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Posted by zerosizedweasle 2 days ago

Amazon targets as many as 30k corporate job cuts, sources say(www.reuters.com)
180 points | 121 comments
toomuchtodo 2 days ago|
https://archive.today/rYbTA
jauntywundrkind 2 days ago||
There's a lot of reflecting & gesticulating we can do about these companies, as they downsize & try to de-leverage the world's labor.

But the reciprocal side is also worth soulsearching some into too. It feels like such the crisis of our time that we don't have good things for people to do, respectable enough efforts, that so much is ensnared and tangled up in such huge enterprise running along at its own pace. I crave a government that tries to encourage new players, new enterprises, that outright lopsidedly favors those trying to get things started.

Other systematic drivers here also filter out so many would be entrepreneurs and business owners. Cost of essential food, shelter, transportation, health care needs has become incredibly daunting to many, and greatly challenges the ability for new things to get started.

Also the unchecked acquisitions spree of the world brings up all the opportunity in such uncomeptitive and fragile large companies. If we allowed small medium size companies to acquire each other, but kept more controls on bigger companies, we wouldn't be facing such wild shocks from what a couple big players do on the world.

paxys 2 days ago||
Three months from now - Amazon hiring 50k new corporate workers.

Constant churn is simply the new big tech strategy to keep employees on their toes. Plus it lets them wipe away future RSU comp that was granted to employees when stock prices were way lower.

al_borland 1 day ago||
Looking at the people around me, people don’t do very good work when they are constantly on their toes. A lot of time is wasted on the rumor mill about the next round of layoffs, people are hesitant to invest in big (needed) changes and opt to just keep the lights on, and technical decisions are often colored by what will still work after person X if laid off (if they ever get laid off) vs picking the best option in front of them. The churn also continually re-opens process gaps, repeats the same projects over and over on a new stack, and other hamster wheel type activity that do nothing to move the business forward. It simply keeps people busy and frustrated while the leadership churn is used to pad their resumes with fancy sounding projects that never actually get completed, but it’s enough for them to leverage it into a new job with a big title.
butler533 1 day ago|||
Meanwhile, 30k Amazon-minded individuals are unleashed on to other tech companies to evangelize Amazon products and services. The design of it all is really apparent.
seanmcdirmid 1 day ago|||
Ex-Amazonians aren't the best boosters of Amazon. What really happens is that everyone at other big-corps start complaining about new people managers and product/project managers coming in with a culture that is a bit more toxic than normal.
al_borland 1 day ago||||
Is this how it plays out, or does it backfire with the former employees being bitter about the layoff and not wanting to be free evangelists for the company didn’t show them any loyalty.
brazukadev 1 day ago||
They might be bitter but evangelize Amazon products are their most marketable skills.
motorest 1 day ago|||
> They might be bitter but evangelize Amazon products are their most marketable skills.

I think you are talking out of ignorance and spite. Most of the services used by Amazon employees are internal services that may or may not be on par with the state of the art. Apparently a big chunk of Amazon doesn't even use AWS at all, and instead use proto-cloud computer services that are a throwback from the 90s take on cloud computing.

al_borland 1 day ago|||
> Apparently a big chunk of Amazon doesn't even use AWS at all, and instead use proto-cloud computer services that are a throwback from the 90s take on cloud computing.

Is there more information on this somewhere. I had leadership telling me and a few others that we needed to replicate something on-par with AWS for internal use (with about 10 devs and less than a year timeline). I thought this sounded crazy, and it would be interesting if Amazon themselves didn’t even have what was being asked of us.

motorest 1 day ago|||
> Is there more information on this somewhere.

Yes, everywhere. You just need to look for it. See the following link, which has references to Apollo and MAWS.

https://blog.pragmaticengineer.com/amazon-notable-systems/

> I thought this sounded crazy, and it would be interesting if Amazon themselves didn’t even have what was being asked of us.

Amazon has multiple incantations of this. As legend would have it, AWS was an offshoot of Amazon's internal cloud infrastructure designed to monetize it to amortize their investment on bare metal infrastructure. They partitioned their networks for security reasons and for a few years their infrastructure evolved independently. Then AWS was a huge success and took a life of its own. Only relatively recently did Amazon started to push to drop their internal infrastructure to put all their eggs on AWS in general but serverless solutions in particular.

jethro_tell 1 day ago|||
Well, There's not going to be much because it would violate NDA, but, nothing is 'elastic'.

Somewhere, someone, has to buy a set amount of servers, based on a running capacity projection and build those into usable machines. The basis of a datacenter, is an inventory system, a dhcp server, a tftp server, and a DNS server that get used to manage the lifecycle of hardware servers. That's what everyone did at one point, and the best of them build themselves tooling.

What amazon has is built on what was available at the time both for tooling and existing systems that they'd have to integrate with. You almost certainly don't have to build anything that complex. Additionally, you can get an off the shelf DCIM that integrates with your DHCP and DNS servers and trigger ansible runners in your boot sequences that handle the lifecycle steps. It's considerably easier to do now than it was 15 years ago.

While they don't use AWS specifically for a lot of stuff, the internal tooling can still build thousands of boxes an hour though they don't really pay for UI work for that stuff.

You can put a host(s) in a fleet, tell it the various software sets you want installed and click go and you'll have a fleet when you come back, so don't think that what you're being asked to build is impossible or not being used under every single major cloud provider or VPS provider.

The slightly harder part is deciding what you're going to give to devs for a front end. Are you providing raw hosts, VMs, container fleets, all of it? how are you handling multi-zone or multi-region . . ., how are you billing or throttling resources between teams.

The beauty of this is you get a lot of stuff for free these days. You can build out a fleet, provide a few build scripts that can be pulled into some CI/CD pipeline in your code forge of choice and you don't really need to build a UI.

Provisioning tooling is hard, but it's a lot easier now that it was 15/20 years ago and all the parts are there. I've built it several times on very small teams. I would have loved to have 10 devs to build something like that, but the reality is that you can get 80% with a little glue code and a few open source servers.

sillyfluke 1 day ago|||
Amazon people often shitting on the internal messaging Chime app comes to mind.
more_corn 1 day ago|||
As an ex FAANG employee I’m more critical of my former employer because I’m aware of how much is held together with bubblegum and shell scripts.

And frankly I hold them to a higher standard so they disappoint me more often.

elmerfud 1 day ago|||
Anyone who shows up and their only contribution is to push AWS services because that's what they know, the first question I asked them is if they are capable of doing it themselves on-prem. Their answer is no or they don't know how to or some babbling on about it's more expensive and ROI and things like that I dismiss them immediately. Because those may all be true things but without the ability to do it yourself it is impossible to make an accurate assessment if AWS or another cloud service is actually a good fit for what you're doing.
travelalberta 1 day ago||
What I would give for my org to just buy an oxide rack and run everything license free on there. Shame the only people with access to our CIO are salesmen…
lamontcg 1 day ago|||
> Constant churn is simply the new big tech strategy to keep employees on their toes.

Amazon has been doing that since it was founded, certainly 2001-2006. Every year there would be stack ranking, and they'd get rid of employees and even entire departments in reorgs and layoffs.

malfist 1 day ago|||
lol, have you looked at our stock price lately? Flat YTD. And Jassy is terrible at earnings calls, he always spooks the investors.

Firing people to make new new hire grants is more expensive

paxys 1 day ago|||
Amazon stock is up 170% since the start of 2023. It is absolutely cheaper to fire employees who are owed hundreds of thousands or even millions in stock grants over the next 2-3 years and replace them with new hires. Doubly so at Amazon where vesting is all back-loaded (5/15/40/40).
apparent 1 day ago||
Doesn't that also make current employees nervous that the same will happen to them, and that their backloaded grants are at risk until they cross the finish line? It would seem pretty de-motivating, even for those who aren't let go in this RIF.
master_crab 1 day ago|||
At what point does the board and Bezos start thinking Jassy is the problem?
ethbr1 1 day ago|||
> At what point does the board and Bezos start thinking Jassy is the problem?

A company either dies a hero or lives long enough to install its own Ballmer.

randomfool 1 day ago||
Took MS 14 years to figure that one out. Even with accelerating tech timelines, Jassy has some time.
malfist 1 day ago||||
Hopefully soon. He's big innovations as CEO have been betting everything on AI and RTO
cebert 1 day ago||
That’s what most institutional investors seem to want
jalapenos 1 day ago||
We need them in the office... but also to replace them with AI...

All sounds like a sick fetish. I want to see them getting replaced - I want to see the look on their face and their archive box walk

toomuchtodo 1 day ago||
The fetish, if you can call it that in this context, is control.
lazystar 1 day ago|||
Even if they did, who would replace him? The risk of choosing someone that could end up making things even worse is pretty high.
bigbadfeline 1 day ago||
> Three months from now - Amazon hiring 50k new corporate workers.

Wanna bet? The 3-month balance of hired minus fired will be less than 20K. Those ballrooms don't pay for themselves [1].

Let's mark the calendar 01/27/26

[1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-ballroom-donors-white-hou...

ndiddy 2 days ago||
> Amazon is planning to cut as many as 30,000 corporate jobs beginning on Tuesday, as the company works to pare expenses and compensate for overhiring during the peak demand of the pandemic, according to three people familiar with the matter.

It's been over 5 years and I don't know how many rounds of Amazon layoffs since the pandemic. How are investors still fooled into thinking this is a valid excuse?

christhecaribou 2 days ago||
Because investors aren’t actually very intelligent, beyond some vague desire to “make my money bigger”.
seanmcdirmid 1 day ago||
Investors only see cutting people as a good thing, the excuse isn't for the investors, its for everyone else.
webdevver 1 day ago||
why do you assume mass firings are a bad thing? shedding 'dead weight' (morality aside) is a good thing, no?
DangitBobby 1 day ago|||
Why set morality aside?
Tadpole9181 1 day ago|||
Because they aren't and this is just borderline financial fraud? They fire tens of thousands right before an earnings call and then use that to generate future reports. Investors invest and stockholders sip champagne, then they go rehire a significant portion back, completely invalidating all that unlimited growth they promised.

Then, when the next earnings call comes they make some moronic excuse and do it all again. And the past 20 years in the domestic market should have made it abundantly clear to everyone that Wall Street are too stupid to catch on / so bought in they need it to work.

The layoff numbers keep growing too, if you notice. (Fraudulent) numbers keep going up! Yay!

----

Not to mention, what happened to making money by being innovative and changing the world? These days, everything just looks to be in the business of growth via scamming consumers of their hard-earned money. They just gave up any pretense of good products or quality service - "fuck you, give me your money" at every. single. turn.

Then all that money goes to 10 guys while everyone else breaks their back for nothing, forced to piss in bottles before going to their +10% YoY apartment to wait to die from health problems they can't afford to fix.

thewebguyd 1 day ago||
> Not to mention, what happened to making money by being innovative and changing the world?

Too slow and expensive. Why innovate when you can extract instead. It's the financialization of our economy. No one cares about or even has incentive to make better widgets, all the incentive is in financial optimization and squeezing out every last cent because the business is now a financial asset, not a product company.

Tadpole9181 1 day ago||
Exactly. And it's so obvious.

"Pandemic overhiring"? Christ, that was half a decade ago. The pandemic has been over long enough for a kid to go through high school or get a Bachelor's!

But the board will be enriched by this, and that's all that matters.

trenning 2 days ago||
All corporate or just expensive US based corporate employees? I didn’t see any specifics listed besides “pandemic era over hiring”. I think their talking points were pulled from an old 1pager this should have been “due to efficiency gains in AI”.

Earnings report in 3 days maybe they were a few metric shy.

paxys 1 day ago|
No one is going to say it but the (effective) end of the H-1B visa program means that tech companies are going to start staffing up more teams where the talent is.
toomuchtodo 1 day ago|||
Doesn’t Amazon have 10k+ H-1B workers? “How many workers on visas will they lay off” is an interesting question to understand their internal HR strategy.
master_crab 1 day ago||||
Until the government turns to dealing with offshoring. Lot more appetite in both parties to attack that business practice.
projectazorian 1 day ago||
And how would they do that? The available methods - tax penalties mainly - are too easy to dodge.
DeepYogurt 1 day ago||
make them harder to dodge
paxys 1 day ago|||
What's the "dodge" here? All these companies already have a large presence in other countries. They can adjust employee counts in each of these locations as they see fit.
projectazorian 2 minutes ago||
Let's say you make companies pay a tax per non-US employee. So they transfer the non-US employees to a contractor, and pay the contractor. This is often the default arrangement anyway. What do you do now?

You would need China-level capital controls to make this work and that is not compatible with the dollar remaining as a reserve currency. Nor will Congress or the Supreme Court go for it.

master_crab 1 day ago|||
Yup. This is not difficult and it’s a fairly bounded problem. Only a few hundred companies are capable of the level of outsourcing that is considered significant. And those companies are highly sensitive to regulatory demands
Kephael 1 day ago|||
There's no shortage of 'talent' in the US, particularly Amazon tier L4/L5 talent. Also, it was always less expensive to hire offshore regardless of H1B fees.
yodsanklai 7 hours ago||
A bigger pool of candidates gives you access to more 'talent'. Unless you design an interview process that is somehow biased towards US citizens, you'll always get better candidate on average from the rest of the world.

Perhaps it was less expensive to hire offshore, but if importing foreign talent isn't an option anymore, the tradeoff will change and US companies will have to expand their foreign offices (which I personally hope).

lateforwork 2 days ago||
It is crazy that they are still blaming "pandemic era overhiring".
JCM9 2 days ago||
That’s PR speak for “our leadership has messed up big time and this was the most convenient excuse we could come up with that doesn’t just throw our C-suite in front of the bus.”

Earnings call is this week. Expect some good tap dancing.

valcker 1 day ago|||
If the stats don't lie, they hired ~500k employees in 2020 alone, and nearly doubled their workforce between 2019 and 2021...
belter 2 days ago|||
Yes. Next earnings release is October 30, 2025 and this is to allow them to hit the numbers.

Is going to be lovely to see how they spin this as AI optimization ....

myth_drannon 2 days ago|||
And they perviously laid off 27K in 2022 because of "pandemic overhiring". I wouldn't be surprised if in a decade from now they will still be laying off because of the "pandemic overhiring"
toomuchtodo 2 days ago|||
The corp speak is free when their is no exec accountability. The beatings will continue till the stock performance improves.
saos 2 days ago||
Yeah I had to double taking reading that
zerosizedweasle 2 days ago||
Very health...very normal

Edit: Doing it right before the holidays can only mean their data on consumption / consumers is grim.

xnx 2 days ago||
> Doing it right before the holidays

Are many corporate roles seasonal?

zerosizedweasle 2 days ago||
Yeah but they wouldn't risk disruption. They live or die in large part on Holiday Sales, it's a massive part of their revenue stream. If the risk that this could cause disruption wouldn't be worth it if they expected the holiday shopping season to be busy.
christhecaribou 1 day ago||
> Yeah but they wouldn't risk disruption.

Funny, they said the same thing about AWS before layoffs last year.

belter 2 days ago||
MBAs will...MBA. Innovation is for Geeks...
jalapenos 1 day ago||
Always easier to cut costs, because even a braindead chimp can work out that 4 is less than 5.

Valuing things though, that's a dirty activity for the "technical" ones.

AznHisoka 1 day ago||
I did some analysis of every job posting from Amazon since 2020. Turns out the % of jobs going to offshored countries almost tripled since 2020: https://bloomberry.com/blog/amazons-layoffs-tell-half-the-st...
JCM9 2 days ago||
Remember these things tend to be lumpy. While that’s a bit over 10% of corporate employees depending on how you count some teams won’t get touched and thus other areas will either get blown up entirely or have layoff rates of much higher than 10%.
QuiEgo 1 day ago|
"Strive to be earth's best employer". That they put a weasel word, "strive", right in their shiny new LP tells you all you need to know.
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