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Posted by fanf2 4 days ago

Stop 'reactions' to email by adding a postfix header (2024)(neilzone.co.uk)
62 points | 70 comments
snowwrestler 4 days ago|
We use MS365 at work and colleagues “react” in Outlook with thumbs-up to my emails sometimes. Fine, I guess it is a lightweight way to signal support or agreement. Not too different from reactions in Teams or Slack.

BUT… there is a keyboard shortcut to do it, apparently, that is not too far from my typical typing pattern. Because sometimes I end up sending a thumbs-up reaction email when I did not mean to.

This is incredibly awkward when it goes to some random external partner or vendor. And especially when I’m in the process of drafting a serious reply. One time a vendor saw from me: thumbs-up email, thumbs-up email, serious email dinging them for messing something up. The first two were accidents and could not be stopped or recalled.

I asked our IT team and apparently there is no MS setting to prevent these email reactions from going external. Which is insane because the internal/external email boundary is so fundamental to the MS365 value prop and security model.

nephanth 4 days ago||
This feels like something that should be opt-in, not opt-out. It feels trivial to have all clients that support it send a header stating they do, and it is ridiculous that the default is to allow sending reacts to clients that don't support them
kjs3 4 days ago||
It's a embrace-extend-extiguish play like the old days. Add a 'feature' that doesn't technically break the rules (or only does a little), get your users used to it (by making it the default, opt-out, etc) and hope that your users will pressure people not using your product to move. "What do you mean you didn't see my email reaction? That's the best feature in the whole world. You should really switch to outlook, etc.". See: every M$-only feature in IE.
dpark 4 days ago||
How is this argument not just “no one should ever implement new features”?

I don’t really care for the Outlook reactions and find them out of place, but this implementation doesn’t break anyone else. It’s also exactly how Apple implemented reactions being sent to SMS recipients.

Disclosure: I work at Microsoft.

kjs3 4 days ago||
Yes, we got the "you're just a luddite that hates progress" sophistry from you guys in the IE days (and before). "We're doing the same thing as Apple" isn't a particularly persuasive counter. I always appreciated Balmer in that that he didn't waste time bullshitting anyone that he was trying to create walled gardens for M$ products by cooping standards.
Hizonner 4 days ago|||
This feels like something that should not exist, period. For any email important enough to actually send, asking people to guess what a single-emoji "reaction" actually means is a recipe for bad communication.
whatevaa 4 days ago||
Even in outlook those reactions look out of place.
dtgriscom 4 days ago||
I'd like the same option with texting. It's a pain to fish my phone out of my pocket just to see a "thumbs up" emoji.

(First world problems...)

quietbritishjim 4 days ago||
If they didn't have thumbs up as an option, they'd almost certainly feel compelled to send an actual text to show agreement. Then you have to debate whether you need to send a text back to acknowledge their agreement. Thumbs up emojis are great! They mean: I'm happy for this conversation to finish now.
whatevaa 4 days ago|||
Thumbs up emoji can be considered as legal agreement (if you had previous agreements made same way), so it is no different than any other acknowledgment.

See case of farmer having to pay penalty for not delivering on agreement, agreed over a messaging platform with a thumbs up emoji.

idiotsecant 4 days ago||
Why? It's like an ACK.
bravetraveler 4 days ago||
UDP vs TCP, might not care to know it was received. It may be evident/insignificant... later.
whatevaa 4 days ago||
How it is different than if somebody responded "ok" or "sure" or any other similar message? Or is it also unwanted? How is the other side supposed to know that?
bravetraveler 4 days ago||
I wouldn't say it's much different, also unwanted in certain contexts. Perhaps not know, infer/make a judgement call. It's just as fair to consider it 'unreasonable' as it is 'assumed'; many things can be true.

The first world solution to their problem is Do-not-Disturb mode :P To keep the networking aspect: it's QoS! Helps me, can only blame myself for looking.

Avamander 4 days ago||
Don't worry, it's also probably going to come to other MUAs: https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc9078.html
wiether 4 days ago||
If it become standardized, it would be less annoying: you wouldn't receive shallow emails telling you that someone added an reaction to your email.

You would receive _something_ that your client could manage or drop.

Avamander 4 days ago||
Oh yes, absolutely. I just suspect that the author of the blogpost wouldn't want even standardised reactions.
kstrauser 4 days ago||
Alternatively, report those emails as spam. Teach that great Bayes in the cloud that they’re unwanted.
dan_linder 4 days ago|
Upvoted because that’s about the only way to get the message away.

But having said that, please don’t do that (use the “report spam” as a method to stop one specific action).

I was the technical lead for a small hobbyist group for an American sports car which was 100% mailing-list since it started in 1994. I joined the mailing list in 1996, and was asked to help (and finally take over) as the technical lead around 2004.

We had spam traffic pretty well handled with multiple opt-in confirmations: at sign-up, and yearly on the sign-in date. And every email had the proper headers for mailing lists, each subject line was prepended with “[TheNameOfTheList]”, as well as a human readable block of text at the bottom of each email with the proper way to sign out.

With all that going on, we were really solid until about 2015 or so.

Somewhere between there and the early 2020’s we started getting silently blackholed more and more by the largest email handlers (at the time, AT&T, Yahoo, and GMail). Long time subscribers would email me directly and I’d scour the mailing list system for a hint of what happened.

Finally through a friend of a friend we got hooked up with another person inside one of those mail handlers. They couldn’t confirm our mailing list specifically, but they said that even a single “mark as spam” report by any of their email users would blackhole the entire email for ALL of their users. No notification to us, no notification to the other users, just emails went missing.

By the time we determined what was going on, and having nobody at those companies to work with, we had dropped from a high of well over 4K users to below 300. We tried switching over to a Google Groups backed mailing list (around 2022), but by then the damage had been done and the few that still remained were not all that interested in being participants. I don’t think the GGroups list has had a message (aside from the “Hey, is this list still on?” test emails) in years.

So, please refrain from using the “mark as spam” for anything but pure SPAM emails.

kstrauser 4 days ago||
I self-hosted email long enough to have done that song and dance too many times. It sucks.

And in this case, it makes me want to lean harder into it. If suddenly Outlook users, especially ones using enterprise hosted Exchange, suddenly can’t email people, then maybe this crap might get fixed. No one cares when hyper aggressive spam policies hurt you and me. They might care when it affects enterprises.

ifh-hn 4 days ago||
Could this not be solved by setting up a file that responds to the alt-text email with something like: reaction not received, send a real email cheers.
clort 4 days ago||
No, that does not solve the issue. You still receive 'reaction' emails but in addition, the user you emailed in the first place gets an irritating email and they suppose that you are a dick. They are in some way correct, since they likely did not know they had sent an irritating email but you do.

The truth is, this is just another embrace-extend-extinguish strategy by Microsoft. Their business ethos is, and has been for decades, to make it irritating to use software not written, and controlled, by themselves.

amiga386 4 days ago|||
> the user you emailed in the first place gets an irritating email and they suppose that you are a dick

Funny you should say that. I think that people who cause me to recieve an irritating email with nothing more than "like [person] reacted to your message" are dicks. They are sending me an email phrased like there's some third-party intermediary keeping me at arms length e.g. "Mr Blenkinsop wishes it be known that he is aware of your recent correspondance and is approving of its tone."

If you can't fix the real problem - Microsoft and their gamification of email - you can correct the views of people who think that "liking" an email is OK, which to be clear it is not. Email is not a chat client. Use words to communicate to people, and if you don't think a "reaction" merits words, then don't send one.

You need a similarly hostile user education to stop thoughtless people wasting your time in chat clients -- the moment they say "hello", and then nothing else, send them a link to https://nohello.net/ to let them know they have just been rude and inconsiderate.

Microsoft has prior history for inventing Microsoft-only shit that fucks up other mail ecosystems: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_Neutral_Encapsulatio...

dpark 4 days ago||
> Email is not a chat client. Use words to communicate to people, and if you don't think a "reaction" merits words, then don't send one.

shakes fist at clouds

Seriously, though, this argument seems kind of silly. Do you not usually use words to chat? It’s fine that you don’t like this in your email but your reasoning is specious. “Chat is for emojis. Email is for words.”

amiga386 3 days ago|||
Whether I like it or not, it seems that the modern chat client (e.g. Discord or Slack, not IRC) has developed the expectance that you "react" to chat messages as they happen - because there's a mental model that you're literally "chatting" with someone, and not showing you're listening is a faux pas, so the minimum effort response is a "react", especially thumbs-up just to mean "I saw this message and have no further comment on it"

You can of course chat in email, but it's unusual, there's usually a higher bar to responding; it would be madness if every email had everyone else in the chain send another email saying "I've read this", so that's not what people do. I only see "I've read this" emails if the penultimate email concluded the topic and that was all that's left to say. Hence why it's unwelcome to bring the habits of chat clients to email.

ifh-hn 4 days ago|||
I don't think it is specious. Email == electronic mail, if someone sent you a letter you'd not send a reaction back, you'd sent a reply letter. But companies have been trying for years to make email more like a chat app. Threads come to mind. I I prefer folders over tags too.
dpark 4 days ago||
Sorry, no. You’re trying to carve out some special use case for email as if it’s primary use is formal communication. Email is used for everything from formal business communication to friendly chats to fwd:fwd:fwd: Grandma’s chain letters.

On the other side, text messages are essentially just small emails and your argument against “reactions” applies equally.

ifh-hn 4 days ago||
We'll have to agree to disagree. For me, and the way I use these things, emails are formal, text/chat is informal. I've never and will never use email like a chat.

If someone was attempting to use email as such with me, they'd likely be getting no reaction at all.

ifh-hn 4 days ago||||
Haha, nearly all the people willing to email me likely know I'm a dick.
dpark 4 days ago|||
What is the “extinguish” here?
clort 4 days ago||
other email services
dpark 4 days ago||
And exactly how would this ever extinguish other email services?
clort 4 days ago||
So, its a long game - make it generally irritating for people to use other services. Every time they introduce a feature, make it opaque and difficult to implement. Other services, other MUA's have a hard time keeping up. The users get frustrated that things dont work: "I don't get these stupid emails in Outlook" "LibreOffice doesn't display my document the same" "Firefox doesn't show the page properly" => "Can we just use Outlook/Word/Edge"
dpark 3 days ago||
> Every time they introduce a feature, make it opaque and difficult to implement.

Is that the case here? It sounds from my limited understanding like this is not difficult to implement and is even easier to turn off.

I understand the EEE model and the concerns with it. I just don’t think this fits that model. This is just a feature.

EagnaIonat 4 days ago||
Then I could look forward to the 14 response email thread containing just a thumbs up.
rwmj 4 days ago||
I got a hilarious email from an MS Exchange sender the other day which was attempting to "Recall" an email that the sender had just sent. Yeah, nope, that's not how Mutt + fetchmail works.
DANmode 4 days ago|
How bad was the email?
hoistbypetard 4 days ago||
I used to work with people who would reply, editing the subject line to end with something like " ACK. <eom>"

These "reaction" message seem about the same as that, and are no more or less annoying. If it became disruptive, I'd rather ask people to stop than fiddle with my server configuration to try to make it stop.

rs186 4 days ago|
These custom email headers give me the vibe of vendor-prefixed CSS extensions like -moz- or -webkit-, except much worse.
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