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Posted by 1659447091 3 days ago

The last European train that travels by sea(www.bbc.com)
174 points | 163 commentspage 2
discoinverno 2 days ago|
My family is from Sicily, and I remember taking this train every year when I was a kid. After several years, I took it again last summer and was bufflled at how inefficient the whole ordeal was... Basically you have to wait for the train wagons to be detached and reassembled on the other side, you easily waste a couple hours.

Now, I don't really mind this, it's a bit of a tradition if you want, but I asked a relative of mine who used to work for the Italian national train company, and he told me that this train works like this cause in the past all the Sicilian migrants would travel with a lot of luggage, and it would be very impractical for them to transfer all of that twice. Nowadays this is not really the case anymore.

macintux 3 days ago||
Discussions (with more than 2 comments) of the planned bridge:

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44854834

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=44817863

- https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43427008

kibwen 3 days ago||
> In August, the Italian government revived long-standing plans to build a vast €13.5bn (£11.7bn) suspension bridge over the strait – one of the world's most ambitious engineering projects.

What makes it particularly ambitious? The strait of Messina is two miles across, and I don't think that even cracks the top 100 of the world's longest bridges.

joakleaf 3 days ago||
It will be by far the longest span of a suspension bridge at 3300 meter.

The current longest is in Turkey at 2023 meter.

Each of the pylons of the Messina Bridge will be around 400 meters tall. Which is taller than the Empire State Building.

The strait is too deep, with too much current and seismic activity to place the pylons in the water. So they have to be on the shore, as I understand it.

agos 3 days ago|||
it's geologically and seismically challenging. The project is a single span for 3300 meters, which would make it one of the longest in the world of the kind.

The strong presence of organized crime in the area also makes a lot of people uneasy about the whole deal, but that's not a technical issue.

antonvs 2 days ago|||
Shortest summary I could quickly find:

> "...building a suspension bridge of this scale poses significant engineering challenges. The Strait of Messina is known for strong winds, seismic activity, and deep waters, all of which complicate construction and long-term stability. Engineers will need to ensure the structure can withstand earthquakes, which aren't unheard of in the region, while addressing corrosion from the salty marine environment."

-- https://www.iflscience.com/worlds-longest-suspension-bridge-...

I remember reading an article, posted here on HN, that went into much more depth about why this was all unusually challenging, but I haven't found it again.

arethuza 3 days ago|||
If you sort the list on Wikipedia by "main span length" rather than overall bridge length then the longest span is just over 2km?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_longest_bridges

myself248 3 days ago||
Apples to appleseeds. The main span doesn't cross the entire gap. The main span is just the middle part, typically a small fraction of the overall length between endpoints or shorelines, however those are defined.
rob74 3 days ago|||
Well, in this case, the main span will cross the entire gap (or at least it's planned to do it). This BBC article has a rendering which is higher resolution than the one in the Wikipedia article: https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/c80d74v0e4lo
arethuza 3 days ago||||
The current design for the Strait of Messina bridge has a main span of 3.3km - which is quite a bit more than the current longest span?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Messina_Bridge

IAmBroom 3 days ago|||
Nice adaptation of the metaphor. Golf clap.
comrade1234 3 days ago|||
I don't really know but looking at a depth map at the narrowest part it's pretty deep at 200+ meters. At another section where it's wider it's about 100m. Not sure where they're planning to build it.
easyThrowaway 3 days ago||
A tunnel would be massively easier to build, but there's strong political hubris and greed in keeping the original single-span bridge project from the early '60s.
fph 2 days ago||
The strait is unusually deep, 250 m. That seems quite a slope.
bobthepanda 2 days ago||
Apparently we already have underwater tunnels 292 meters below sea level https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ryfylke_Tunnel#:~:text=The%20R...
fph 1 day ago||
It's also a question of length though. If you go down 292 m and then back up over 14.4 km, that is a 4% slope on average. But to go down 250 m and then back up over 3.3 km, it requires a 15% average slope.
bobthepanda 8 hours ago||
I mean both Sicily and mainland Italy have more than 7km of land on either side to ascend into.
kaffekaka 3 days ago||
At least in the past trains went by ferry also between Helsingborg (Sweden) and Helsingör (Denmark). Could not find if they have been stopped. So the Italian train might be not be there only one in Europe.
drsim 3 days ago|
They’re no more.
globular-toast 3 days ago||
Since when? What have they been replaced with?

I went on the train between Hamburg and Copenhagen around 2007. Crossed on a ferry between Puttgarden (Germany) and Rødby (Denmark). Looks like this was discontinued in 2019 but I'm not sure what replaces the Hamburg-Copenhagen link. I'm glad I did it, it was definitely a strange experience to disembark the train on to a ferry and go and stand on the deck as it crossed.

tuukkah 3 days ago|||
> Since when? What have they been replaced with?

The Helsingborg-Helsingør train ferry was replaced (car ferries remain) by railway on the Öresund Bridge (from the 2011 TV series The Bridge) between the big cities Malmö, Sweden and Copenhagen, Denmark in 2000. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%98resund_Bridge

The Puttgarden-Rødby train ferry was replaced by a new longer but faster railway route via the Great Belt Bridge and Flensburg until the Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link is ready. https://www.seat61.com/trains-and-routes/hamburg-to-copenhag...

jamesblonde 3 days ago|||
I went on this train as well back in the late 1990s. It was a surreal experience that you get off the train on a ferry!
rwmj 3 days ago||
On a not totally unrelated topic, this gem in Aomori Japan, well off the beaten track, is amazing. It's the last train-carrying ship that used to sail between Honshu and Hokkaido (a particularly dangerous stretch of sea), before they built the Seikan Tunnel for trains.

https://en.japantravel.com/aomori/memorial-ship-hakkoda-maru...

lisper 2 days ago||
This is cool, but a little crazy. Why put the whole train on the ferry instead of just offloading the passengers and putting them on the ferry?
burkaman 2 days ago|
That would be much worse for passengers who can normally just sleep through the whole thing, it would take much longer to do the transfer, you'd need a larger and more complex ferry with bathrooms, seating, luggage storage, and more staff to deal with the guests, you'd need to deal with scheduling issues (what if you get to the other side and the train isn't there yet?).

I have taken this train and it would have been a nightmare to wake up everyone at like 3am, get them and all their stuff out and onto the ferry, and then do it all in reverse on the other side. It would add at least an hour to the trip if not more.

lisper 2 days ago|||
> you'd need a larger and more complex ferry

Don't those already exist? I don't know, but I assume that regular passenger ferries operate on this route, no?

> it would have been a nightmare to wake up everyone at like 3am

I presume that if one were offloading passengers onto an existing ferry one would not schedule the train to arrive during normal ferry operating hours rather than 3AM.

I think the right answer here is that Sicily is bigger than I thought, about 100 miles across, and so the onward travel time can be significant, and so if you're going to offer a night train whose final destination is (say) Marsala then putting the train on a ferry in the middle of the night makes sense.

globular-toast 2 days ago|||
When I took the Germany to Denmark crossing I'm almost certain you weren't allowed to stay on the train. I certainly didn't anyway. But, yes, it still saves a lot of time compared to walking between train and ferry twice.
achairapart 3 days ago||
If your destination is Messina or even Catania, you can can save some time leaving the train in Villa San Giovanni (last stop before the train will be loaded into the ferry) and, literally, jump on the first ferry that is starting, so you save all the time needed to load and unload the train.

No one will ask you for a ticket (no one will ask for anything, actually). Or at the least it was like this some twenty years ago when I did it.

easyThrowaway 3 days ago|
...

This is also a great way to randomly arrive in Siracusa wondering how did you end up there, in some sort of re-enactment of the last Indiana Jones movie.

achairapart 3 days ago||
Well, I guess I was lucky! More seriously: I just followed a local that suggested this, and he knew the right way but from what I remember, it wasn't that hard to catch the right ferry. And, honestly, after so many hours of train, I was happy to physically move around and not wait another 40+ minutes.
KurSix 3 days ago||
It's easy to frame the bridge as "progress," but it risks bulldozing over the kind of slow, sensory-rich travel that people are increasingly craving again
guerrilla 2 days ago||
Oh that's so lame. I liked the one in Denmark. I always imagined it was still there and I could go again some day. Sad.
INTPenis 3 days ago|
Why don't they just maintain a separate train on the island?
lmm 2 days ago|
You'd have to troop everyone on and off (potentially with quite a lot of luggage) in the middle of the night.
INTPenis 2 days ago||
Yeah I know, that's what they do literally everywhere else in the world. You take the train to a place, and then you book a ferry, and then you take another train.

Only these italians had the genius idea to keep going with the train.

lmm 2 days ago||
On the contrary, train ferries used to be commonplace - for decades they were a great solution to the problem when you need to cross a relatively small stretch of water as part of a long, mostly overland journey. They've gradually faded out as we've gotten better at building longer and longer bridges and tunnels, but that doesn't mean they weren't a good approach in places where we hadn't managed to build a bridge or tunnel yet.
INTPenis 2 days ago||
Passenger trains used to be ferried across the baltic sea when I was a kid, in fact they still ferry cargo trains over to Poland.

I think it's more about the state of the infrastructure, and the scope of the railway carrier, at least in this case with Sicily.

For example the railway ferries between Sweden and Denmark ended long before the bridge was built, in the 80s.

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