Top
Best
New

Posted by coloneltcb 10/28/2025

Grokipedia and the coup against reality(www.thedissident.news)
126 points | 186 comments
tgv 10/28/2025|
I got the impression Grokipedia (what a lousy name, BTW; there's not a teenage rock band that would call itself that) has been trained on Wikipedia. I compared the entries for "Gallium Arsenide", and Grok's first sections is a copy of Wikipedia, with a an editor-like comment on top:

    Gallium arsenide

    Except where otherwise noted, data are given for materials in their standard state (at 25 °C [77 °F], 100 kPa). verify (what is Y N ?)

    Gallium arsenide (GaAs) is a III-V direct band gap semiconductor with a zinc blende crystal structure. Gallium arsenide is used in the manufacture of devices such as microwave frequency integrated circuits, monolithic microwave integrated circuits, infrared light-emitting diodes, laser diodes, solar cells and optical windows.[6] GaAs is often used as a substrate material for the epitaxial growth of other III-V semiconductors, including indium gallium arsenide, aluminum gallium arsenide and others.
The word "verify" links to https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ComparePa...

Makes me think Grok is also parsing the history and selectively leaving out edits in order to produce a result with the "correct" bias.

terflumble 10/29/2025|||
Slopipedia?
hagbard_c 10/28/2025||
Is hasn't so much been 'trained' on Wikipedia but seems to have 'copied' a large fraction of the 'less contentious' (i.e. less politically biased) content of the site and marked it as such in the footer: The content is adapted from Wikipedia, licensed under Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 4.0 License.

Here's an example of such an article, this one on Toroidal Propellers:

https://grokipedia.com/page/Toroidal_propeller

This is not surprising and quite legal given the licence conditions. It is also fitting given the stated intent of 'Grokipedia' as being a less biased knowledge source - if Wikipedia did not suffer from being overly politically biased there would not have been a need for alternatives.

The above example is not a high-quality article - it reads more like a sales brochure - but it does not show political bias. It will be interesting to see whether Grokipedia follows edits to Wikipedia content and if it 'rejects' or 'edits out' politically biased edits.

mmooss 10/29/2025|||
I'm sure you're aware of the challenges of defining 'political bias' - usually people mean 'political views that conflict with mine', and what 'people' mean, LLMs learn.

Also, do you think Musk suddenly wants to be non-biased? Musk is openly, explicitly, and aggressively biased in favor of his views and against anything that conflicts with them. Wikipedia has a NPOV rule; Musk has a My Point of View rule.

wredcoll 10/29/2025|||
Is this political bias in the room with us right now?
jmward01 10/28/2025||
This reminds me of a joke website I pondered making a few years ago 'provemeright.com'. If you are in a bar and you make an outrageous claim and don't want to back down, provemeright.com has your back! Give us 10 min and we will edit wikipedia and create a website with your 'fact' on it!... It was a funny joke when it wasn't real.
RandallBrown 10/28/2025||
I did this once to win an argument. It was probably about 18 years ago so Wikipedia was a bit slower to take things down back then.
ndsipa_pomu 10/29/2025|||
You've just reminded me of when I made up a slang term - "Clifton Sausage" - and almost persuaded a somewhat gullible friend of mine that it existed. I then went onto Urban Dictionary and got it added so that I could fully persuade him.

https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=clifton%20sa...

giarc 10/28/2025|||
Wikipedia, and it's volunteer of editors are extremely quick at checking edits. In university, we once create a page for my room mate and listed his admirable, but odd quirks. It was taken down in a matter of minutes.
bananaflag 10/28/2025|||
They are quick for checking new pages, not for checking deeply hidden updates to semi-obscure pages.
rsynnott 10/29/2025||||
It depends on the topic, honestly. They're very suspicious of _new_ pages, and of edits on _contentious_ pages, but malicious/joke edits on boring pages can sometimes survive a very long time.
Gigachad 10/28/2025||||
New pages go to a specific pending review queue. Edits on existing unprotected pages are less scrutinised
mmooss 10/29/2025|||
There have been stories of false information lasting for years.
boilerupnc 10/29/2025||
Also works for getting backstage passes to concerts! [0]

[0] https://liveforlivemusic.com/news/fan-edits-wikipedia-page-t...

mullingitover 10/28/2025||
Arguably the purpose of this site isn't to serve the public or to compile knowledge (it's not user editable at all from what I can see).

The point is to get this thing crawled and given weight by LLMs in order to poison them and bias them in the direction Musk wants: debunked race science, anti-transgender, etc etc.

HK-NC 10/28/2025|
Why didn't you say debunked anti transgender?
mullingitover 10/29/2025|||
I said "debunked race science, anti-transgender, etc etc", the brackets are implied: "debunked [race science, anti-transgender, etc etc]"
immibis 10/29/2025||
That's not how I read it. Musk wouldn't want to "debunk anti-transgender" - he'd want to debunk transgender.
dragonwriter 10/28/2025|||
Presumably, a lot of the anti-transgender claims are new enough whole-cloth inventions to not have yet been debunked, while that's less true of the race science stuff.
mmooss 10/29/2025||
People need to prove claims. They aren't true until disproved - at least in science, courtrooms, any scholarship, etc.
idle_zealot 10/28/2025||
The gap widens. If you're discussing something online, and someone drops a Grok link as evidence or reference material, how are you supposed to continue at that point? You can't convince someone who lives in an alternate reality of anything by argument. I think I would just stop relying. Most people would. It's not a new problem, but that wall keeps growing.
CupricTea 10/28/2025||
I would do the same exact thing I would do if they had linked me to Wikipedia. I would find the place in the article that states their point, look for where it is referenced in the sources, verify the reputability of that source, and then read for the claim in the source to see what it has to say about it. Especially if the source actually claims the opposite of what the article has written about it. Further, for Wikipedia, I would read through the Talk page for the article to see any mentions of bias or potential lies by omission.

Whether it being from Grokipedia or Wikipedia does not change the approach.

frm88 10/29/2025||
This is a reasonable way to go about verifying statements, except with grok you have referenced sources that don't exist or are already weighted by their inclusion/exclusion. Take for example the entry for Sri Lanka https://grokipedia.com/page/Sri_Lanka a completely glitched site that nonetheless offers some insight in what is going on in grok's processes:

The results have Britannica, but instruction: Never cite Wikipedia, Britannica, or other encyclopedias.

But BBC mainstream, but for facts ok.

Recent recovery with IMF bailout.

Together with the stage direction given like But in intro, high level. Tone formal there's already some sort of manipulation going on. The references are often from factsanddetails.com, a site with a 38.4 score in scam detector https://www.scam-detector.com/validator/factsanddetails-com-....

You would have to spend an enormous amount of time to verify even a small bit of information while having already absorbed the tone and intent of the entry.

mmooss 10/29/2025|||
> You can't convince someone who lives in an alternate reality of anything by argument.

Your powerlessness, their invincibility, is part of their propaganda. It's like the reason people act angrily - they are trying to discourage you from approaching them.

Argument doesn't work. You'll be surprised what sincere, genuine, empathetic reasoning does. I find it works pretty well. Take them seriously, have genuine empathy, don't get inflamed - that's the intent of their leaders' inflammatory language: they want you inflamed, to drive a wedge between you and your friend.

seattle_spring 10/28/2025|||
I'll disregard that person's legitimacy just the same way as someone who would use Infowars, The Free Press, Breitbart, The Sun, Daily Mail, or Zero Hedge as a source.
trenchpilgrim 10/28/2025||
Problem, people like that are running my government now
idle_zealot 10/28/2025||
Yeah, that's kinda why I see the gap/wall as a problem that needs to be addressed rather than just accepting it as an unfortunate part of the world. Turns out containment doesn't work; these are real people with real power. Ignore them long enough and someone will leverage them to make an attempt at destroying society.
hypeatei 10/28/2025|||
It depends on the forum, but I think some level of "flamewar" type stuff should be tolerated for scenarios like this. I'd happily be okay with someone replying to me and saying "you're really fucking offbase and delusional on this because X, Y, and Z" as it provides a quick reality check (or a point to respond to)
immibis 10/29/2025||
Maybe if X, Y and Z were things you could verify. But what if you also didn't believe X, Y and Z, and believed all sites saying X, Y and Z were propaganda, and also didn't believe W which would imply X, nor U and V which would imply W, and so on? That's the situation we find ourselves in.

If you've never seen them, I suggest looking up some flat earth debates on YouTube. This used to be a joke, but now there are enough people who actually believe the earth is flat to have formed a community that gets in video flamewars with round-earthers.

throw0101a 10/28/2025|||
> If you're discussing something online, and someone drops a Grok link as evidence or reference material, how are you supposed to continue at that point?

First, when arguing on the Internet, I'm often reminded of the "Someone wrong on the Internet" comic:

* https://xkcd.com/386/

Second, I think it worth remembering that you'll have better (online) mental health if you don't try to have the last word. At some point it's best to drop it. This has been true for a long time: Usenet newsreaders used to have killfiles so you could filter out certain people.

Also worth keeping in mind the 'human DoS' aspect of things:

> Sealioning (also sea-lioning and sea lioning) is a type of trolling or harassment that consists of pursuing people with relentless requests for evidence, often tangential or previously addressed, while maintaining a pretense of civility and sincerity ("I'm just trying to have a debate"), and feigning ignorance of the subject matter.[5][6][7][8] It may take the form of "incessant, bad-faith invitations to engage in debate",[9] and has been likened to a denial-of-service attack targeted at human beings.[10] The term originated with a 2014 strip of the webcomic Wondermark by David Malki,[1] which The Independent called "the most apt description of Twitter you'll ever see".[2]

* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

nailer 10/28/2025||
Same as Wikipedia: wikis aren’t references. Ask them to cite an actual source. Grokipedia seems to have more and wider references than Wikipedia.
alphabettsy 10/29/2025||
True, but more and wider references seems to imply better when I’m not sure that’s true. Wikipedia is edited and it’s sources are curated. I think that’s a good thing.
nailer 10/29/2025||
> it’s sources are curated. I think that’s a good thing.

Larry Sanger, Wikipedia's founder, does not.

https://larrysanger.org/nine-theses/#3-abolish-source-blackl...

frm88 10/29/2025||
Larry Sanger, the person who accuses Wikipedia of "smear campaigns against conservatives" [0] and begs Elon Musk to investigate whether members of the administration are contributing to Wikipedia [1] and to immediately defund them. That Larry Sanger.

[0] https://larrysanger.org/2023/06/how-wikipedia-smears-conserv...

[1] https://nypost.com/2025/03/07/media/wikipedia-co-founder-cal...

nailer 10/29/2025||
Yes. You can find his accusations of smear campaigns against conservatives and his evidence to support it in the link in the comment you just replied to.

Also:

“Wikipedia co-founder here. May I ask you to determine what branches of the U.S. government—if any!—have employees paid to edit, monitor, update, lobby, etc., WIkipedia?”

Is an excellent question.

ChrisArchitect 10/28/2025||
Related:

Grokipedia by xAI has just launched with 885,279 articles

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=45726459

jauntywundrkind 10/28/2025||
2018 has a lovely progression of articles 'are we living in ___&'s world now', that went from George Orwell to Aldous Huxley to finally Philip K Dick (PKD).

And Henry Farrell nailed it with the PKD article. Dick was obsessed with fake humans, with reality being taken over by all manner of camouflaged invader or alternate reality weirdo coming in and co-opting our reality away from us. https://www.bostonreview.net/articles/henry-farrell-philip-k...

It's a glorious article. And it's totally the sicko shit happening right here. Grokipedia will almost certainly never hold itself to any real standards, will source (if they source at all) the most absurd ridiculous reality window shopped bottom of the barrel garbage, from horrendous sources. Stealing Wikipedia then probably using AI to rewrite a quarter of it to some bias seems absurdly likely.

"Reality shopping on the internet" has become such a major major effort. And Grokipedia is striving to become exactly such an appealing reality, a bespoke weird racist meanspirited place that confirms the invading forces reality against can do human spirit and hope and inclusion and possibility.

Philip K. Dick and the Fake Humans does so much to capture what is alas so much defining aspects of our time: the slide away from consensual believable reality and into the rabbit hole weirdness and conspiracy theory universes. That the Internet has unchained, taken what would be normal humans & turned them into fakes. This struggle is going to keep going. I wish these fakers all the failure and dejectedment their window shopped view of the world that their fake human perspective here deserves; I hope this infodump is burned down in the future by people happy to see this absurd farce against reality put to an end.

cadamsdotcom 10/29/2025||
Why don’t people just ignore Musk?
meheleventyone 10/29/2025||
He’s the richest man in the world and actively funding the far right in several countries? To a lot of people he’s not a quirky tech oligarch but an existential threat.
AaronAPU 10/29/2025||
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Minutes_Hate

or if you prefer

https://grokipedia.com/page/Two_Minutes_Hate

gattis 10/29/2025||
Might make things awkward but grokipedia seems way more informative on this topic to me. But I guess I am unfamiliar with the topic so half of it could be hallucination. Curious if anyone familiar with this subject wants to weigh in?
quotemstr 10/28/2025||
Leaving culture war articles aside, I think having on other subjects, a diversity of perspectives is legitimate. Consider a personal interest of mine, the dark ages in Europe after the fall of the western Roman empire.

The Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Ages_(historiography)) is a one-sided presentation that begins with denying the historical reality of a period called "the dark ages", continues with a history of the term itself, and concludes with a brief section on non-academic use of the term and reiterates the claim that the periodization is a "myth of popular culture". The article barely mentions the events of the period.

If you read the Grokipedia article on the same subject (https://grokipedia.com/page/Dark_Ages_(historiography)), you'll find not only meta-discussion of the origins of the term, but also in-depth exploration of the events of the period, the causes of the decline in living standards, and arguments from prominent scholars on both sides of the debate about the utility of labeling this period a "dark age".

The Wikipedia article doesn't mention Ward-Perkins, a prominent scholar in the camp arguing that the dark ages represented real material decline. The Grokipedia article cites him extensively.

The difference is interesting because Grokipedia's presentation is much closer to the truth. The dark ages really were in fact dark. In some parts of Europe, literacy itself was almost lost. Trade did collapse. Living standards did fall. We have tons of archaeological and literary evidence attesting to this decline. Tabooing the term "dark ages" does nothing to deepen our understanding.

Yet the Wikipedia article is one-sided because, frankly, its editors see themselves as enforcers of academic orthodoxy.

There are thousands of disputed subjects like this outside the culture war everyone gets worked up about. It really is the case that Wikipedia presents one side of live academic conflicts and gatekeeps sources to minimize heterodox perspectives -- again, all having nothing to do with mechahitler or the culture war or whatever.

I'm glad there's more epistemic competition in the world now.

pl-94 10/29/2025||
I just read the Wikipedia page, and it does not seem to fit your analysis. They present the origin on the term, what it means, and then disclose that a consensus among scholars is to reject the term nowadays. They disclose also that some recent scholars have found it appropriate and cite one of them.

On the other hand, Grokipedia seems very biased to me. “This historiographical tension underscores broader tensions between romanticized medievalism and data-driven assessments of civilizational trajectories.” What a pejorative criticism! If you don’t think that dark age is an appropriate term, you are not data driven and you are just too sensitive??

On subject that I don’t know much about, I am quite happy to know the scientific consensus. Discussions on Wikipedia do an amazing job to help me figure out what’s going on.

GeoAtreides 10/29/2025|||
>its editors see themselves as enforcers of academic orthodoxy.

Correct, that's exactly what I want from encyclopedia, the current academic consensus on a topic. Digging deeper on a topic requires moving to other sources, like books and specialized literature.

wredcoll 10/29/2025||
> The Wikipedia article doesn't mention Ward-Perkins, a prominent scholar in the camp arguing that the dark ages represented real material decline. The Grokipedia article cites him extensively.

Wikipedia is not supposed to be an academic journal where all sorts of competing views are put forth and debated.

I do not go to wikipedia to learn the 15 different alternative theories about [subject], I want to learn what the prevailing scientific consensus is.

Will that consensus sometimes be wrong? Undoubtedly. It's nearly guaranteed to happen at some point.

That doesn't mean a system that records the current consensus is wrong in any way.

This is how the article on Earth handles flat earth/geocentrism:

> Scientific investigation has resulted in several culturally transformative shifts in people's view of the planet. Initial belief in a flat Earth was gradually displaced in Ancient Greece by the idea of a spherical Earth, which was attributed to both the philosophers Pythagoras and Parmenides.[288][289] Earth was generally believed to be the center of the universe until the 16th century, when scientists first concluded that it was a moving object, one of the planets of the Solar System.[290]

We don't need to repeat 100 of years of arguments and attempts at science that were ultimately incorrect, we can just note that at one point the consensus was different and go on talking about what the current one is.

> The difference is interesting because Grokipedia's presentation is much closer to the truth. The dark ages really were in fact dark. In some parts of Europe, literacy itself was almost lost. Trade did collapse. Living standards did fall. We have tons of archaeological and literary evidence attesting to this decline. Tabooing the term "dark ages" does nothing to deepen our understanding.

As it happens, The Dark Ages is also one of my Special Interests and the term is reductive to the point of useless. It's a very loaded word that promotes a biased view of history that is, for the most part, meaningfully incorrect.

We can measure all sorts of things (with varying degree of accuracies) about "society" and then choose a specific set of "good ones" and "bad ones" but who gets to make those choices? And what specific geographic region are we measuring them?

If average literacy goes down in rome but up in paris, what does that prove? Is one darker than the other?

The term Dark Ages was invented solely to make the renaissance people feel special. It only exists as a term of disparagement to compare against the supposedly better time period. It's not some kind of objective term that people came up with after studying the times and places involved.

Like, as a general thing, it's useful to have words that refer to periods of time that other people understand. Saying "the middle ages" or "the classical age" is pretty vague but at least it more or less communicates something useful to most people. If we really want to call a period of time "the dark ages" and everyone agrees that this is the standard nomenclature, this isn't the worst thing in the world.

But "dark ages" is intended to be a very prejudicial term that is way less factual than its name would imply.

quotemstr 10/29/2025||
> As it happens, The Dark Ages is also one of my Special Interests and the term is reductive to the point of useless. It's a very loaded word that promotes a biased view of history that is, for the most part, meaningfully incorrect.

Industrial output, long-distance trade, literacy, artistic quality (yes, I know it's subjective. I don't care: if it hadn't collapsed the Grotesque style wouldn't have been a revolution), and tons of other things collapsed. Records became extremely spotty. There's no reliable descent from antiquity for a reason. By the fifth century, what we'd call serfdom was common. People were legally bound to their parent's professions. Free movement was restricted. Spoliation was universal because new high-quality materials couldn't be sourced at any price.

Oh, and almost the entire corpus of classical literature was lost.

Yes, the dark ages were real, miserable, and significant, and I don't care for the modern revisionism on the subject. You could argue about the speed of the decline and whether it really got going in the third or the fifth centuries, or whether it might have been averted without the Gothic Wars wrecking what was left of already-fragile Mediterranean trade, but that there was a civilizational nadir in western Europe around the end of the first millennium is beyond honest dispute.

The perspective you've adopted is exactly the one that needs to respond to intellectual competition, because this nonsense about "oh, there was just a change in civilization style and we don't know which is better so don't judge" is infuriating and gaslights the public.

wredcoll 10/30/2025||
> The perspective you've adopted is exactly the one that needs to respond to intellectual competition, because this nonsense about "oh, there was just a change in civilization style and we don't know which is better so don't judge" is infuriating and gaslights the public.

I absolutely can and will make moral value judgements about civilizational statuses. Lower literacy rates is bad! Public healthcare is good!

The problem is that the world is far more complicated than the term "dark ages" accurately reflects. There sure was a reduction in some types of trade and some literacy rates in some specific areas at some specific times.

Constantinople was having a fine old time in 450c.e. for example and their literacy rates hadn't changed meaningfully.

> By the fifth century, what we'd call serfdom was common

Yes? It was also common in the 4th century, 3rd century, 2nd century, 1st century... you get the idea.

I looked up the "bound to parent professions" and the first reference I can find is to emperor Diocletian around 280c.e., I admit I'm not sure if that counts as part of your dark ages.

> Oh, and almost the entire corpus of classical literature was lost.

The "corpus of literature" was constantly being lost before the invention of the printing press.

Look, talking about history (and in general) requires some degree of generalization and vagueness. We literally don't have time to cover every single detail, so we use commonly understood if slightly inaccurate terms like "roman empire" to refer to complicated subjects. "Dark Ages" is similar.

It doesn't help that the term "Dark Ages" was invented specifically to make Rome/Greece and the Renaissance ages look better. It's hardly an unbiased term.

But the overall point is that if you actually look at history, 900 c.e. is really truly not that much different from 500 c.e. or 1200 c.e.

manx 10/28/2025||
Wouldn't it make sense to have these wikipedias created by different llms, and compare them to expose their biases?
incomingpain 10/29/2025|
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Systemic_bias

>This page in a nutshell: Wikipedia aims for a neutral point of view, but it falls short due to systemic bias caused by the narrow demographics of its editing community. This bias results in underrepresentation of Global South perspectives, limited access individuals, and women, among others.

Wikipedia admits it's systemic bias. You cant admit there's a problem of bias for years and do nothing about it. It's going to spawn alternatives that attempt to fix the bias.

Yesterday I showed Acupuncture's article on Grokipedia was significantly superior, shockingly better than wikipedia.

I can show an example of where Grokipedia is worse:

https://grokipedia.com/page/Kfar_Aza_massacre

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kfar_Aza_massacre

Wikipedia is superior. Grokipedia's fail in my mind comes with the wording of: "Militants engaged in cold-blooded killing of entire households"

Which while factually correct, it's the wrong way to say it for neutrality. But it's not like Grokipedia was ever pushing some sort of "unreality" on the subject.

https://www.trackingai.org/political-test

Grok is left-wing aligned. The allegation that Grok is somehow far-right and pushing false narratives doesnt stand up.

wredcoll 10/29/2025|
> his bias results in underrepresentation of Global South perspectives, limited access individuals, and women, among others.

And grok is addressing this... how, precisely?

I looked up your cite, this is the twitter thingy:

> GROKIPEDIA IS ALREADY MORE ACCURATE THAN WIKIPEDIA AND IT SHOWS

> Grokipedia just proved why it is rewriting how knowledge works online. Look at how it covers acupuncture compared to Wikipedia.

> Grokipedia explains the practice as an ancient Chinese medical system over two thousand years old, describing how it works, what practitioners believe, and what science says about its results.

> Wikipedia opens by calling it pseudoscience and quackery before even defining it.

> One informs you, the other attacks.

> Grokipedia delivers balanced facts while Wikipedia delivers bias.

Acupuncture related techniques do (I assume) go back 2000 years. They're also pseudoscience with no real evidence behind them. Both things can be true.

More comments...