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Posted by ForHackernews 2 days ago

SailfishOS: A Linux-based European alternative to dominant mobile OSes(sailfishos.org)
351 points | 165 commentspage 2
TheAceOfHearts 2 days ago|
Many years ago I backed the Jolla Tablet, which never shipped and they never gave me a refund. At the time the company kept pretending like things were perfectly fine with every update right until they let everyone know that the project was being cancelled. There was zero transparency and accountability, and from that day I vowed to never support this company ever again. I would've been fine if the project had failed and they had been transparent and honest about their ongoing struggles with every update, but the complete lack of transparency was too much for me.

I don't know if the values and leadership at Jolla have changed since then, but it's not a company that I would trust to deliver and communicate honestly in good faith.

raron 2 days ago||
Not just the lack of transparency, they went bankrupt after the tablet fiasco (never refunded most of the people) and bought by some investment firm connections to the Russian state (not the thing you want from a privacy-friendly product / system) what they tried to keep secret.

AFAIK they have bought by some other company (again) since then, but they have basically nothing. Most of their Sailfish OS is actually closed source (like AOSP vs all the apps from Google), they don't have any hardware, they just re-flash some phone from Sony.

I had high hopes for them, but now wouldn't even touch them with a stick. Pixel with GrapheneOS seems to be a much better choice and maybe even closer to their original ideologies.

fractallyte 2 days ago||
And yet Sailfish is a mature mobile OS, sufficient in many cases to be a daily driver, and an essential EU-based alternative to the Apple/Google monopoly. So there's that...

On a more superficial front, the UI is far ahead of both iOS and Android. Complaining about it being closed-source misses the point: the platform is Linux, and other than the proprietary front-end, everything else in Sailfish is wide open to hacking and independent development. So there's that too...

dredmorbius 2 days ago|||
I'm not familiar with the background here.

There was a blog post committing to refunds given sufficient cashflow, posted in 2017:

<https://blog.jolla.com/summer-2017-ceo-update/>

HN discussion: <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14637748>

It does appear that Jolla has shipped other products (SailfishOS, the Jolla Phone in 2013, some tablets, and others, see Wikipedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jolla#Sailfish_OS_products>).

Since 2017 the company has gone through bankruptcy and re-launched.

It should be remembered that kickstarter / crowdfunded ventures, as with any other, are speculative and risky. A good-faith effort to deliver on spec is itself credible, and the landscape is littered with the husks of far more failures, especially in the mobile space, including from former (and current) giants: RIM, Palm, Microsoft, Mozilla, Canonical, off the top of my head). Google and Apple are the only present significant OS options standing, Apple (again) and Samsung dominate hardware, though there's increasing competition largely from China.

not_another_hat 2 days ago|||
I can't recall how many tablets were shipped, but I was lucky enough to get mine.
dman 2 days ago|||
I never got a refund or a tablet. They were very unprofessional through the entire situation.
raphman 2 days ago|||
FWIW, I actually received my Jolla Tablet (albeit delayed). Your are right that Jolla is sometimes less transparent and professional than one would expect. However, I realize that Jolla is also under much more scrutiny by the community than other tech companies, and some people demand ridiculous levels of transparency/quality/features.
mardifoufs 2 days ago||
I don't think that expecting to get the product you pay for (even if it's just crowdfunding) is too much? Or putting them under too much scrutiny? I don't think people expect less from any other tech company? It's just really basic stuff.
tho234i234798 2 days ago||
I don't mean be rude, but outside the SV bubble, funding is extremely hard and when companies are on the brink "ethics" becomes a luxury you can't really afford.

That's not an argument for not complaining against what was done, but given what they're doing - fighting two Goliaths that have 10000x the resources, I just wish people would give them another chance.

https://blog.jolla.com/jolla-tablet-closure/

pxc 2 days ago||
I used Sailfish ten years ago or more, and loved it. But I gave up hope on getting it to run on many devices, as well as access to a good Android emulation layer that I could use for "utility" apps like Uber or whatever.

My impression was that this platform was only becoming less and less viable. Other problems: it's proprietary and only really runs well on any phone you've ever heard of if it's on top of an Android kernel with some kind of hardware abstraction layer.

m4rtink 2 days ago||
The Android emulation layer is quite good and it runs on many mass market Xperia phones from Sony:

https://docs.sailfishos.org/Support/Supported_Devices/

It is not using Android kernel - it uses a Linux kernel with android features enabled and compile time & runs Android binary drivers for hardware that has no native Linux driver via a binary adaptation layer called libhybris (also used by some Ubuntu Touch devices).

The Android emulation layer nowadays runs in a container that talks to the Android bits in the kernel and to the blobs via libhybris.

prmoustache 2 days ago||
afaik Uber can be used perfectly with the website.
KeyBoardG 2 days ago||
I currently have hopes / am watching Apostrophy who are building on top of Graphene but at least they acknowledge that people need Google Play and are attempting to support that while not sacrificing the entire device to privacy issues. https://www.apostrophy.ch
fractallyte 2 days ago|
Only Android needs Google Play. The thrust of this post is that there's a third alternative which is neither iOS nor Android - and that's a killer feature.

Now it's up to capricious EU leadership whether to support a sovereign OS, including mandating that banks and other institutions open up their requirements to use solely US-controlled devices.

ktosobcy 1 day ago||
Huge problem (for me) with SaifishOS is… annoying UI. I know that a lot of people swear by swipe navigation but it's just darn inconvenient and imprecise (or rather - require a lot of precission to select desired option)… I tried to get used to it for a long time and I simply couldn't. Having to pay effin lot of attention each time I tried to do anything with the phone was simply to much…
shmerl 2 days ago||
They should open source their UI layer.
fractallyte 2 days ago|
Why? It's a commercial venture - how would they feed their developers?
shmerl 2 days ago||
I doubt that's their way of feeding them. At one point they explicitly said they'll do it, but never did.
poetaster 2 days ago||
Not true. Gradual but slow progress. https://github.com/sailfishos

They also recently split the automobile UI part off from the Phone bits. That joint work was part of the problem for FOSSing everything, since they have deals with Car manufacturers which depend on their IP.

andy99 2 days ago||
I tried this briefly on a pine phone ~2 years ago as I was going through the different options trying to see if there was something viable. It was useless then, the phone barely worked, and I’m pretty low maintenance, I basically just wanted mobile date, wifi, email, and browser. I don’t really remember sailfish specifically as I was quickly cycling thought the options but I know I tried it and found it unsuitable.

P.S. unless there is a sailfish browser that ships separately with a different OS and I’m remembering that.

P.P.S. I would love a Linux phone that lets me take calls and has mobile data, wifi, web browsing and GPS/navigation. I don’t care about apps other than navigation. AFAIK there is not currently something that fits the bill and works out of the box.

linmob 1 day ago||
Initially, due to the PinePhone not using libhybris but a mainline kernel, the SailfishOS browser and mail app was not working at all. At least the browser was fixed; mail later on AFAIR too. Generally, judging an OS that has officially supported hardware by an unfinished community port is not something I would call fair or useful ;-)
all2323 2 days ago|||
Ubuntu Touch does all of this. https://www.ubuntu-touch.io/
m4rtink 2 days ago||
The Sailfish browser is using Firefox rendering core BTW, so you might have used it elsewhere. ;-)
stephen_g 2 days ago||
From other comments in this thread though it seems to be stuck on quite old versions of ESR though. Seems like it took until about September 2024 to go from a mid-2020 version (78) to a late-2021 version (91) according to this [1].

I don’t have any first-hand experience but from the comment that linked that blog, and the site itself, it’s not clear whether the browser engine has been updated since…

1. https://www.flypig.co.uk/?to=gecko&list_id=975&list=gecko

m4rtink 2 days ago||
Afaik the problem is the lack of embedding API in the Firefox core, so they have to adapt their patches every time they need to update Firefox version.

This is also why you see Chome being used as a core in all kinds of applications and frameworks - AFAIK it has the necessary API for this.

Wicher 1 day ago||
There's GeckoView which one'd use for embedding Firefox in an Android app. Can't use that on Sailfish OS of course, but it'd help in figuring out what of core Firefox to bind to to make a similar layer.
m4rtink 1 day ago||
Yeah, don't know the details of the GeckoView API but looks like its going in the right direction to help what Sailfish OS needs. :)
devjab 2 days ago||
As cool as this is there won't be an European alternative as long as all the apps you'd want to use on a smartphone require either Google Play or the Apple App store.
nicce 2 days ago||
Huawei just created new OS and removed all traces of Android and Linux. Just like that. If there is will, it is possible.
fabrice_d 2 days ago|||
No, the phone variant of HarmonyOS runs on top of a Linux kernel.
rzerowan 2 days ago|||
I believe thats being phased out slowly to be native app only with their multidevice HarmonyOSNext (mobile/pc). Once the major apps move over , last bits of linux will be excised.
nicce 2 days ago|||
Nope, the new version removed it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HarmonyOS_NEXT

fabrice_d 2 days ago||
Indeed, I did not see that!
kelnos 2 days ago||||
Can it run all of the kinds of apps that people (in the EU/US markets, which is relevant to the discussion at hand) actually want to run? SalifishOS doesn't even do that, at least not for me.
jajuuka 2 days ago||
If I remember correctly they have had a translation layer for android apps since they launched. But it's similar to what Apple has done with Rosetta 2 where it getting phased out for native apps only.
kube-system 2 days ago||||
The will to create an OS is 0.0001% of the problem. There are tens of thousands of applications that people need to use that exist only for iPhone and Android.

There are dozens of functional mobile OSes. And OS isn’t useful unless it has application support for the tasks people want to accomplish, though.

kaoD 2 days ago|||
...if there is will, a nice state sponsor and an already existing effective infrastructure.

Europe has none of the 3.

m4rtink 2 days ago|||
Aren't you basically describing a chicken and egg problem?
devjab 2 days ago||
I think it's more of an EU problem. We have so many public apps that rely on two big American tech companies solely because the EU has yet to figure out an alternative app store with enough security to make those apps available. This likely made sense 10 years ago, but today with all the talk about digital sovereignty it's frankly a little weak. It's not the OS that is the issue though, I could use graphene or similar just fine, but they wouldn't let me run a single of the apps that are the sole reason I have a smartphone. Well.. maybe the Microsoft authenticator?

I mean, I have to write exit strategies from Azure because the EU might demand our industry to leave non-EU infra. Yet ironically the digital company ID I would need to sign new contracts with within Europe aren't available without one of the two app stores. It's not that I can't sign those contracts without the ID, but I'd probably have to go to Germany in person.

miohtama 1 day ago||
There are exit strategies, but the EU is spineless to execute them. Just like with defence.
hkt 2 days ago|||
It runs Android apps. Presumably, it has access to the Play store in some capacity, or a viable alternative.
rchaud 2 days ago||
Access to the Play Store requires the proprietary Google Play Services code, so I doubt this has it. The alternative would be installing apps via APK files.
rst 2 days ago||||
According to Wikipedia,there are apps that provide an emulated Android environment ("Easy Abroad", "Droitong"), they're incomplete and glitchy, and a lot of important apps won't run at all (including banking apps and streaming services).
poetaster 2 days ago|||
People often use micro-g and co.
dredmorbius 2 days ago|||
The EU can address that issue through regulation and competition requirements.
muyuu 2 days ago||
it does run some sort of Android emulation layer
zb3 2 days ago||
They're about to make a new phone: https://forum.sailfishos.org/t/next-gen-jolla-phone/23882
spankibalt 2 days ago||
The voting results/behavior makes one weep. "Winner was Fingerprint after 9 rounds" in the additional wishlist category.
beefnugs 2 days ago||
Damn i know we need this competition hard, but also needs so much scrutiny about who is running it. For some reason i had written this os off a few years ago i dont even remember why now
willi59549879 2 days ago||
Sailfish OS looks nice. but i am not sure if their strategie for applications is the way to go. Applications need to be specifically built for Sailfish OS with their IDE which uses Qt.

That means you can't run just any linux software on it.

usr1106 2 days ago||
You can run any CLI software in the terminal emulator ;) You might need to build it, if it is so rare that no binary is readibly available.

Yeah, with GUIs thats a different story...

poetaster 2 days ago||
Nope. You can use SDL2, which is behind the Godot port for Sailfish (3.5 still). Supertuxcart, Openlara a bunch of games stuff is viable. There is an active Lua Love porter and and and ...
Paianni 2 days ago|
After the tablet fiasco in 2015 they've never been able to afford to staff their OS properly; the web browser engine still lags behind Firefox by a long way (using Gecko 91 currently).
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