significantly harder, whether or not the bootloader is open.

Semaphor 10/27/2025|||
Not in the US, so might be one of those pesky regulations we have over here.
netdevphoenix 10/27/2025|||
It is actually getting worse over time imo. In the days of Froyo, you could run Cyanogen easy without needing keys from anyone. Now you got to go to your manufacturer's website to get the key needed to unlock it. Even after you bought the device, you are reliant on the goodwill of the manufacturer to get the unlocking key.
immibis 10/27/2025||
They will not, but the hardware will (as it already does) do its best to stop you from installing LineageOS and other similar ROMs.
mnmalst 10/27/2025||
In my opinion, the biggest problem that comes with this, is the fact that google play independent apps will become A LOT less popular. To a point where alternative roms are even less interesting to people which in return makes developing apps for them even less interesting.
immibis 10/27/2025||
Some people even sideload on iOS, which doesn't allow sideloading. They do this by getting an apple developer account, installing Xcode, compiling the apps themselves and refreshing them on their phones every week. And this seems about as popular as Android sideloading where you just download an app and install it...
fsf4alltemp 10/27/2025||
This idea that protecting users is worth the cost of giving up your ownership rights is fallacious.

Protecting 1 million grannies is an entirely different risk class than the security implications of stopping everyone from using their devices as they see fit.

Protecting 1 million grannies means everyone loses ability to install apps that:

  -allow encrypted chat
  -allow use of privacy respecting software
  -download art/games/entertainment that is deemed inappropriate to unelected parties
  -use software to organize protests and track agents of hostile governments
  -download software that opposes monopolistic holds of controlling parties
Using Linux is also not a real choice. To access my bank and health services in my country, I require a mobile device that is remote attested by either Apple or Google which are American countries. Hell, it's becoming closer to reality that playing online video games requires remote attestation either to "prevent" cheating or for age verification.

Thus the risk widens to the sovereign control a nation has over its own services. A US president could attempt to force Google and Apple to shutoff citizen access of banks and health services of an entire nation. Merely the threat could give them leverage in any sort of negotiations they might be in. For some nations in the future, the controlling nation may be China I imagine.

I think the real regulatory solution here is to break up monopoly practices. While the EU's DMA is all well and good in some ways, the EU is also pushing Chat Control... In a more fragmented market it becomes impossible for a bank or health service to mandate specific devices for access (they lose potential customers) so you could theoretically move to a device that doesn't do draconian style remote attestation that breaks if you go off the ranch. We need more surgically precise regulatory tools than sweeping legislation that would keep using alternatives like Linux or FreeBSD or whatever actually viable. It also makes it much harder for that same legislative body to enforce insane ideas like Chat Control.

The answer is not protect users from themselves. The answer is more freedom, with a legal framework that helps all users have more choices while helping victims acquire restitution.

lejalv 10/27/2025||
> A US president could attempt to force Google and Apple to shutoff citizen access of banks and health services of an entire nation. Merely the threat could give them leverage in any sort of negotiations they might be in

This. We can’t anymore say to ourselves “but surely a US president would never do that”?

Reference: recent tirades at Canada, Spain, Colombia, Ukraine, ...

vetrom 10/27/2025||
We already have the UK intimating they can exercise parliamentary supremacy over American citizens, so we already have this today. (Reference: https://prestonbyrne.com/2025/10/16/the-ofcom-files/)

Without limitations on authority and control, I worry more that the world will devolve into a multilateral legal hellscape, even moreso than exists today. Given how much is dependent on software, you are going to have the governments of pretty much any country with multinational exposure trying this in the next 10 years if recent UK and EU developments are any indicator.

leothecool 10/27/2025|||
When they say users need to be protected they don't mean the people. They mean the database record.
fsf4alltemp 10/27/2025||
Haha, it's a bit sad when the record's get compromised it's still the people's problem. :p https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CS9ptA3Ya9E
jolmg 10/27/2025||
> To access [...] health services in my country, I require a mobile device that is remote attested by either Apple or Google

I knew of banks, but how is it that health services need remote attested mobile devices? Do clinics not support setting appointments through calls anymore, or what?

fsf4alltemp 10/27/2025|||
In my country, the same verification service is used to access banks, health services (private and public), taxes, and even verify online retail purchases. This verification app on Android requires Play Integrity on first time activation so fresh installs of something like GrapheneOS will not let you use the app. It's still currently possible to use a hardware token alternative to the app. It is only getting less convenient and possible to opt out of the digital verification systems even if there's technically still workarounds. In the past, even when such verification systems existed, they were less user constricting (no requirements on remote attestation for example).

I believe if we look at the past compared to now, and then extrapolate towards the future, without proper action, we will keep slipping down the slope.

ryandrake 10/27/2025||
I see all of these "in my country, we need a phone to do X" posts, and while I believe them, I feel like they always leave out key information. I'd also like to know: What actually happens when the customer does not have a phone? Do you just never get healthcare? Do you just never bank? Surely there are (perhaps inconvenient) alternatives that people without phones can use. The national government doesn't just let its citizens slide into some healthcare-less, unbanked purgatory simply for not having a phone. What is the real, full picture?

As someone in the USA, I could toss my phone in the dumpster forever and still live my life pretty much as I live it today. I might have to make a few minor sacrifices, but I'm grateful we still have that choice here.

gvurrdon 10/27/2025|||
Recently, I was referred by my family physician to a healthcare provider. That provider required a mobile phone number for registration. I emailed them to complain about this and their reply was that if I did not have a mobile I should contact the referring medical practice to find an alternative means of treatment. I did, and their response was that I should take it up with the provider. But this is, of course, just one anecdote. I would also be interested in seeing more information.
jolmg 10/27/2025||||
> The national government doesn't just let its citizens slide into some healthcare-less, unbanked purgatory simply for not having a phone.

Unfortunately, I think that depends on whether the portion of citizens without a phone is significant. People need to care for businesses/government to care.

See also countries where they struggle to use cash. What happens when a customer does not have a bank account?

lbschenkel 10/28/2025||||
So what actually happens in Sweden: there are two officially sanctioned authentication apps: BankID (originally developed by banks) and Freja. Both only run on a mobile phone.

For government services, both will work. But you must use some of them, otherwise no government for you. You can still do some things by paper, but those are getting rarer and rarer nowadays. The general assumption is that everything is done online. Some government services can't be done by paper or physical visit, not without involving this authentication at some point.

For most of everything else, only BankID (the oldest of the two and the most deployed by far). Especially for banking, only this works. Even if you call the bank and try to sort out via phone, they will refuse service until you can prove that you are you by authenticating via BankID.

But Sweden is mostly cashless nowadays (even some bank branches are refusing to deal with cash). For example, you can't take a bus or train and pay with cash. You have to use a vending machine that only exists on train stations, or depending on which kind of transport and the region you live you might be able to do a contactless payment, or you must use the app (the default choice that 99% use). If you use the app, to pay you need to use a "card not present" flow, or Swish (Sweden's mobile payment system), and to complete either you must use BankID. You can't use your card or do any payment without BankID (if the card is not present).

Even if you do use your card, if it gets denied for any reason, for you to sort out the issue you'll need the mobile phone and BankID.

If you go out with friends to a restaurant, most restaurants don't accept cash. If the restaurant doesn't accept charging each one individually then someone needs to pay for the group, and they will expect you to pay them via Swish which requires BankID. People won't take cash either.

As you can see, it's not actually trivial here to live as part of society without a working mobile phone. If you're outside, you better have 100% faith on your card, and/or be prepared that you might need to walk back home as you can't do much now, might not even be able to buy transportation.

Some smaller shops/kiosks only take Swish: no cash, no card. That requires a phone plus BankID.

If (or better said: when) BankID starts requiring the device to pass Play Integrity, then not only you must be carrying the device at all times, but it must be a blessed device from Google or Apple.

In Denmark the situation is very similar, and in their case their app (which is called MitID) already mandates that the device has to pass Play Integrity.

ryandrake 10/28/2025||
Wow, thanks for the actual response. Absolutely wild. I'm pretty speechless to be honest. How does a hellscape like this become normalized?
lbschenkel 10/30/2025||
People in general absolutely love this, and are proud that their country is so "modern".

I meant: it is convenient. No doubt. I do use all this because it is convenient. When it works, it is great. The dumb part is to not have a backup plan.

All these things were done for a single reason: cost cutting. They cost less, and the "old-fashioned" flow that could work as a backup no longer makes financial sense so it is retired.

But then again, here we are. Here and now, without a phone, without agreeing with a relationship with a foreign entity and their one-sided T&C, you won't even be able to get service from your own government. And you need to maintain your good standing with that foreign company in perpetuity, because if they ban you as a person then good luck — your are going to be cut off from your own government, your own bank.

nemomarx 10/27/2025|||
it's usually to see the results of your lab work, message doctors about refills, etc. You'd probably be able to get some of that mailed instead at the cost of time certainly.
trentnix 10/27/2025||
The rot is so much deeper than just running what you want on your own machine. And how we got here is easy to explain. There was once money it letting you run what you want on your machine. Now there's money in not letting you run what you want on your machine. And so, that's what we get.

There exists no path where a publicly traded company doesn't eventually view its customers as subjects. Every business school on the planet is teaching their students strategies and tactics that squeeze their customers in pursuit of maximizing revenue. And those strategies and tactics are often at the expense of creativity, ethics, and community. Just last week people's bed didn't work because the company that makes them architected things such that they have absolute control.

Only a reasonably altruistic private company might buck the trend. But the publicly traded companies are allowed, by the government(s), to use their largesse in a predatory fashion to prevent competition. They bundle and bleed and leverage every step of the way. They not only contribute to the politicians that do their bidding, they are frequently asked to write the laws and regulations they're expected to follow. Magically, it has the effect of increasing the costs of their competition to enter the markets they dominate. And so, the odds of an altruistic private company emerging from that muck is low.

Worse still, many of the elected officials (and bureaucrats) actively own stock in the very companies they are responsible for regulating. Widespread corruption and perversion of the market is the inevitable result.

I'm trying to do a better job and redirect my money to the places that better reflect my values. It's not even a drop in the bucket, but it's a lever where I feel like I have a measure of control.

M95D 10/28/2025||
It all happens because of people's greed.

The companies that make stuff could easily be beaten in the market by a non-profit competitor. With no worries about stock market prices and dividends, a non-profit could direct all it's money into making better products.

But the problems are that 1) nobody wants to work for a non-profit and 2) greed redirects the money away from better products into the founder's (or top management's) pockets. Firefox is an example.

Rury 10/28/2025||
> people's bed didn't work because the company that makes them architected things such that they have absolute control.

Curious, but what bed/company do you speak of?

fragmede 10/28/2025||
https://www.eightsleep.com/
linuxhansl 10/27/2025||
Please complain here: https://developer.android.com/developer-verification/guides/... (there's a link at the end).

Probably won't help, but it is something.

throw7 10/27/2025||
People are perfectly happy with a walled garden. The question one should always be asking is what is the difference between that and a panopticon? What happens to me if I start seeing faded flowers and no-entry signs? Can I escape? With my stuff or friends or family?
neilv 10/27/2025|
Something to keep in mind, when sharing code you've written... to promote the Mac or Windows platform you use, and putting it on GitHub to endorse that, and starting a Discord for community around it.
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